Fairy Tail

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
Nah, my take on it was that the black dragon Arcnolagia (or something like that) was just too uber for him. But still escaping with just a few lost limbs and an organ or two and still alive is one hell of an achievement as compared to the dragon taking on all of FT's top mages and was just toying with them.

As for his durability, lets not forget that Guildartz lived through a beating from Bluenote all the while having no magic power.

I have little doubt in my mind that Guildartz is probably the strongest FT mage incluive of masters followed by Markarov/Laxus.

Yeah, I lump Makarov and Laxus together coz you know, Laxus just beat up his dad who was most likely trained by Makarov. Not to mention he went toe to toe with Hades and only lost coz of his "FT mages should take care of this" stance and the heart thingy.

Without the heart, Hades and Laxus would probably matchup evenly.

Guildartz was blitz by the dragon

Guildartz was slowly being drain and Bluenote was just torturing him

Makarov > Laxus (post training) > dad

Laxus was hit by a spell, he was gonna lose. That's another reason why he give Natsu the torch.

I understand Laxus is powerful and is arguably above Erza/Mira, but I cannot agree with the majority of your opinion.

Originally posted by dadudemon
"It"?

Well, I'll say again that those techs were not very useful because it took FL to win while being pressed quite severely for a victory.

The light beam he used to shoot Jose.

And while he used Fairy Law, he wasn't pressed that hard to win. He wasn't very hurt or tired.

Makarov didn't take much damage, and the biggest source of damage he did take... was when Jose used link-magic to give him the same shoulder wound.

Question: why didn't he just bust out FL from the beginning?

Probably did a few to get Jose's level, but they didn't fight for very long at all.

Hey, a win is a win (I'm referring to our argument). I just wanted to show you that even if the magic being destroyed produces infinite force, he still shatters it. 🙂

If it was actually infinite rather than figuratively, they'd all be dead 🙂

Originally posted by vansonbee
Really? What I recall from the dialogue is;

Guildartz was blitz by the dragon

Guildartz was slowly being drain and Bluenote was just torturing him

Makarov > Laxus (post training) > dad

Laxus was hit by a spell, he was gonna lose. That's another reason why he give Natsu the torch.

I understand Laxus is powerful and is arguably above Erza/Mira, but I cannot agree with the majority of your opinion.

You forget, Makarov got hit by a spell as well and thats all he wrote, while Laxus managed to splat hades after the spell hit.

Not to mention every FT member's reaction as to laxus suddenly just giving his power to Natus, they were all like, wtf, why'd you give natus your power? same goes for Natsu, he was like, wy give me your power?

Then there was Grey's comment when Laxus took on the uber attack from Hades without magic power and managed to live through it.

Even Gajeel recognized Laxus' power, saying that if he was present during the Phantom Lord's attack on Fairy Tail, things would have gone differently. This would mean that Gajeel believed that Laxus could have kicked their asses and stoped PL's master.

Even Mystogan recognizes that aside from Guildartz, one of them is the strongest FT mage, and that obviously includes Makarov.

Everything that has transpired involving Laxus and his level of power supports my view that he is above Makarov.

You forget, Makarov got hit by a spell as well and thats all he wrote, while Laxus managed to splat hades after the spell hit.

Different spells- the one Makarov was hit with caused destruction across much of the island. And he'd taken hits before that.

Even Mystogan recognizes that aside from Guildartz, one of them is the strongest FT mage, and that obviously includes Makarov.

I think most of them just leave him off because he's the master (remember that Gajeel was called Phantom Lord's strongest mage instead of Jose despite Jose being far more powerful. It seems that when talking about mages in a guild, Masters are considered separately), he's old, and not as active.

Remember that it was Makarov who was Makarov's big goal in that arc, he was the one Laxus wanted to fight more than anyone else.

Remember also that Jura said that Makarov was much stronger than he was, and Jura is a badass as well.

Originally posted by Q99
The light beam he used to shoot Jose.

That's a sentence fragment so I am taking the liberty of finishing it for you:

...did nothing to stop Jose and Jose kept on trucking. Conclusion: did not do much for Makarov.

Originally posted by Q99
And while he used Fairy Law, he wasn't pressed that hard to win. He wasn't very hurt or tired.

He seemed beat up, to me.

Originally posted by Q99
Makarov didn't take much damage, and the biggest source of damage he did take... was when Jose used link-magic to give him the same shoulder wound.

lol

Which forced Makarov to have to use FL, anyway. haha

So, like I said...

Originally posted by Q99
Probably did a few to get Jose's level, but they didn't fight for very long at all.

My point was implied: stupid lame CIS. He should have just busted it out from the beginning.

Originally posted by Q99
If it was actually infinite rather than figuratively, they'd all be dead 🙂

Not true. The area of affect could be in a specific volume of space...as it clearly was. It did not affect the user, at all. 🙂

In other words, I win yet again. mwhahahahaahahaa

Originally posted by Q99
I think most of them just leave him off because he's the master (remember that Gajeel was called Phantom Lord's strongest mage instead of Jose despite Jose being far more powerful. It seems that when talking about mages in a guild, Masters are considered separately), he's old, and not as active.

Remember that it was Makarov who was Makarov's big goal in that arc, he was the one Laxus wanted to fight more than anyone else.

If this were true (that masters are excluded from those statements) then why show the flash back where Laxus vowed to be stronger than Makarov...then it flashes forward and Laxus makes a declaration that Mystogun and Laxus are the strongest?

Something is broken in both your logic and the writer's logic.

Additionally, who is to say that Gajeel was NOT stronger than Jose? I think an argument can be made that Gajeel's fighting ability and absurd durability make him the strongest.

Originally posted by Q99
Remember also that Jura said that Makarov was much stronger than he was, and Jura is a badass as well.

Where?

I agree with Q99. LoL an argument could be made that Gajeel was stronger than Jose? Really?

That's a sentence fragment so I am taking the liberty of finishing it for you:

...did nothing to stop Jose and Jose kept on trucking. Conclusion: did not do much for Makarov.

It shot strait through his shoulder and looked like it really hurt. Yea, it didn't drop him, but it still dealt visible damage. Not every hit has to finish someone to matter.

He seemed beat up, to me.

Dunno why. There was only one hit that he made- when he used magic to mirror the shoulder hit Makarov had inflicted on him, which you just said was insignificant.

Also in the fight, Makarov dismissed the energy attack Jose was holding Erza with, and blew away his Darkness magic with a burst of magic so big that Natsu outside the building said only the old guy has this kind of power.

Which forced Makarov to have to use FL, anyway. haha

May I point out he didn't even go into giant mode in the fight?

It's hard to claim he was out of options when he didn't even go physical with his primary combat magic, and he certainly didn't act pushed to the edge when he used Law, calling for Jose to surrender and knee, and giving him a countdown.

Then casually backhanding an S-class mage who tried to ambush him.

If this were true (that masters are excluded from those statements) then why show the flash back where Laxus vowed to be stronger than Makarov...then it flashes forward and Laxus makes a declaration that Mystogun and Laxus are the strongest?

Something is broken in both your logic and the writer's logic.

Or rather, the characters simply don't consistently talk about the matter, and it's true in real life that happens too.

When talking about a group, masters tend to be left out, but people can still specifically compare themselves to a master.

Additionally, who is to say that Gajeel was NOT stronger than Jose? I think an argument can be made that Gajeel's fighting ability and absurd durability make him the strongest.

Jose was holding off Erza fairly easily (granted, she wasn't at full, but she did also just one-shot a foe that was holding off Natsu) while his shades were fighting most of the rest of the FT guild at once, and she's stronger than Natsu, who beat Gajeel.

Where?

Way back when he was introduced.

He doesn't even think he can compare, and this is the same badass who beat Brain while wounded.

To put it like Elfman "Makarov is the men's man."

Jura's statement doesnt tell us anthing except that he is the least of the 10 saint mages. Guildartz is >>>>>>> Jura and he isn't part of the 10.

The only thing we can get from that info is that most of the new members of the 10 saint mages are those who dont oppose the council or are those who suck up to the council.

Laxus of all people would know what a total badass Makarov is and yet during the Festival, he openly challenged Makarov's strength. If you knew how strong someone is, would you go doing stupid things to piss that guy off? hellz no, but Laxus just went out and pissed off Makarov. This tells us that Laxus knows that he can match up to Makarov.

Its all there, Makarov is not the strongest in FT, Guldartz is. As for Laxus, he is at least on par with Makarov. Just because you're the master doesn't mean your the most powerful or strongest forever. Time will come when the master's power is equaled or surpassed by its followers, and Guildartz and Laxus just did that.

Guildartz is >>>>>>> Jura and he isn't part of the 10.

Well, post-timeskip, during the magic-power competition... Makarov said his output would be a match for Gildartz's.

As for Laxus, he is at least on par with Makarov. Just because you're the master doesn't mean your the most powerful or strongest forever.

No, but... Makarov's got better defense by a lot. His physical offense is tremendous, and his other offensive spells are dangerous too. He's more versatile.

I think simple feat-wise, Makarov is higher of the two.

Laxus would not have seem Makarov fight often. He's been away, and Makarov only very rarely engages in personal combat. The only two times he's personally engaged is against Jose and Hades.

Now, he's obviously increasing in power and someday will reach that level, but I don't think he's there yet.

Well I'll still put Gildartz over Makarov but do note that Makarov is still stronger than Laxus.

Achnologia had the decency to use a sample of it's full power to blitz/one-shot Gildartz during their first encounter while Makarov was toyed with along with the rest of FT. Heck Gildartz even notes that Achnologia wasn't using the power it one-shot Gildartz with when up against al of FT. Maybe it's not entirely correct but Gildartz surviving Achnologia is slightly more impressive than the airship feat: well I'll bump it down to being equally as impressive.

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
Jura's statement doesnt tell us anthing except that he is the least of the 10 saint mages. Guildartz is >>>>>>> Jura and he isn't part of the 10.

The only thing we can get from that info is that most of the new members of the 10 saint mages are those who dont oppose the council or are those who suck up to the council.

Laxus of all people would know what a total badass Makarov is and yet during the Festival, he openly challenged Makarov's strength. If you knew how strong someone is, would you go doing stupid things to piss that guy off? hellz no, but Laxus just went out and pissed off Makarov. This tells us that Laxus knows that he can match up to Makarov.

Its all there, Makarov is not the strongest in FT, Guldartz is. As for Laxus, he is at least on par with Makarov. Just because you're the master doesn't mean your the most powerful or strongest forever. Time will come when the master's power is equaled or surpassed by its followers, and Guildartz and Laxus just did that.

That tells me that Laxus wasn't thinking straight and had his ego blown out of proportion, so much that he forgot what was really important and what his grandfather taught him. Laxus thought he could matchup to Makarov. It doesn't mean he actually can. Laxus also thought he could match up to Hades and we know how that fight went. No one said Makarov was the strongest simply because he was the master.

Laxus is one tough mother ****er. I have no doubt he will reach and/or surpass Makarov. But right now he is simply too young. Makarov has a good, what? 60 years ahead of him.

yeah, we all know that Hades got beaten up good. Only reason he was standing was because of his infinite magic supply. Without it, Hades would have obviously lost to Laxus.

As for Makarov stating Jura after the time skip would match Guildartz, thats a bunch of none sense. If they were to fight, it would be one of the worst match up ever. Guildartz' crash magic would shit all over anything Jura could throw at him.

As for Makarov having 50 or so years more experience over Laxus, but thats the thing. He's getting Old. He may know more shit but that doesn't translate to strength and power. Why do you think he's looking to make Guildartz the Master of FT? Coz his power is diminishing and he knows it.

He may know more shit but that doesn't translate to strength and power.

He does, however, had a lot of strength and power.

Why do you think he's looking to make Guildartz the Master of FT?

He's almost died once during the series due to age-related health issues. Whatever his power, dying is a worry 🙂

Originally posted by Zack Fair
I agree with Q99. LoL an argument could be made that Gajeel was stronger than Jose? Really?

Yup.

Originally posted by Q99
It shot strait through his shoulder and looked like it really hurt. Yea, it didn't drop him, but it still dealt visible damage. Not every hit has to finish someone to matter.

But he seemed to actually ENJOY that shot through the shoulder on the very next page. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v08/c065/13.html

It may have (most likely) been part of his plan. Possibly outlast the old man with stamina?

Originally posted by Q99
Dunno why. There was only one hit that he made- when he used magic to mirror the shoulder hit Makarov had inflicted on him, which you just said was insignificant.

I definitely concede that this is a possibility. However, the dialogue in this very same chapter points to my point being correct without much room for alternate interpretation.

Originally posted by Q99
But...he was before entering the fight. He looked worn and battle-damaged already. Go back and look when he goes to put on his clothes with summon.

That's not the case with Laxus and his statements to Mystogun as the manga shows a flashback where a younger Laxus vows to surpass Makarov and then a few pages later, he tells Mystogun that he and Mystogun are the strongest in the guild.

Within the context of that particular statement by Laxus: Laxus clearly feels that he, Gildartz, and Mystogun are the strongest in the guild: not Makarov.

Originally posted by Q99
Also in the fight, Makarov dismissed the energy attack Jose was holding Erza with, and blew away his Darkness magic with a burst of magic so big that Natsu outside the building said only the old guy has this kind of power.

Because Natsu was intimately familiar with every mage on the planet, it wasn't hyperbole to add to the excitement of the guild leader bringing the hammer, and Natsu could compare that kind of power to contemporary Laxus (who was virtually AWOL) and Gildartz (who was also virtually AWOL)...right?

Originally posted by Q99
May I point out he didn't even go into giant mode in the fight?

He did go into giant mode into the fight:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v08/c065/17.html

May I also point out that Jose seemed to be unbeaten/unparalleled in all of his fights until the mighty Makarov?

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v08/c064/8.html

Originally posted by Q99
It's hard to claim he was out of options when he didn't even go physical with his primary combat magic, and he certainly didn't act pushed to the edge when he used Law, calling for Jose to surrender and knee, and giving him a countdown.

Using one of the greatest of 3 magics at his disposal is hardly "holding back". Most likely, this was the only way he could have defeated Jose due to Jose's unique abilities. Notice that Jose's casual attacks take a shitton of concentration and power from Makarov:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v08/c065/14.html

Originally posted by Q99
Then casually backhanding an S-class mage who tried to ambush him.

1. Oh, you mean backhanding this guy, right?http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v09/c066/6.html

Yeah, that guy is pretty much dead. This guy you said Makarov casually backhanded was just struck by FL which is one of the most powerful attacks possible in this universe. The list of mages that could null this or stop Makarov before he unleashes this is 3 or 4 mages. 😐 Short list. Yes, Laxus and Gildartz are part of that 3 or 4 list. 🙂

2. The gulf between Erza (then) and Gildartz and Laxus is huge. Comparing Jose to Gildartz and Laxus is not legit. Jose would have gone down quite quickly against either of them, then. and either of them now. Oh, and, neither Laxus nor Gildartz would have to use Fairy Law to win. 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
Jose was holding off Erza fairly easily (granted, she wasn't at full, but she did also just one-shot a foe that was holding off Natsu) while his shades were fighting most of the rest of the FT guild at once, and she's stronger than Natsu, who beat Gajeel.

Granted she also just tanked that super-cannon. So I don't put much thought into Erza having trouble against Jose.

Originally posted by Q99
Way back when he was introduced.

He doesn't even think he can compare, and this is the same badass who beat Brain while wounded.

So you don't think he was being modest, right? Because Jura seems to be significantly stronger and more durable than Makarov (stronger in the sense of the manga, not physical strength).

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
Jura's statement doesnt tell us anthing except that he is the least of the 10 saint mages. Guildartz is >>>>>>> Jura and he isn't part of the 10.

I agree with this assessment.

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
Laxus of all people would know what a total badass Makarov is and yet during the Festival, he openly challenged Makarov's strength. If you knew how strong someone is, would you go doing stupid things to piss that guy off? hellz no, but Laxus just went out and pissed off Makarov. This tells us that Laxus knows that he can match up to Makarov.

Its all there, Makarov is not the strongest in FT, Guldartz is. As for Laxus, he is at least on par with Makarov. Just because you're the master doesn't mean your the most powerful or strongest forever. Time will come when the master's power is equaled or surpassed by its followers, and Guildartz and Laxus just did that.

I agree with all of this, as well.

You don't swear that you will surpass someone, go AWOL to train, and then come back and openly challenge the person you swore to surpass without a shred of an idea of how you new power compares to that person you have sworn to surpass. I think Laxus' speed and potency of his attacks were enough to beat Makarov. He's even stronger, now (Laxus). He could take out an entire group of anti-S-Class-Fairy Tail mages with ease. That puts him on par with multiple S-Class mages, simultaneously, easily.

Erza has gotten much stronger as well. She defeated all of those monsters which included an s-class monster that was capable of giving a wizard saint lots of trouble.

The Erza of now is far superior to the Erza that fought Jose. Makarov? He's the same. There is a whole new level of Fairy Tail mages compared to the old. This is part of why I say Laxus and Gildartz are definitely superior to Makarov. Someone could make a case that Erza has surpassed Makarov but I think she's still a tad below. She's definitely Wizard Saint level, however.

But he seemed to actually ENJOY that shot through the shoulder on the very next page. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fair...08/c065/13.html

It may have (most likely) been part of his plan. Possibly outlast the old man with stamina?

Yea. It caused damage, but he was happy because he planned to give it to Makarov too, and figure he had the edge there due to youth or what have you.

So you don't think he was being modest, right? Because Jura seems to be significantly stronger and more durable than Makarov (stronger in the sense of the manga, not physical strength).

Huh? Makarov's done better against stronger foes. Jose was stronger than any of the Oracion Seis save perhaps Zero- he one-shotted Elfman and Gray at the same time, and then was beating a tired Erza solidly after that, all while maintaining his shades in combat with Cana and most of the other FT guild forces.

And as Angel said after the page I linked, she'd be worried if Jura was as powerful as Makarov.

And the magic-cannon Makarov blocked was supposed to be the same type that took down Adamantine-Armor Erza.

Makarov's regularly been shown to be a beast. He is flat-out the most powerful Wizard Saint we've seen.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea. It caused damage, but he was happy because he planned to give it to Makarov too, and figure he had the edge there due to youth or what have you.

Bam. So it looks like we agree on something.

Originally posted by Q99
Huh? Makarov's done better against stronger foes. Jose was stronger than any of the Oracion Seis save perhaps Zero- he one-shotted Elfman and Gray at the same time, and then was beating a tired Erza solidly after that, all while maintaining his shades in combat with Cana and most of the other FT guild forces.

I don't follow this diatribe too well. I take each fight, for Makarov, as an island fight. He's not very consistant. Personally, I think he should have beaten Hades. FL was more than enough. But the writer likes his PIS.

Originally posted by Q99
And as Angel said after the page I linked, she'd be worried if Jura was as powerful as Makarov.

lol

It was still modesty. I think Jura can beat down Makarov, now. Even back then, he would have given Makarov more trouble than Jose. Also, power alone does not determine who wins a fight...some techs, while seemingly weak, seem to be much more advantageous over others.

Originally posted by Q99
And the magic-cannon Makarov blocked was supposed to be the same type that took down Adamantine-Armor Erza.

Links. I don't follow what you're saying here.

Originally posted by Q99
Makarov's regularly been shown to be a beast. He is flat-out the most powerful Wizard Saint we've seen.

Not true. I think Jura has surpassed Makarov since those days.

I don't follow this diatribe too well. I take each fight, for Makarov, as an island fight. He's not very consistant.

I'd say he's very consistent. He only fights other guild masters (and one dragon), and always throws around big spells during them.

Every foe he faces is more powerful than anyone Jura's faced.

Personally, I think he should have beaten Hades. FL was more than enough. But the writer likes his PIS.

Hades had Law too, though.

Also I'm not sure how you can think he should beat Hades and that pre-skip Jura would even give him trouble at the same time, they seem mutually exclusive conclusions.

It was still modesty. I think Jura can beat down Makarov, now. Even back then, he would have given Makarov more trouble than Jose. Also, power alone does not determine who wins a fight...some techs, while seemingly weak, seem to be much more advantageous over others.

Honestly I have no idea why you think that. Jura was a bit more powerful than an Oracion Seis, but not by a ton, and we could see Gray/Natsu/etc. could stand up to an Oracion Seis pretty well.

Jose was way above Gray/Natsu/etc. from what we saw, and Makarov was equal to him *without* using Titan mode.

And while some techs are more advantageous against others, that doesn't favor Makarov or Jura in this comparison.

Links. I don't follow what you're saying here.

Phantom Lord's magic cannon was a Jupiter Cannon.

Grimoire Heart's magic cannon was a Jupiter Cannon.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd say he's very consistent.

*Inconstant.

Originally posted by Q99
He only fights other guild masters (and one dragon), and always throws around big spells during them.

True.

Originally posted by Q99
Every foe he faces is more powerful than anyone Jura's faced.

Not true.

Originally posted by Q99
Hades had Law too, though.

Why do you think that's relevant to what I said? It is not as though Fairy Law nullifies itself when cast on itself.

Originally posted by Q99
Also I'm not sure how you can think he should beat Hades and that pre-skip Jura would even give him trouble at the same time, they seem mutually exclusive conclusions.

Giving someone trouble is not the same thing as beating them: that's where you problem sits in your understanding.

Originally posted by Q99
Honestly I have no idea why you think that. Jura was a bit more powerful than an Oracion Seis, but not by a ton, and we could see Gray/Natsu/etc. could stand up to an Oracion Seis pretty well.

You're downplaying Jura if you think Natsu and Gray are of similar level as the same version of Jura that fought the OS. That comparson is not even legit as there are even differing levels of OS within their own ranks. But, this is usually how our discussions go.

Originally posted by Q99
Jose was way above Gray/Natsu/etc. from what we saw, and Makarov was equal to him *without* using Titan mode.

Makarov was never equal to Jose: he was always greater. A weakened form of Erza was almost a match for Jose. Jura is definitely stronger/more powerful than Erza (back then....maybe not now).

Originally posted by Q99
And while some techs are more advantageous against others, that doesn't favor Makarov or Jura in this comparison.

I disagree. Jura can put out just as much physical power as Makarov with his rock manip. He can create just as much destruction, as well. He has something greater than Makarov does, though: more durability. He also has more stamina.

Let's not forget that Natsu appears to have more durability (and definitely more stamina) than Makarov.

Originally posted by Q99
Phantom Lord's magic cannon was a Jupiter Cannon.

Grimoire Heart's magic cannon was a Jupiter Cannon.

I see what you're saying now.

Back on topic:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v23/c215/7.html

That's hardly a flesh wound.

Also, the Jupiter cannon seems to be on par with a city block or two buster: not all that powerful if you consider just the fists colliding between Gildartz and Bluenote.

So what is the actual argument, now?

I don't see one.

Here is the order of strength of the top three at Fairy Tail:

Gildartz, Laxus, and Makarov.