Originally posted by leonidas
so, knowing it's a NON-PREPPED battle, you still say:Loki ftw
there's an award in that nominations thread where this would fit nicely . . .
That was my point....If Loki acts in character Win
Goes in slapping Supes like a little girl.......Lose
Otherwise this fight will go forever.
prep men don't fight non prep fights.
Originally posted by leonidasYou can't wait? Since Kris' ridiculous ban, I've been working on a Revamped Loki Respect Thread. But I'd rather start from the beginning and organize scans chronologically, rather than pick things here and there and double up my photobucket account with renumbered scans. Besides, what exactly was so unacceptable of Loki two-shotting BRB, curbstomping Masterson Thor or completely pwning classic Dr. Strange magic shields (all of which do not suffer a magic vulnerability unlike Superman)?
loli long while back i challenged you to show me all these uber magics loki could use in direct combat. you said they were forthcoming but have shown exactly NOTHING. you cling to the same old things that have already been rehashed and addressed over and over. i challenged you to prove i was underestimating loki, but the lack of feats you've brought to bear in this thread have only served to HIGHLIGHT the fact that loki IS overrated.
Originally posted by leonidasNice backtracking from Superman using lightspeed movement instantly. But it would still be nice if you have an example of Superman using "ANY level of superspeed" to instantly begin a fight. You obviously consider superspeed to be an extremely insurmountable obstacle for Loki, which means you must believe that Superman utilizes his superspeed (light speed or not) instantly at the start of his fights and constantly thereafter for a healthy majority of the hypothetical 10 fights here. So how about you bolster that opinion by demonstrating with proof that Superman utilizes his superspeed instantly nearly everytime he confronts dangerous foes. And this still wouldn't rebut both DC's and Marvel's on-panel quantifications of speed of thought.
You have shown exactly ZERO evidence to support the fact that loki could hit someone moving at uber speeds. hell, forget lightspeed--show him hitting ANYONE moving at ANY level of superspeed!i said kal has beaten characters like loki but loki has NOT defeated anyone like kal. i said physical combat is loki's weakness, you said he could use his uber magics in direct combat and have shown nothing.
Sorry, but your reliance on Superman's superspeed giving Loki near insurmountable problems hasn't been supported in the slightest. We've gone over several examples where Superman either didn't use his superspeed at all or only used his superspeed towards the end of a fight. Not once have you given me an example where he does so instantly. That would be a start. Then you'd need to prove that he'd do it instantly nearly every single fight. Because if he doesn't, he can get hit by spells. And if you somehow prove this, this still wouldn't rebut both DC's and Marvel's on-panel quantifications of speed of thought.
Originally posted by leonidasTp was addressed as a win for Loki? Ok. Don't remember that. You haven't argued that magical blasts would never hurt Superman, but you have consistently tried to undermine their effect on him. Loki two-shotted Beta Ray Bill with his magic. He's wrecked classic Dr. Strange. His magic is strong. Your arguments for illusions and invisibility might hold water if it wasn't also combined with intangibility (as demonstrated on-panel). And you still haven't addressed intangibility other than with some backhanded insinuation that Superman can vibrate intangible also as if that would put him on the same plane as Loki (to which you conveniently backtracked from). Loki has zapped people for teleportation with a magical beam, but he's also simply blinked them away. Hypnosis could work if Superman is trapped by insta-enshackle.
tp was addressed. blasts could be evaded--and show me where i said they wouldn't hurt kal again--illusions could be dealt with by an uber blast of heat vision from a long distance, invisiblity may work for a time but kal's senses are uber. bfr COULD work if he doesn't have to actually hit him with the spell. it's his best bet though. and hypnotize someone moving at superspeeds?? c'mon . . . not worth addressing.i could show scans of a terrified loki doing his best by raising shield after to ward off an angered thor and NOT being able to do anything BUT keep him away for a short time. that is pretty much what i see happening here, only kal woudln't stop like thor did when loki begged him to.
Because Thor is Thor... and Superman is not Thor?
Originally posted by leonidasExactly what fights of Superman's are you referring to where Superman uses his combat superspeed (light speed or otherwise) from beginning to the end of the fight, such that your satisfied having your entire argument literally hinge on what Loki can do in response to superspeed? Just because you decided to pigeonhole this fight into an utterly shallow inquiry over "teh superspeedz?!!!11" doesn't release you from proving that indeed, it will only be a battle over "teh superspeedz?!!!11" And even if you did, this still wouldn't rebut both DC's and Marvel's on-panel quantifications of speed of thought. Just because you don't know Loki as well as you profess to know him, doesn't make him overrated. And frankly, the number of things I've had to prove to you (which ostensibly means you were wrong and/or unaware of certain facts) throws your relative knowledge of Loki into doubt.
you say i'm somehow being unreasonable when you have shown exactly zero proof that loki can deal with superspeed assaults and cast all these 'great' spells while in direct combat. but i'm unreasonable. you've used abc logic, the laughable argument that loki is a 'god' and stereotypes to dismiss kal's chances in this, and when challenged to show proof you've fallen back on the same old things that i've already dealt with over and again. there is no proof loki can deal with kal's speed. there is no proof loki has anything that could put kal down before kal pummels him into oblivion and loki is overrated as your lack of feats and efforts have clearly shown.kal for the solid majority, and this discussion has run its course.
If you say so. I'll be posting more examples of Loki's magic spells later whether you want to continue the discussion or not, because I said I would. But I won't expect you to prove that Superman uses superspeed instantly and constantly throughout this fight though. In which case, I'll happily use DC's on-panel quantification of speed of thought vs speed of light movement and Marvel's on-panel quantification of speed of thought vs speed of light execution to override your present proof that Superman instantly and constantly uses superspeed in nearly every fight: which is no proof at all.
😂
one more post where you have proven . . . nothing. imagine my shock. shock go back through the last bunch of pages and what do you notice? nary a scan of LOKI! well done.
and i don't NEED to prove superman uses speed all the time--again, a terrible argument on your part. the forum rules prove that FOR me. if you want to question his speed, be my guest. would this battle go this way in a book? of course not. but the forum is NOT a book, which you seem to think.
i KNOW kal has speed, therefore, by forum rule, he can and would use it.
YOU have ZERO proof that loki can counter that speed. you type a lot, but as per the norm in this discussion, prove nothing.
and my knowledge of loki is such that i didn't simply hand him this fight because he uses TEH UBER MAGICZZZ!@!!1!, or better yet, because he was an almighty and invincible "GAWD"!! 😂
use your abc logic all you'd like. VERY solid foundation you've built there. just remember that the next time quanchi uses it against you. 😉
and i most certainly didn't backtrack from anything. lol at the thought though. i made YOUR job easier! you say you don't like the idea of kal using lightspeed--i say fine, let's not USE lightspeed. let's use ANY level of superspeed! and you say i'm backtracking? honestly, this isn't going very well for you right now . . .
nor did i backtrack from the intangibility angle. do i KNOW kal could match loki's plane? no more than you KNOW he couldn't, but we're supposed to side with YOU? again, presumptuous much?
perhaps you'll find all the evidence you need to prove me wrong and convince me loki wins once you've gathered all your material. at which point i'll say well done. for the moment however, you've done nothing but HURT loki's rep with your efforts in this discussion. i look forward to the new respect thread though.
Originally posted by Deadline
CIS means he will hold back though.
CIS may dictate he woudl hold back from killing him, PZ, but he won't hold back his speed, which is all i've been saying.
i'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything. been around the forum too long to know most opinions can't be altered 😂 doesn't change the fact though that loki has no speed feats to speak of, nor any feats that would indicate he could handle kal's speed--whatever level you want to assign to it.
Originally posted by leonidas
CIS may dictate he woudl hold back from killing him, PZ, but he won't hold back his speed, which is all i've been saying.i'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything. been around the forum too long to know most opinions can't be altered 😂 doesn't change the fact though that loki has no speed feats to speak of, nor any feats that would indicate he could handle kal's speed--whatever level you want to assign to it.
I thought CIS would mean he would hold back on speed.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Where do you get that from?
CIS dictates that they will fight how there personality dictates.
Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively.
Originally posted by DeadlineMeaning he won't be out for the kill but it doesn't state he cannot use abilities like speed. I usually debate on what's in character and I see his speed as a rarely used tactic in the majority of his fights. If someone wants to argue it's the defining reason as to why he wins the majority then you'll hear me harp on other characters ace cards against these same posters.
CIS dictates that they will fight how there personality dictates.Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively.
Now if it's bloodlusted Superman in the thread title I see that as a thread justifier on average for Superman to use speed every time.
Originally posted by leonidas"Black!" said the pot to the kettle. I've provided you several scans of Loki. So did Enyalus and others. When you unilaterally dismiss scans of Bor-into-snow, two-shotting BRB, curmstomping Masterson Thor and owning classic Dr. Strange then I find your impatient demands for scans of spells that Loki can cast to be quite disingenuous.
one more post where you have proven . . . nothing. imagine my shock. go back through the last bunch of pages and what do you notice? nary a scan of LOKI! well done.and i don't NEED to prove superman uses speed all the time--again, a terrible argument on your part. the forum rules prove that FOR me. if you want to question his speed, be my guest. would this battle go this way in a book? of course not. but the forum is NOT a book, which you seem to think.
You don't need to prove Superman instantly uses superspeed most of the time? Fine. Then I don't need to prove Loki uses intangibility/invisibility/undetectability most of the time either. He can do it, so he does. Because "the forum rules prove that FOR me." And since in the instance I provided, he does it between instantly between panels and I've cited to where DC quantifies speed of thought as superior to speed of light execution and Marvel quantifies speed of thought as equal to speed of light execution, than Loki wins. Because no matter what, Superman can't ever touch him. Not even at the start of battle. Loki has only the ability to hit Superman and never be hit. Guess Loki curbstomps via this route.
Originally posted by leonidasi KNOW loki has intangibility/invisibility/undetectability, therefore, by forum rule, he can and would use it.
i KNOW kal has speed, therefore, by forum rule, he can and would use it.YOU have ZERO proof that loki can counter that speed. you type a lot, but as per the norm in this discussion, prove nothing.
and my knowledge of loki is such that i didn't simply hand him this fight because he uses TEH UBER MAGICZZZ!@!!1!, or better yet, because he was an almighty and invincible "GAWD"!! 😂
YOU have ZERO proof that superman can counter that tactic. you type a lot, but as per the norm in this discussion, prove nothing.
and my knowledge of superman is such that i didn't simply hand him this fight because he uses TEH UBER SUPERSPEEDZ!@!!1!, or better yet, because he was an almighty and invincile "GAWD-LIKE KRYPTONIANONIAN"!! 😂
Originally posted by leonidasFrankly, you're trying to use abc logic on me, by placing Superman over Thor simply because of your predilection for reducing this fight to a shallow argument over superspeed. You should consider that while it is easier to argue in this way, I don't find it very probative or convincing.
use your abc logic all you'd like. VERY solid foundation you've built there. just remember that the next time quanchi uses it against you.and i most certainly didn't backtrack from anything. lol at the thought though. i made YOUR job easier! you say you don't like the idea of kal using lightspeed--i say fine, let's not USE lightspeed. let's use ANY level of superspeed! and you say i'm backtracking? honestly, this isn't going very well for you right now . . .
nor did i backtrack from the intangibility angle. do i KNOW kal could match loki's plane? no more than you KNOW he couldn't, but we're supposed to side with YOU? again, presumptuous much?
perhaps you'll find all the evidence you need to prove me wrong and convince me loki wins once you've gathered all your material. at which point i'll say well done. for the moment however, you've done nothing but HURT loki's rep with your efforts in this discussion. i look forward to the new respect thread though.
Yes, backtracking, since you have no examples where Superman instantly uses lightspeed combat. But by all means, show me. If you don't, then you're either wrong or you concede. Considering that you're not admitting either, than you're backtracking.
I'm not proving a negative, i.e., Superman can't match Loki's plane through superspeed. Fact is, there are different types of intangibility via dimensional phasing, and vibrating superspeed phasing and density phasing. I don't assume Kitty Pryde can punch J'onn. And I don't have to prove J'onn can't be hit by Kitty Pryde. The burden's fairly and squarely on you.
I'll post examples of spells that would give Superman problems. But considering your standard of argumentation, I shouldn't have to since Loki can never be touched by Superman and can only be hit by Loki. He can only win. Easy argument? Sure. Specious argument? You bet. Reductionist nonsense? Absolutely. But if that's what floats your boat, it can sink your boat too. Still waiting for a more substantive argument concerning Superman's superspeed, and I will post examples of Loki's spells soon (other than those already posted because somehow they don't count).
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
"Black!" said the pot to the kettle. I've provided you several scans of Loki. So did Enyalus and others. When you unilaterally dismiss scans of Bor-into-snow, two-shotting BRB, curmstomping Masterson Thor and owning classic Dr. Strange then I find your impatient demands for scans of spells that Loki can cast to be quite disingenuous.You don't need to prove Superman instantly uses superspeed most of the time? Fine. Then I don't need to prove Loki uses intangibility/invisibility/undetectability most of the time either. He can do it, so he does. Because "the forum rules prove that FOR me." And since in the instance I provided, he does it between instantly between panels and I've cited to where DC quantifies speed of thought as superior to speed of light execution and Marvel quantifies speed of thought as equal to speed of light execution, than Loki wins. Because no matter what, Superman can't ever touch him. Not even at the start of battle. Loki has only the ability to hit Superman and never be hit. Guess Loki curbstomps via this route. i KNOW loki has intangibility/invisibility/undetectability, therefore, by forum rule, he can and would use it.
^ This part was all win.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
"Black!" said the pot to the kettle. I've provided you several scans of Loki. So did Enyalus and others. When you unilaterally dismiss scans of Bor-into-snow, two-shotting BRB, curmstomping Masterson Thor and owning classic Dr. Strange then I find your impatient demands for scans of spells that Loki can cast to be quite disingenuous.
snow-bor, yes. 2-shotting bill from behind. great feat! didn't really see him do anything to strange . . .
and impatient? lol
you never said how long it would take, but whatever. we've been at it a few days, i figure that's enough time. it's not, that's fine. you say you got scans i wait for them.
You don't need to prove Superman instantly uses superspeed most of the time? Fine. Then I don't need to prove Loki uses intangibility/invisibility/undetectability most of the time either. He can do it, so he does. Because "the forum rules prove that FOR me." And since in the instance I provided, he does it between instantly between panels and I've cited to where DC quantifies speed of thought as superior to speed of light execution and Marvel quantifies speed of thought as equal to speed of light execution, than Loki wins. Because no matter what, Superman can't ever touch him. Not even at the start of battle. Loki has only the ability to hit Superman and never be hit. Guess Loki curbstomps via this route. i KNOW loki has intangibility/invisibility/undetectability, therefore, by forum rule, he can and would use it.
BWHAHAHAH! you don't do the whole turn-things-around-on-your-opponent very well, do you?
you see, the difference here is rather rudimentary yet seemingly escapes you over and again--i don't need to prove kal uses superspeed in battles because he does--A LOT. and since it's in his powerset, i can do so.
the problem with YOUR stance (comical as the attempt was) is that, one more time . . .
you . . .
have . . .
no . . .
proof . . .
loki . . .
could . . .
HIT . . .
superman . . .
moving . . .
at . . .
super . . .
SPEED!!!
so, while your attempts to turn things around are appreciated and made me laugh, they are of course as futile as the rest of your arguments have been.
i'm afraid the debate isn't very complex. you seem to like to imagine yourself as pretty bright though, so maybe the simplicity of this thing is just beneath you? this really isn't very high brow, i'm sorry. 🙁
superman is like, WWAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY faster than loki!! 😱
and if loki can't hit him, he can't win. you wanna say he goes intangible and kal can't hit him and it's a draw, i couldn't care less. frankly, it is more plausible than most of what you've tried to pass off.
kal is fast. loki is too slow and has never been shown to hit a speedster. try and obscure that basic defiiciency of your argument all you'd like though. 😄
and my knowledge of superman is such that i didn't simply hand him this fight because he uses TEH UBER SUPERSPEEDZ!@!!1!, or better yet, because he was an almighty and invincile "GAWD-LIKE KRYPTONIANONIAN"!! 😂
apparently not, and it was a lot funnier when i did it. 🙂
Frankly, you're trying to use abc logic on me, by placing Superman over Thor simply because of your predilection for reducing this fight to a shallow argument over superspeed.
newsflash--that's what it IS over.
You should consider that while it is easier to argue in this way, I don't find it very probative or convincing.
lol that's funny, cuz i find it works beautifully.
Yes, backtracking, since you have no examples where Superman instantly uses lightspeed combat.
oh noez, i'm busted and my argument falls to pieces. 😂 fortunately ANY level of superspeed works just fine.
But by all means, show me. If you don't, then you're either wrong or you concede. Considering that you're not admitting either, than you're backtracking.
i actually didn't bother to check for a couple reasons--pretty common knowledge kal has lightspeed feats and reflexes, but more importantly, because it doesn't matter. why? one more time?
you . . .
have . . .
no . . .
feats . . .
to . . .
show . . .
loki . . .
could . . .
hit . . .
superman . . .
moving . . .
at . . .
super . . .
SPEED!
😄
I'm not proving a negative, i.e., Superman can't match Loki's plane through superspeed. Fact is, there are different types of intangibility via dimensional phasing, and vibrating superspeed phasing and density phasing. I don't assume Kitty Pryde can punch J'onn. And I don't have to prove J'onn can't be hit by Kitty Pryde. The burden's fairly and squarely on you.
are you serious? you do like sophistry, eh. i said he MIGHT be able to match loki. you said he COULDN'T. we have no way to prove it EITHER WAY. i allow for the possibility, you dismiss it. well done.
I'll post examples of spells that would give Superman problems. But considering your standard of argumentation, I shouldn't have to since Loki can never be touched by Superman and can only be hit by Loki.
oh, so you HAVE scans showing loki hitting someone moving at superspeed??? 😱
i can't wait to see them.