Originally posted by leonidasWord.
snow-bor, yes. 2-shotting bill from behind. great feat! didn't really see him do anything to strange . . .and impatient? lol
you never said how long it would take, but whatever. we've been at it a few days, i figure that's enough time. it's not, that's fine. you say you got scans i wait for them.
Originally posted by leonidasI already have proof that speed of thought >>> speed of light execution and equal to speed of light execution. Sorry you keep ignoring on-panel quantifications. *shrugs* Also, Loki doesn't really need to see a superspeedzorz opponent to use an AoE magic blast anyway.
BWHAHAHAH! you don't do the whole turn-things-around-on-your-opponent very well, do you?you see, the difference here is rather rudimentary yet seemingly escapes you over and again--i don't need to prove kal uses superspeed in battles because he does--A LOT. and since it's in his powerset, i can do so.
the problem with YOUR stance (comical as the attempt was) is that, one more time . . .
you . . .
have . . .
no . . .
proof . . .
loki . . .
could . . .
HIT . . .
superman . . .
moving . . .
at . . .
super . . .
SPEED!!!
Guess . . .
since . . .
Superman . . .
can't . . .
hit . . .
Loki . . .
and . . .
Loki . . .
still . . .
has . . .
viable . . .
options . . .
then . . .
Superman . . .
still . . .
LOSES!!!
Originally posted by leonidasSorry, but you still haven't presented a single viable option for Superman to hit Loki. At all.
so, while your attempts to turn things around are appreciated and made me laugh, they are of course as futile as the rest of your arguments have been.i'm afraid the debate isn't very complex. you seem to like to imagine yourself as pretty bright though, so maybe the simplicity of this thing is just beneath you? this really isn't very high brow, i'm sorry.
superman is like, WWAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY faster than loki!!
i'm afraid the debate is slightly more complex than you gave it credit for. you seem to like to imagine yourself as pretty bright though, so i don't know why you can't accept scans as if they're just over your head? this really isn't that shallow, i'm sorry 🙁
superman is like, SSTIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL not hitting loki! 😱
Originally posted by leonidasAoE blast. Loki can hit him. But good to know that even if you ignore a viable option which you yourself mentioned not long ago, you admit that irregardless, this is a stalemate draw. frankly, it is quite revealing how shallow your arguments are when i can waive intangibility in your face and utterly blunt your entire initial position.
and if loki can't hit him, he can't win. you wanna say he goes intangible and kal can't hit him and it's a draw, i couldn't care less. frankly, it is more plausible than most of what you've tried to pass off.kal is fast. loki is too slow and has never been shown to hit a speedster. try and obscure that basic defiiciency of your argument all you'd like though.
loki is intangible. superman is unable to hit him and has never been shown to hit a magically intangible/invisible/undetectable magician. try and obscure that basic deficiency of your argument all you'd like though.
Originally posted by leonidasActually it was facetious when you did it. It was ironic when I did it. 🙂
apparently not, and it was a lot funnier when i did it.newsflash--that's what it IS over.
lol that's funny, cuz i find it works beautifully.
oh noez, i'm busted and my argument falls to pieces. fortunately ANY level of superspeed works just fine.
So you admit projecting your own use of abc logic onto me. Beautiful job. Impressive concession. 👆
Likewise, I find empty-headed shallow blonde sluts beautiful too. Doesn't stop me from spanking them and making jokes about how stupid they are either.
That's not busting your argument. Just another instance of pointing out your facile reasoning and consistent dodging of supporting your statements. 😂 fortunately ANY level of magical intangibility works just fine
Originally posted by leonidasSpeed of thought >>>> DC speed of light movement. Speed of thought = Marvel speed of light execution. Enough positive evidence which suggests it's more likely than not that Loki can hit a speed of light opponent (which you unsubtely tried to back into without any proof, good one). Also, all the fights I mentioned where Superman wasn't using superspeed and got hit by magic opponents is further proof that although he possesses superspeed, he doesn't use it instantly, nor constantly. More affirmative evidence. Compared to your... utter lack of evidence.
i actually didn't bother to check for a couple reasons--pretty common knowledge kal has lightspeed feats and reflexes, but more importantly, because it doesn't matter. why? one more time?you . . .
have . . .
no . . .
feats . . .
to . . .
show . . .
loki . . .
could . . .
hit . . .
superman . . .
moving . . .
at . . .
super . . .
SPEED!😄
You . . .
conceded . . .
Superman . . .
can't . . .
hit . . .
Loki . . .
and . . .
acknowledged . . .
AoE . . .
ATTACKS!
😄
Originally posted by leonidasYes, I am being serial. You have no proof to suggest that Superman even has a possibility of matching Loki's plane. Assuming your conclusion without proof doesn't shift the burden of evidence onto me. Please. Don't insult yourself like this. By this same notion, without any proof, I'll just assume that Loki can react to Superman's superspeed attacks because "i allow for the possibility." I'll also assume Superman gets one-shotted by Loki's magic because "i allow for the possibility." Wow, "allow[ing] for possibilities" means I don't have to post proof to win arguments! 😂
are you serious? you do like sophistry, eh. i said he MIGHT be able to match loki. you said he COULDN'T. we have no way to prove it EITHER WAY. i allow for the possibility, you dismiss it. well done.oh, so you HAVE scans showing loki hitting someone moving at superspeed??? 😱
i can't wait to see them.
oh, so you HAVE scans showing superman hitting a magically intangible foe??? 😱
Guess you also couldn't wait to see how I just forced you to concede that this fight is a stalemate using your own reductionist arguments. Also: AoE blast, or even K-nite radiation creation (another of your strats). Guess since that'll blunt his superspeed by weakening him, it's an even better option. So how about you take that next step further and concede that Loki has viable options to beat Superman who still can't touch Loki.
😆
turning to comedy when realizing you have nothing and are doing more harm to loki than good? concession accepted. and about time too. 😄
quick--tell me how MY reasoning is the comedy! your gift for originality is equalled only by your gift for saying nothing and making it sound like something. quick--use my 'gift of' phrase and make it less funny! 😱
ahhh . . . solid stuff. actually, i should thank you. haven't had this much fun in a debate in ages.
and kudos on the sweet job 'forcing' a stalemate using abc logic. quauchi will be so proud. cheers
i am curious though: does THIS:
I already have proof that speed of thought >>> speed of light execution and equal to speed of light execution. Sorry you keep ignoring on-panel quantifications. *shrugs*
mean that . . . like . . . EVERYONE in comics who can actually think now has thoughtspeed>>>lightspeed? i just want to know for future debates. you know, batman? aunt may? RHINO?? or do just CERTAIN people benefit from your rock-solid line of reasoning? hmmm?
and which area of effect spell takes kal down again . . .?
Originally posted by leonidasConsidering we've effectively overturned your preconceptions concerning whether Loki fought normal Frost Giants, whether Bor-into-snow was complete PIS, that Loki hasn't quickly put down top tier durability foes like BRB, Thor, classic Strange and shown you that he can go intangible/invisible/undetectable and cast spells in that state, I'm not quite sure how you characterize that as more harm than good for Loki. Your cup of tea, though.
turning to comedy when realizing you have nothing and are doing more harm to loki than good? concession accepted. and about time too. 😄quick--tell me how MY reasoning is the comedy! your gift for originality is equalled only by your gift for saying nothing and making it sound like something. quick--use my 'gift of' phrase and make it less funny! 😱
Your reasoning isn't comedy. It's just shallow and repetitive. Rather than engage in a thoughtful discussion over how Loki and SUperman would fight, you reduced this to superspeed vs intangibility stalemate (whilst ignoring that Loki has viable options). If that's how you want to limit yourself, by all means.
Originally posted by leonidasWas interesting at first for me too until I realized that you were, in effect, really just repeating h1a8's arguments on any fight involving Superman minus the combo to ko principle.
ahhh . . . solid stuff. actually, i should thank you. haven't had this much fun in a debate in ages.and kudos on the sweet job 'forcing' a stalemate using abc logic. quauchi will be so proud. cheers
i am curious though: does THIS:
mean that . . . like . . . EVERYONE in comics who can actually think now has thoughtspeed>>>lightspeed? i just want to know for future debates. you know, batman? aunt may? RHINO?? or do just CERTAIN people benefit from your rock-solid line of reasoning? hmmm?
and which area of effect spell takes kal down again . . .?
Well, since you conceded a stalemate outright, I don't feel like I'm putting words into your mouth. If you want to clarify your position, by all means.
No. Just puts out the possibility that since Loki's been quantified on-panel several times as accomplishing acts with the "speed of thought" specifically, it makes it arguable that for him, speed of thought is a quantifiable type of speed. And between both DC and Marvel, when speed of thought is quantified, its greater than, or equal to, the speed of light.
I dunno, whichever one you were thinking when you mentioned an AoE blast.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Meaning he won't be out for the kill but it doesn't state he cannot use abilities like speed. I usually debate on what's in character and I see his speed as a rarely used tactic in the majority of his fights. If someone wants to argue it's the defining reason as to why he wins the majority then you'll hear me harp on other characters ace cards against these same posters.Now if it's bloodlusted Superman in the thread title I see that as a thread justifier on average for Superman to use speed every time.
Yeah it does Qyan because its refering to his personality and Superman hold back alot including speed.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Considering we've effectively overturned your preconceptions concerning whether Loki fought normal Frost Giants,
👆
whether Bor-into-snow was complete PIS,
huh? i still label that a case of complete PIS for reasons i've explained many times already. you choose to see it differently, fine with me.
that Loki hasn't quickly put down top tier durability foes like BRB,
nowhere did i ever say he didn't put down top tier foes so not sure what you're talking about here . . .
and shown you that he can go intangible/invisible/undetectable and cast spells in that state, I'm not quite sure how you characterize that as more harm than good for Loki. Your cup of tea, though.
nor did i have a preconceived notion regarding this issue. i specifically ASKED for proof he could do so because i did not KNOW. the scan you showed simply says he could kill thor with a simple spell would he have to become solid to cast that spell? beats me. maybe, maybe not. we don't know for sure since he never DID cast it, therefore we STILL have no conclusive proof he could do so. you likely feel he can. i think there is a CHANCE he could, but i'm not willing to grant him that ability without reservation. then again, even if he could, what next? again, i don't know.
It's just shallow and repetitive. Rather than engage in a thoughtful discussion over how Loki and SUperman would fight, you reduced this to superspeed vs intangibility stalemate (whilst ignoring that Loki has viable options).
the first part is partially accurate because the biggest issue IS his speed, so my stance doesn't really NEED to be deep, though i've repeatedly addressed any point that has been raised by anyone who says loki wins. the fact that kal has a massive speed advantage and that loki has no feats to prove he could hit him moving at speed IS a rather large issue i'm afraid. i also said minus the speed blitz, loki's chances go way up. the last part is utterly erroneous--i MYSELF explained exactly how i see loki taking some wins in this match, stating tp as his MOST viable option. again, i've already SAID there is SOME SMALL evidence to suggest he MIGHT be able to counter kal's speed. from the outset--before you were even involved--i gave loki wins. you SEEM to think loki wins EVERY meeting. fine, your choice. i don't see--based on the evidence--how such a stance can be taken, but . . . whatever.
If that's how you want to limit yourself, by all means. Was interesting at first for me too until I realized that you were, in effect, really just repeating h1a8's arguments on any fight involving Superman minus the combo to ko principle.
😂
touche.
difference is i've already allowed that loki has a chance to win this and i've said in a book this fight would be far different. thanks to the forum setting i KNOW kal would use his speed. i do NOT know loki could counter it. i can SPECULATE that he MIGHT be able to counter it, but that's as far as i can reasonably take it. 'mights' and 'speculation' are not enough for me to say loki wins a majority here, but since the chance DOES exist, i also can't say kal wins all these match-ups. but once again, i've already SAID all this.
Well, since you conceded a stalemate outright, I don't feel like I'm putting words into your mouth. If you want to clarify your position, by all means.
it's only a stalemate if i allow for the belief that loki's thought speed>kal's speed. i allow for the POSSIBILITY it might be equal to the task, but the weight of evidence is not very strong. then even if he CAN turn intangible what next? blasts? dodged. insta-enshackle? vibrate free. tp? yes, his best offensive chance, imo. bfr? always a possibility, but bfr's are weak. at this point i turned around and said--what else CAN he do, knowing pretty well that there wouldn't be much else someone would bring up. and there really hasn't. 😬
No. Just puts out the possibility that since Loki's been quantified on-panel several times as accomplishing acts with the "speed of thought" specifically, it makes it arguable that for him, speed of thought is a quantifiable type of speed. And between both DC and Marvel, when speed of thought is quantified, its greater than, or equal to, the speed of light.
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/683/dsphoefeat3lp.jpg
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9016/deathstrokeannual03122pl.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2695/newtitansv206220rougherun0.jpg
slade>>>speed of light?
i know you're not attributing>>>lightspeed thought processes to EVERYONE in both universes, so you're left with picking and choosing WHOSE speed of thought>speed of light. you wanna use that foundation to say loki could clearly react, be my guest. not me.
it's fact that kal has uber speed.
it's forum fact that he can and would use the speed (limits>lightspeed) to it's best effect
simple? yes. undeniable? yes.
I dunno, whichever one you were thinking when you mentioned an AoE blast.
YOU said he would finish kal with some AoE spell. i have no idea which one he could use to ko him.
Originally posted by leonidasLoki turning Bor into snow, when Bor was ambushed and didn't raise his godly defenses is not SMvFL. Especially when considering his magic prowess and power.
huh? i still label that a case of complete PIS for reasons i've explained many times already. you choose to see it differently, fine with me.nowhere did i ever say he didn't put down top tier foes so not sure what you're talking about here . . .
nor did i have a preconceived notion regarding this issue. i specifically ASKED for proof he could do so because i did not KNOW. the scan you showed simply says he could kill thor with a simple spell would he have to become solid to cast that spell? beats me. maybe, maybe not. we don't know for sure since he never DID cast it, therefore we STILL have no conclusive proof he could do so. you likely feel he can. i think there is a CHANCE he could, but i'm not willing to grant him that ability without reservation. then again, even if he could, what next? again, i don't know.
I was partly responding to your skepticism over Loki's magic blasts giving Superman problems. People without a magic vulnerability with similar durability levels have been put down quickly by them.
Loki does cast a spell while intangible/undetectable. It wasn't a spell to kill Thor. It was a spell to give Thor his own strength so that he could fight for Asgard. I don't understand your unwillingness to accept that Loki can cast spells while intangible/undetectable. He can cast spells as an astral projection (a form that reduces his power) and he isn't even really there. When he's intangible/undetectable, he's actually there.
Originally posted by leonidasI don't think Loki wins 10/10, but see below.
the first part is partially accurate because the biggest issue IS his speed, so my stance doesn't really NEED to be deep, though i've repeatedly addressed any point that has been raised by anyone who says loki wins. the fact that kal has a massive speed advantage and that loki has no feats to prove he could hit him moving at speed IS a rather large issue i'm afraid. i also said minus the speed blitz, loki's chances go way up. the last part is utterly erroneous--i MYSELF explained exactly how i see loki taking some wins in this match, stating tp as his MOST viable option. again, i've already SAID there is SOME SMALL evidence to suggest he MIGHT be able to counter kal's speed. from the outset--before you were even involved--i gave loki wins. you SEEM to think loki wins EVERY meeting. fine, your choice. i don't see--based on the evidence--how such a stance can be taken, but . . . whatever.difference is i've already allowed that loki has a chance to win this and i've said in a book this fight would be far different. thanks to the forum setting i KNOW kal would use his speed. i do NOT know loki could counter it. i can SPECULATE that he MIGHT be able to counter it, but that's as far as i can reasonably take it. 'mights' and 'speculation' are not enough for me to say loki wins a majority here, but since the chance DOES exist, i also can't say kal wins all these match-ups. but once again, i've already SAID all this.
it's only a stalemate if i allow for the belief that loki's thought speed>kal's speed. i allow for the POSSIBILITY it might be equal to the task, but the weight of evidence is not very strong. then even if he CAN turn intangible what next? blasts? dodged. insta-enshackle? vibrate free. tp? yes, his best offensive chance, imo. bfr? always a possibility, but bfr's are weak. at this point i turned around and said--what else CAN he do, knowing pretty well that there wouldn't be much else someone would bring up. and there really hasn't.
Wait, but there's still a disconnect here. I see that you're going to remain adamant and "KNOW" that Superman instantly and constantly using superspeed in every fight. I see that you won't even acknowledge a possibility that he might not be in a state of superspeed, not even for a single moment, ever. But then it's only fair that you "KNOW" that Loki will instantly and constantly be intangible/undetectable. Likewise, you won't ever see him coming out of that state, not even for an instant. Since Superman can't touch him, and can never win and Loki has viable options (as you note), then Loki can only win and Superman can only lose... so Loki 10/10?
Originally posted by leonidasSlade can react instantly. How fast his muscles respond is a different story. Loki can react instantly too. And his telepathy, insta-enshackle spells, teleport blink spells and other various magical options aren't limited by muscle movement. In either case, this would still not rehabilitate the fact that by your standards, proving Loki could attack Superman would only further the lopsidedness of this fight in Loki's favor. Because, it's only fair to say:
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/683/dsphoefeat3lp.jpg
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9016/deathstrokeannual03122pl.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2695/newtitansv206220rougherun0.jpgslade>>>speed of light?
i know you're not attributing>>>lightspeed thought processes to EVERYONE in both universes, so you're left with picking and choosing WHOSE speed of thought>speed of light. you wanna use that foundation to say loki could clearly react, be my guest. not me.
it's fact that kal has uber speed.
it's forum fact that he can and would use the speed (limits>lightspeed) to it's best effectsimple? yes. undeniable? yes.
YOU said he would finish kal with some AoE spell. i have no idea which one he could use to ko him.
it's fact that loki has intangibility
it's forum fact that he can and would use the intangibility (speed vibrating =/= magic/dimensional phase) to it's best effect
simple? yes. undeniable? yes. (Ergo, Superman has no chance of winning, Loki has achance of winning. Guess Superman's sh1t out of luck by your standards)
YOU mentioned area spells first: "but area spells could take him out." Back on pg.7. I suppose I'd have to agree with that also. Maybe an AoE spell that halves Superman's powers? *shrugs*
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Loki turning Bor into snow, when Bor was ambushed and didn't raise his godly defenses is not SMvFL. Especially when considering his magic prowess and power.
FL did not want to destroy the city and the innocents as he stated so he didn't use a large area attack to kill spidey. SM knew FL wouldn't be ready for a straight on frontal assault and hence would catch him by surprise--ie--without his defenses ready. both of these were offered as explanation in the book.
on panel. explained. viable and reasonable? if not, then is the difference between SM and a herald>loki and a skyfather?
again, snow-bor is PIS to me for the above and for the retroactive rationalizations that come with accepting it.
I was partly responding to your skepticism over Loki's magic blasts giving Superman problems. People without a magic vulnerability with similar durability levels have been put down quickly by them.
and kal is equal to those people since his vulnerablility to magic is the same as everyone else's. and they would hurt him. if they hit him.
Loki does cast a spell while intangible/undetectable. It wasn't a spell to kill Thor. It was a spell to give Thor his own strength so that he could fight for Asgard.
ahhhhhhh . . . yes. he did. only you never pointed out THAT instance before. if you're right then that WOULD be proof. i have that book somewhere but haven't read it in ages and thought it was astral loki. if it's intangible loki then you HAVE proven your point. 👆
Wait, but there's still a disconnect here. I see that you're going to remain adamant and "KNOW" that Superman instantly and constantly using superspeed in every fight. I see that you won't even acknowledge a possibility that he might not be in a state of superspeed, not even for a single moment, ever.
nah. although given the unrealistic venue of the forum (how's that for irony?) it doesn't seem illogical to assume such would be the case.
But then it's only fair that you "KNOW" that Loki will instantly and constantly be intangible/undetectable. Likewise, you won't ever see him coming out of that state, not even for an instant.
and i can accept THAT line of defense as well. however, the possibility of it happening is contingent upon loki being able to THINK the spell before kal is all over him. and THAT is where your disconnect begins. we simply don't have feats from loki to prove conclusively that such is the case. THAT is the crux of the whole thing.
Slade can react instantly. How fast his muscles respond is a different story. Loki can react instantly too. And his telepathy, insta-enshackle spells, teleport blink spells and other various magical options aren't limited by muscle movement.
meh, i'll not be buying that loki has instantaneous reaction times based on abc when no feats support it. and that again is where the disconnect happens. you're willing to accept he can react instantly--i'm not, though i allow it as a CHANCE based on the very loose evidence that exists.
it's fact that loki has intangibility
it's forum fact that he can and would use the intangibility (speed vibrating =/= magic/dimensional phase) to it's best effect
again, is he fast enough to use it? and we can't say CONCLUSIVELY, that kal could vibrate to match. likely? no. possible? yes.
Guess Superman's sh1t out of luck by your standards)
not until you use something more salient than abc logic to prove loki can cast that spell before kal pummels him.
YOU mentioned area spells first: "but area spells could take him out." Back on pg.7. I suppose I'd have to agree with that also. Maybe an AoE spell that halves Superman's powers? *shrugs*
like i said earlier--beats me. shrug
Originally posted by leonidasFirelord not crushing Spidey isn't why it's PIS. Spidey winning by punching Firelord is why it's PIS.
FL did not want to destroy the city and the innocents as he stated so he didn't use a large area attack to kill spidey. SM knew FL wouldn't be ready for a straight on frontal assault and hence would catch him by surprise--ie--without his defenses ready. both of these were offered as explanation in the book.on panel. explained. viable and reasonable? if not, then is the difference between SM and a herald>loki and a skyfather?
again, snow-bor is PIS to me for the above and for the retroactive rationalizations that come with accepting it.
Street - Herald. God - Skyfather god. There is a significant disconnect here.
Bor-into-snow is not PIS. Your skepticism over it seems more like IDLI, IDH, rather than PIS. And the explanation wasn't retroactive. The explanation accompanied the reveal that it was Loki himself that did the deed.
Originally posted by leonidasSuperman doesn't resist magic like everybody else, e.g., Thor. In any case, we apparently agree that Loki's magic is more than adequate to take Superman out. We're just arguing over whether Loki can apply his magic to Superman.
and kal is equal to those people since his vulnerablility to magic is the same as everyone else's. and they would hurt him. if they hit him.ahhhhhhh . . . yes. he did. only you never pointed out THAT instance before. if you're right then that WOULD be proof. i have that book somewhere but haven't read it in ages and thought it was astral loki. if it's intangible loki then you HAVE proven your point.
It happens in the next issue, Thor #398:
Originally posted by leonidasI honestly don't mean this as an insulting jab, but frankly, I think it's idiotic to assume Superman instantly and constantly stays at a state of superspeed in every single fight.
nah. although given the unrealistic venue of the forum (how's that for irony?) it doesn't seem illogical to assume such would be the case.and i can accept THAT line of defense as well. however, the possibility of it happening is contingent upon loki being able to THINK the spell before kal is all over him. and THAT is where your disconnect begins. we simply don't have feats from loki to prove conclusively that such is the case. THAT is the crux of the whole thing.
Him turning intangible/undetectable doesn't appear to require anything more than a thought and it doesn't appear to take any amount of time that wouldn't be anything more than negligible.
Originally posted by leonidas[/b][/quote]Loki's got on-panel reaction speed feats quantified at speed of thought. Frankly, I don't equate can do it = will do it. But if it's your standard, Loki does have em.
meh, i'll not be buying that loki has instantaneous reaction times based on abc when no feats support it. and that again is where the disconnect happens. you're willing to accept he can react instantly--i'm not, though i allow it as a CHANCE based on the very loose evidence that exists.again, is he fast enough to use it? and we can't say CONCLUSIVELY, that kal could vibrate to match. likely? no. possible? yes.
not until you use something more salient than abc logic to prove loki can cast that spell before kal pummels him.
like i said earlier--beats me.
And vibrating intangible =/= dimensional or molecular phasing. The latter two, which Loki has exhibited.
He's already intangible. He has all the time in the world to cast whatever spell he wants.
I'm listing options for you. How about an AoE spell that halves Superman's power?
Originally posted by manx422
Superman
Originally posted by manx422
Man of Steel
Originally posted by manx422
Superman
Originally posted by manx422
Superman
Originally posted by manx422
Superman
Originally posted by manx422
Superman
Originally posted by manx422
Superman
Originally posted by manx422
Superman
