POINTS MATCH: logan vs cap

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yeah, sure. Based on Baron Zemo scan?

Now that's very interesting. Examples of these "superior" feats?

Whatever, Cap does more blocking than dodging anyway.

Cap dodging a bullet AFTER it's fired from point-blank range and throwing his shield.

He does both more often.

Originally posted by steverules_2
I remember a wolverine issue, guest starring captain America, wolverine jumped towards cap (claws out) and coulda killed cap there and then, and this wasn't from behind cap saw wolverine coming and just stood there looking scared, wolverine saved cap from some invisible ninja who was about to kill cap...just saying, cap wasn't so fast then

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Among others.

Cap dodging a bullet AFTER it's fired from point-blank range and throwing his shield.

He does both more often.

That be reflex, not speed. Also got scan or issue number? Not to mention Logan dodge bullets after they were fired as well from a sitting possion in a chair.

When did doing something more make you better?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Among others.

Cap dodging a bullet AFTER it's fired from point-blank range and throwing his shield.

He does both more often. Cap not being able to see/smell/hear that invisible opponent might have had something to do with him being unable to react to that invisible opponent. It's not an indication of a lack of speed. And considering that Wolverine compliments Cap on holding his ground and nerve and not assuming he was being attacked sort of throws that interpretation that "Cap was terrified" out the window.

👆 too right-the 2nd scan clearly shows that Cap knew Logan wasn't attacking him, so wasn't terrified
As for this points match its close, but i would give it to Cap as he is more practiced, overall, skillwise-he has to be because he has no HF. In a lot of fights, Wolvie doesn't have to bother with finesse that much because his HF means he can take loads of punishment and instantly heal. Cap needs to be good enough to dodge virtually every attack, whilst successfully landing hits on his opponent.

^ 👆

Originally posted by Battlehammer
such as? seeing as how Logan trained vastly longer, study under numerous masters and is constantly listed as knowing all or virtually all fighting styles on the planet as well as alien ones I find this hard to believe. But you also think capt takes the majority vs wolverine, so I am far from surprized at your opinion on the matter.

That be reflex, not speed. Also got scan or issue number? Not to mention Logan dodge bullets after they were fired as well from a sitting possion in a chair..

When did doing something more make you better?

No difference in the context of a H2H fight. And I can't believe you've never seen this scan before. This isn't the first time Cap's done it, but this is one instance I'm referring to:

And no. In that scene you're referring to, the action cuts away from Logan right before the bullets were fired. There's a window of oppurtunity for him to preemptively jump out of the way. Try again. Or don't. The difference between the scenes is so obvious it's painfully obvious how attenuated your wish to equate the two are.

I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to StiltmanFTW.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Among others.

Educate me then.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap dodging a bullet AFTER it's fired from point-blank range and throwing his shield.

Heh, I knew you'd mention that. That was a single move. Impressive, but saying that's superior to Logan's feats is just wrong.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He does both more often. Cap not being able to see/smell/hear that invisible opponent might have had something to do with him being unable to react to that invisible opponent. It's not an indication of a lack of speed. And considering that Wolverine compliments Cap on holding his ground and nerve and not assuming he was being attacked sort of throws that interpretation that "Cap was terrified" out the window.

He was clearly terrified at first as you can see then realized he wasn't Wolverine's target.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And no. In that scene you're referring to, the action cuts away from Logan right before the bullets were fired. There's a window of oppurtunity for him to preemptively jump out of the way. Try again. Or don't. The difference between the scenes is so obvious it's painfully obvious how attenuated your wish to equate the two are.

Madripoor? Those thugs said that nothing human moves that fast. To them it appeared as if he has vanished.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ 👆 Unsupported assertion. Especially not supported on-panel.

No difference in the context of a H2H fight. And I can't believe you've never seen this scan before. This isn't the first time Cap's done it, but this is one instance I'm referring to:

And no. In that scene you're referring to, the action cuts away from Logan right before the bullets were fired. There's a window of oppurtunity for him to preemptively jump out of the way. Try again. Or don't. The difference between the scenes is so obvious it's painfully obvious how attenuated your wish to equate the two are.

I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to StiltmanFTW.

Quite a bit different when wolverine has legitment speed blizt feats that capt can't match.

nice feat, but far from out doing wolverine. No I am not refferring to the scene at the bar my friend, but thanks for the reminder of how utterly arrogant you can be.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5402/kwls2pg18lowresnc4.jpg

oh and there are many more, like the time he was a sleep and woke up from the sniper firer being shot at him, but was still fast enough to dodge the bullets before they hit him.

yea and I was speaking to you. If you dont want others to respond to you how about pming him?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

He was clearly terrified at first as you can see then realized he wasn't Wolverine's target.

Originally posted by Starscream M
it would be out of character for cap to be terrified.

Look at the scan and tell me what you see. No one is completely immune to fear and certainly not Cap who is just a human being with human emotions.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Look at the scan and tell me what you see. No one is completely immune to fear and certainly not Cap who is just a human being with human emotions.

sure cap would have fears

but he certainly would not be 'terrified' by wolverine lunging at him...shocked or surprised perhaps.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Educate me then.

Heh, I knew you'd mention that. That was a single move. Impressive, but saying that's superior to Logan's feats is just wrong.

He was clearly terrified at first as you can see then realized he wasn't Wolverine's target.

Madripoor? Those thugs said that nothing human moves that fast. To them it appeared as if he has vanished.

Sorry. But you making a patently bald-faced assertion without providing a single scan or reference or smidgeon of proof? That suffices for an argument? Not to me.

Try reading the next page where Wolverine compliments Cap for holding his nerve and Cap stating that he understood that Wolverine wasn't going to slash him. Looking at the art of Cap's wide-eyes in isolation and using tunnel-vision prevents you from appreciating context. But that doesn't prevent me from mpointing it out.

Cap's got oodles of those feats. Wolverine doesn't have a single feat where it's clear a bullet is fired before Logan's in position to dodge/block a bullet.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Quite a bit different when wolverine has legitment speed blizt feats that capt can't match.

nice feat, but far from out doing wolverine. No I am not refferring to the scene at the bar my friend, but thanks for the reminder of how utterly arrogant you can be.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5402/kwls2pg18lowresnc4.jpg

oh and there are many more, like the time he was a sleep and woke up from the sniper firer being shot at him, but was still fast enough to dodge the bullets before they hit him.

yea and I was speaking to you. If you dont want others to respond to you how about pming him?

Um no. That's exactly the one I was thinking about. Just because StiltmanFTW was referring to another one doesn't mean I was referring to that one. Try not to confuse posters. I know about both of those feats since jinzin laughably posted those to "match" Cap's. Keep your ad hominem to yourself, schmuck.

Post them.

How about you don't dictate who I talk to? Backseat-mod much?

Originally posted by Starscream M
it would be out of character for cap to be terrified.

👆

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ball's in your court. You already have proof in your lap. If there's anythign to suggest that Wolverine's got better, then feel free to share.

Does Cap know krav maga? Did he learn from Sh'iar combat priests? When has he ever displayed a Karnak-esque ability?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Sorry. But you making a patently bald-faced assertion without providing a single scan or reference or smidgeon of proof? That suffices for an argument? Not to me.

Onedumb. You've already done this debate several times and you still believe dodging a bullet after it's been fired is somehow superior to Wolverine feats? Really?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Try reading the next page where Wolverine compliments Cap for holding his nerve and Cap stating that he understood that Wolverine wasn't going to slash him. Looking at the art of Cap's wide-eyes in isolation and using tunnel-vision prevents you from appreciating context. But that doesn't prevent me from mpointing it out.

Dude, Cap even didn't know what was going on. He didn't even guess at why Logan didn't aim at him. Fact is, he got scared at first and that's it. Like it or not.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap's got oodles of those feats. Wolverine doesn't have a single feat where it's clear a bullet is fired before Logan's in position to dodge/block a bullet.

Wow. And Cap doesn't have a single feat where he's moved almost faster than a powerful telepath's mind can follow. See how that works...?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Does Cap know krav maga? Did he learn from Sh'iar combat priests? When has he ever displayed a Karnak-esque ability?

Onedumb. You've already done this debate several times and you still believe dodging a bullet after it's been fired is somehow superior to Wolverine feats? Really?

Dude, Cap even didn't know what was going on. He didn't even guess at why Logan didn't aim at him. Fact is, he got scared at first and that's it. Like it or not.

Wow. And Cap doesn't have a single feat where he's moved almost faster than a powerful telepath's mind can follow. See how that works...?

Yes. Because Wolverine's matched Cap's feats up to a certain point. But he doesn't have any feats to match Cap's where he's not in a position to dodge/block, and does so, AFTER a bullet is already fired. Are you somehow suggesting that such a feat isn't clearly superior than the generic telegraphing/aim-dodging that is common amongst street-levelers?

No. He didn't. It's evident the only reason you think that is because of Cap's wide-eyes. But you can be taken off-guard and still maintain your composure. And that's exactly what happened since Cap states he isn't fooled into thinking Logan would really attack him and Logan even compliments him on that exact fact. Like it or not.

It's not working at all the way you think it does, despite how clever you thought you may have been: (i) Psylocke (before her ninja training) was clearly referring to visually tracking the fight, since she talks about how "both men move in a blur" and the panel shows, conveniently enough, a blur effect; (ii) Psylocke may be a telepath, but that doesn't necessarily mean she was tracking their movements telepathically, so projecting some sort of "speed of thought" onto Wolverine's physical fight is reaching; (iii) almost faster is still almost faster but not faster; and (iv) if you give me half a day, I'm sure I can find a scan of Cap moving almost more quickly than someone w/ telepathy could follow.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The argument is about whether Cap knows more styles, not about whether Cap knows every single style that Logan knows. So your questions are inaposite. There's on-panel proof that Cap knows every single H2H fighting style on Earth. Is there on-panel proof that Wolverine knows all of them as well?

Yes. Because Wolverine's matched Cap's feats up to a certain point. But he doesn't have any feats to match Cap's where he's not in a position to dodge/block, and does so, AFTER a bullet is already fired. Are you somehow suggesting that such a feat isn't clearly superior than the generic telegraphing/aim-dodging that is common amongst street-levelers?

No. He didn't. It's evident the only reason you think that is because of Cap's wide-eyes. But you can be taken off-guard and still maintain your composure. And that's exactly what happened since Cap states he isn't fooled into thinking Logan would really attack him and Logan even compliments him on that exact fact. Like it or not.

It's not working at all the way you think it does, despite how clever you thought you may have been: (i) Psylocke (before her ninja training) was clearly referring to visually tracking the fight, since she talks about how "both men move in a blur" and the panel shows, conveniently enough, a blur effect; (ii) Psylocke may be a telepath, but that doesn't necessarily mean she was tracking their movements telepathically, so projecting some sort of "speed of thought" onto Wolverine's physical fight is reaching; (iii) almost faster is still almost faster but not faster; and (iv) if you give me half a day, I'm sure I can find a scan of Cap moving almost more quickly than someone w/ telepathy could follow.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The argument is about whether Cap knows more styles, not about whether Cap knows every single style that Logan knows. So your questions are inaposite. There's on-panel proof that Cap knows every single H2H fighting style on Earth. Is there on-panel proof that Wolverine knows all of them as well?

I find it hard to believe he had enough time to learn all these styles. That was his own statement anyway. Not the impartial narration. It could be argued that he just tried to intimidate Zemo.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes. Because Wolverine's matched Cap's feats up to a certain point. But he doesn't have any feats to match Cap's where he's not in a position to dodge/block, and does so, AFTER a bullet is already fired. Are you somehow suggesting that such a feat isn't clearly superior than the generic telegraphing/aim-dodging that is common amongst street-levelers?

Right, ignore Logan's feats and continue using your favorite scan. In every thread you do the same. A thought that you are taking that feat too literally at the art never crossed your mind? And it's not like Logan doesn't have similar feats:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5402/kwls2pg18lowresnc4.jpg (posted earlier by BH)

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpg

In both cases that wasn't just a single bullet.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. He didn't. It's evident the only reason you think that is because of Cap's wide-eyes. But you can be taken off-guard and still maintain your composure. And that's exactly what happened since Cap states he isn't fooled into thinking Logan would really attack him and Logan even compliments him on that exact fact. Like it or not.

Oh yes, he did. He moved back and covered face with his hand. Logan complimented him 'cause he didn't counter-attack him.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's not working at all the way you think it does, despite how clever you thought you may have been: [b](i) Psylocke (before her ninja training) was clearly referring to visually tracking the fight, since she talks about how "both men move in a blur" and the panel shows, conveniently enough, a blur effect; (ii) Psylocke may be a telepath, but that doesn't necessarily mean she was tracking their movements telepathically, so projecting some sort of speed of thought onto Wolverine's fight is reaching; (iii) almost faster is still almost faster but not faster; and (iv) if you give me half a day, I'm sure I can find a scan of Cap moving almost more quickly than someone w/ telepathy could follow. [/B]

Fair enough.

Has the impartial narrator ever stated that Steve moves faster than human eyes can follow?

Cap is a better fighter than shang chi & ironfist who ae better than logan. He was dominating Iron Fist so much that Iron Fist had to use the environment to end the fight by making Cap save him from falling debris, which he did.

Wolverine has commented in a fight with cap that cap is more skiled.

This is a real ridiculous showing of Captain America for speed.

He is standing besides Red Skull while the bullets are being fired. That means he would have to cross the room after the bullets were fired, and put up his shield. That's a legit showing of him being literally faster than bullets.

Good night.

Originally posted by khazra
Cap is a better fighter than shang chi & ironfist who ae better than logan. He was dominating Iron Fist so much that Iron Fist had to use the environment to end the fight by making Cap save him from falling debris, which he did.

Wolverine has commented in a fight with cap that cap is more skiled.

For starters Wolverine beat Shang-chi in 5 pannels. Second Iron Fist call Capt style basic and Capt never beat him.....that entire event you made up........

Wolverine has never commented that Capt was better fighter, let a lone in a fight. You made that up. Wolverine did however give Capt a blot clot forcing him to be flown to the hospital.......

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This is a real ridiculous showing of Captain America for speed.

He is standing besides Red Skull while the bullets are being fired. That means he would have to cross the room after the bullets were fired, and put up his shield. That's a legit showing of him being literally faster than bullets.

Good night.

Since point fighting is reliant on speed and more strategy, I think Cap is more inclined towards it honestly. Doesn't mean as much in a real fight, but I think this is more his alley. IMO.

The gun does look like it's aiming towards the right, but it seems that Cap was blocking the shots to save him. But either way, to insinuate Cap is faster than a bullet is utter PIS and silliness, plain and simple no discussion. Sorry if that seems harsh, but still.