Originally posted by Q99
I could see Gildartz on the same level, but Laxus not so much (remember that Laxus and Jura are supposed to be roughly the same level, and that Jura considers Makarov one of the strongest Wizard Saints).Giant Makarov wrecked the Grimoire Heart airship. He's pretty impressive.
What counter does Makarov have against any of Gildartz magic?
What counter does Makarov have against Laxus speed and destructiveness? He seemed to make very short work of the best of an entire guild: a guild built and trained specifically to be able to take out Fairy Tail's top.
Seems he is more than capable of taking out Makarov who is a waning warrior.
Originally posted by dadudemon
What counter does Makarov have against any of Gildartz magic?What counter does Makarov have against Laxus speed and destructiveness? He seemed to make very short work of the best of an entire guild: a guild built and trained specifically to be able to take out Fairy Tail's top.
Overwhelming physical might and toughness? Fairy law? In giant mode he can just flat-out tank Laxus's attacks and probably most of Gildartz's too. Makarov simply shrugged the airship's magic cannon attack.
Also he non-giant spells, like his defensive spell that protected him from Hades's powerful explosion magic, or the light-beam he shot from his finger that pierced Jose's shoulder.
Raven Tail were glass cannons trying to exploit weaknesses. Makarov is a big ol' tank with multiple forms of magic. Very different style of opponent, aside from simply having more raw power than RT.
Originally posted by Q99
Overwhelming physical might and toughness? Fairy law? In giant mode he can just flat-out tank Laxus's attacks and probably most of Gildartz's too. Makarov simply shrugged the airship's magic cannon attack.Also he non-giant spells, like his defensive spell that protected him from Hades's powerful explosion magic, or the light-beam he shot from his finger that pierced Jose's shoulder.
Raven Tail were glass cannons trying to exploit weaknesses. Makarov is a big ol' tank with multiple forms of magic. Very different style of opponent, aside from simply having more raw power than RT.
I agree. I can definitely see titan Makarov literally stomping the shit out of Laxus and Gildarts.
I give credit where its due...but Makarov(way past his prime) was literally kicking the shit out of a giant airship. Gildarts and Laxus, as impressive as they are, are still a notch below that IMO. Although Gildarts' magic is convenient as ****.
Lets not forget that Hades acknowledged Gildarts and Laxus' strength while all the time just dismissing everyone else. This tells me that either one of the two can actually pass off as a guild masters. Though Laxus whould be a Master of a lesser Guild, while Guildarts is awesome enought to be Master of FT, as recognized by Makarov.
It would be a good fight but Guildarts would probably win every single time. Power wise, I think that Laxus isnt that too far off from Guildartz. But the nature of Guilarts' magic (destruction magic) is too cheezy if you ask me and would just span his magic to guard against Laxus' lightning.
Guildarts was able to destroy a mini blackhole after all.
Originally posted by Q99
Overwhelming physical might
How does that counter...Crash, at all?
And Gildartz, without having to become a giant, has absurd physical strength.
Originally posted by Q99
and toughness?
Gildartz can tank Natsu's most powerful attack and only be pushed back every so slightly. Natsu's offense is definitely S-Class level. Gildartz is both unharmed and unphased by that, though. Toughness goes to Gildartz, in spades.
Originally posted by Q99
Fairy law?
Fairy Law is countered and rendered useless by Crash. Additionally, Fairy Law does nothing to a non-enemy. Gildartz is not an enemy.
Originally posted by Q99
In giant mode he can just flat-out tank Laxus's attacks
Where is this evidence?
Originally posted by Q99
and probably most of Gildartz's too.
That's a definitive "no".
Originally posted by Q99
Makarov simply shrugged the airship's magic cannon attack.
He....did?
Originally posted by Q99
Also he non-giant spells, like his defensive spell that protected him from Hades's powerful explosion magic, or the light-beam he shot from his finger that pierced Jose's shoulder.
Good stuff against most magical users except any S-Class mage worth anything. Gildartz is a whole head and shoulders above most S-Class mages.
Originally posted by Q99
Raven Tail were glass cannons trying to exploit weaknesses. Makarov is a big ol' tank with multiple forms of magic. Very different style of opponent, aside from simply having more raw power than RT.
Still, I ask, how is any of his magic going to do anything at all to Gildartz? There is nothing shown in Makarov's arsenal that can do anything to Gildartz. Gildartz an null almost any type of magic. He can also turn Makarov's giant size into tiny pieces which pretty much nulls the point of being a giant.
Also, this:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v15/c119/15.html
At this point, Laxus (Laxus has a flash back where he promises to surpass Makarov before it comes to this convo with Mistogun) does not even consider Makarov in the top 3. Gildartz is cast aside because Laxus correctly assumes Gildartz is as good as AWOL or dead. Mistogun and Laxus, at this point, are the strongest members of the guild.
And this confirms that he is the strongest mage of FT:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v20/c166/10.html
And this is his profile:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v20/c167//
Note, it is says "this is currently Fairy Tails strongest mage..."
I don't think it gets any less definitive than that.
How does that counter...Crash, at all?
By being tough enough that most of them simply won't cause much damage.
Even massively destructive magic really doesn't do much to him in giant form.
And Gildartz, without having to become a giant, has absurd physical strength.
Yes, but still well below Titan-Makarov's strength, it's that huge.
He....did?
Yes, the Grimoire Heart fired a magic cannon and he simply blocked it with him arm. Specifically it was called a Jupiter Cannon, so the same type of thing as Phantom Guild's cannon.
That's more firepower than any of Laxus's non-FL attacks by a good margin. More than I think any Gildartz has shown either.
Fairy Law is countered and rendered useless by Crash. Additionally, Fairy Law does nothing to a non-enemy.
Dunno if Crash could counter FL. Though, yea, non-enemy.
Good stuff against most magical users except any S-Class mage worth anything. Gildartz is a whole head and shoulders above most S-Class mages.
They were useful against Jose, a wizard saint that Jura felt was his definitive superior.
The protective spell blocked Hades' blast, which damaged much of the island when it went off.
Still, I ask, how is any of his magic going to do anything at all to Gildartz? There is nothing shown in Makarov's arsenal that can do anything to Gildartz. Gildartz an null almost any type of magic.
It 'nulls' other magics not by bringing them to zero (in the sense that Raven Tail's magic canceler does), but by simply overpowering them.
Makarov's got at least as much raw omph as him, so overpower is not such an easy thing. I'd think if Gildartz wins it'll be through endurance, Makarov doesn't seem to be able to stay in giant form too long, but while he's in it he seems the most powerful.
He can also turn Makarov's giant size into tiny pieces which pretty much nulls the point of being a giant.
Dunno if he can do that against a foe so huge, and with such high resistance to enemy magics. Even if he could, though, Makarov also has his defensive spells.
Originally posted by Q99
By being tough enough that most of them simply won't cause much damage.
"Them" what?
Originally posted by Q99
Even massively destructive magic really doesn't do much to him in giant form.
Huh? Where is your evidence for this?
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but still well below Titan-Makarov's strength, it's that huge.
Wah? I never saw a shock wave from one of his punches cause destruction like a Dragonball fight:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v25/c234/6.html
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, the Grimoire Heart fired a magic cannon and he simply blocked it with him arm. Specifically it was called a Jupiter Cannon, so the same type of thing as Phantom Guild's cannon.
And he took damage from that shot.
Originally posted by Q99
That's more firepower than any of Laxus's non-FL attacks by a good margin. More than I think any Gildartz has shown either.
What you don't seem to be understanding is it is all useless.
Everything Makarov has is nulled by Gildartz...even if Makarov produces an infinite amount of force:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v25/c238/11.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v25/c238/16.html
Originally posted by Q99
Dunno if Crash could counter FL. Though, yea, non-enemy.
Likewise, dunno if FL would be immune to Crash.
Originally posted by Q99
They were useful against Jose, a wizard saint that Jura felt was his definitive superior.The protective spell blocked Hades' blast, which damaged much of the island when it went off.
Not really, they were not useful. What was useful was FL.
Originally posted by Q99
It 'nulls' other magics not by bringing them to zero (in the sense that Raven Tail's magic canceler does), but by simply overpowering them.Makarov's got at least as much raw omph as him, so overpower is not such an easy thing. I'd think if Gildartz wins it'll be through endurance, Makarov doesn't seem to be able to stay in giant form too long, but while he's in it he seems the most powerful.
I don't mean to be blunt but you're just plain wrong:
Everything Makarov has is nulled by Gildartz...even if Makarov produces an infinite amount of force:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v25/c238/11.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v25/c238/16.html
Originally posted by Q99
Dunno if he can do that against a foe so huge, and with such high resistance to enemy magics. Even if he could, though, Makarov also has his defensive spells.
Well, since we have definitive proof that Gildartz is the most poweful wizard in the mage, we don't have to speculate: he can overcome Makarov.
Weeelll... Guildartz is the strongest mage in FT, but it doesn't prove that the Guildmaster, Makarov, is part of that count 😛 but still, Guildartz destruction magic, crash, is just broken.
Even if Makarov is stronger, magic power wise, Guildartz's crash magic would shit all over anyhting Makarov can dish out.
I'm inclined to believe that Guildartz was purposely removed from the current story arc coz, you know, if he was in any of the FT teams, that team would win easy. And he'd just go ballistic all over Sabertooth and just outright kill them all.
Not really, they were not useful. What was useful was FL.
It blasted a hole in his shoulder.
What won it was Fairy Law, but the light spell inflicted damage.
I don't mean to be blunt but you're just plain wrong:Everything Makarov has is nulled by Gildartz...even if Makarov produces an infinite amount of force:
Being able to overcome Bluenote's magic (and that's what he said he did, shatter the magic that was creating the black hole. The gravity was said to be infinite*, not the magic) is not the same as being able to overcome Makarov's.
*Not strictly how blackholes work anyway
Originally posted by Q99
It blasted a hole in his shoulder.
"It"?
Well, I'll say again that those techs were not very useful because it took FL to win while being pressed quite severely for a victory.
Originally posted by Q99
What won it was Fairy Law, but the light spell inflicted damage.
Ahhh. I should have read your post a bit more. Yes, you pretty much agree with me. I just don't agree with your strong label of "useful". None appeared to be even marginally useful and Makarov took a pounding to pull out a win.
Question: why didn't he just bust out FL from the beginning?
Originally posted by Q99
Being able to overcome Bluenote's magic (and that's what he said he did, shatter the magic that was creating the black hole. The gravity was said to be infinite*, not the magic) is not the same as being able to overcome Makarov's.
Hey, a win is a win (I'm referring to our argument). I just wanted to show you that even if the magic being destroyed produces infinite force, he still shatters it. 🙂
Originally posted by Q99
*Not strictly how blackholes work anyway
And a magical force that can produce infinitely forceful black holes in the palm of your hand doesn't work that way, either.
Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
Weeelll... Guildartz is the strongest mage in FT, but it doesn't prove that the Guildmaster, Makarov, is part of that count 😛
So Makarov is not part of Fairy Tail? Who kicked him out? 🙁
Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
Even if Makarov is stronger, magic power wise, Guildartz's crash magic would shit all over anyhting Makarov can dish out.
Yeah, this is my point.
Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
I'm inclined to believe that Guildartz was purposely removed from the current story arc coz, you know, if he was in any of the FT teams, that team would win easy. And he'd just go ballistic all over Sabertooth and just outright kill them all.
In addition, the reason it is cited that Gildartz lost to the "black dragon" was due to being speed blitzed...
Originally posted by Q99
He took a jupiter cannon shot and just got a little bloody spot on his arm. That's one of the highest defense feats in the manga.
I agree. But I would say a much higher durability feat is colliding fists with such force that it dissolves/vaporizes the rocks around it DB style. A physical collision that is strong enough to produce such a shock wave implies a stupid-high level of durability. That's different that an energy attack which is not concentrated in such a small area.
Originally posted by dadudemon
In addition, the reason it is cited that Gildartz lost to the "black dragon" was due to being speed blitzed...I agree. But I would say a much higher durability feat is colliding fists with such force that it dissolves/vaporizes the rocks around it DB style. A physical collision that is strong enough to produce such a shock wave implies a stupid-high level of durability. That's different that an energy attack which is not concentrated in such a small area.
Nah, my take on it was that the black dragon Arcnolagia (or something like that) was just too uber for him. But still escaping with just a few lost limbs and an organ or two and still alive is one hell of an achievement as compared to the dragon taking on all of FT's top mages and was just toying with them.
As for his durability, lets not forget that Guildartz lived through a beating from Bluenote all the while having no magic power.
I have little doubt in my mind that Guildartz is probably the strongest FT mage incluive of masters followed by Markarov/Laxus.
Yeah, I lump Makarov and Laxus together coz you know, Laxus just beat up his dad who was most likely trained by Makarov. Not to mention he went toe to toe with Hades and only lost coz of his "FT mages should take care of this" stance and the heart thingy.
Without the heart, Hades and Laxus would probably matchup evenly.