Originally posted by Warlord
cast spells?
😕
so you've seen him cast spells while intangible? you've seen him cast spells at superspeed? and which spell exactly is he going to use to ko superman again? and he'll be able to hit him with said spell because you've seen him use his superspeed to hit someone moving at superman's speed? and he'll be able to cast a spell before kal pummels him into oblivion because of his superspeed reactions and great record in physical combat, correct?
i can't wait to see all the proof. because, you know, no one else in this thread has provided any so maybe you or the others are the ones that will do it? 🙂
let's put it that way...
if the fight starts and supes blitzes him before he goes intangible then he obviously wins.
if on the other hand he gets intangible before superman strikes then I see no restriction of him using his magic on superman. I could challenge u to prove us that he CANNOT use magic while intangible which is more unreasonable IMO.
As for him targeting him. why not? I don't see superman getting to the other side of the world just to avoid a mesmerism spell.
If vampires can affect him Loki surely can.
Originally posted by Warlord
let's put it that way...
if the fight starts and supes blitzes him before he goes intangible then he obviously wins.
if on the other hand he gets intangible before superman strikes then I see no restriction of him using his magic on superman. I could challenge u to prove us that he CANNOT use magic while intangible which is more unreasonable IMO.
As for him targeting him. why not? I don't see superman getting to the other side of the world just to avoid a mesmerism spell.
If vampires can affect him Loki surely can.
you want me to prove a negative? 😐 okay, prove i don't have an invisible dragon in garage then i'll tackle your request . . .
vampires have inconsistent effects on superman and he's going to mesmerize kal while kal is flying around at superspeed?
sigh . . .
honestly, i've about had it with this thread, though it has been fun.
Originally posted by leonidas
you want me to prove a negative? 😐 okay, prove i don't have an invisible dragon in garage then i'll tackle your request . . .vampires have inconsistent effects on superman and he's going to mesmerize kal while kal is flying around at superspeed?
sigh . . .
honestly, i've about had it with this thread, though it has been fun.
what's the negative...you argue that loki cannot cast spells while intangible....and I wonder, what restricts him from doing so when we have seen many magicians doing it in the past (strange for example).
although I bet you do have a dragon in your garage 😉
as for speed he only needs eye contact to mesmerize him,. unless supes knows and averts his eyes
Originally posted by Warlord
what's the negative...you argue that loki cannot cast spells while intangible....and I wonder, what restricts him from doing so when we have seen many magicians doing it in the past (strange for example).
although I bet you do have a dragon in your garage 😉
as for speed he only needs eye contact to mesmerize him,. unless supes knows and averts his eyes
This may sound weird but Supes should be able to handle hypnotism due to his unique physiology. Being his powers will always try to keep him in the same state. Loki would resort to those measures only if he was desperate. He is more about Subterfuge. =
Find out about Supes weaknesses through Lex.
Then hit him with a coordinated strike of Magic when he is at his weakest, being when he is Clark in the Bugle.
Loki doesn't take chances like facing Supes head on in melee combat!
Originally posted by leonidasThey're not. They've been fighting against Bor and Odin for millenia. 😐
they are.not in any qauntifiable way. why you harp on the issue still i've no idea, but continue if you feel it aids your case somehow.
kal has seen through illusions many times with his senses and loki would need to cast the spell. then he'd still need a spell to strike kal once kal started moving at speed even if the illusions worked for a time.
You mean, "Not in any quantifiable way that would make them a threat to Superman." Which is you just quantifying them below Superman even though you already admit you can't quantify how amped they were. This isn't about building my case. It's about scrutinizing your's and how you lay burdens of proof on everybody but yourself.
As per your burden of proof, show me where Superman sees through a magical illusion. Then afterwards, I'll post all sorts of magical illusions and you can show me if, and how Superman has ever dealt with those.
Originally posted by leonidasJust because you don't like on-panel quantifications of the speed of thought as it relates to the speed of light movement (DC) and speed of light execution (Marvel) doesn't mitigate any less how it supports my opinions and damages your's. But again, this inquiry is inapposite because Superman has repeatedly demonstrated superspeed after taking the measure of his foe and getting beat up. I've not seen Superman instantly use light speed at the start of a battle, not even against magicians whom he's measured in previous battles. I await your proof he would do otherwise than he has.
oi. sophistry. i'll not engage in a debate about the undetermined speed of loki's thoughts based on inconsistently portrayed abc logic. you feel that to be a strong foundation of proof, bully for you. crux of the whole thing is has loki shown to be able to cast and react to the speeds kal has repeatedly demonstrated. you have shown no proof whatsoever. everyone can see it yet you continue to harp on irrelevent parts of the discussion. when you have proof of loki's being able to deal with clark's speed beyond saying he can think fast because someone else has done this or that, post it and prove me wrong. simple as.no you didn't but don't bother, it has no bearing.
I posted the link to the Ghost Rider hellfire scan. On pg. 7. Not quite sure how you missed it. But let me provide more context behind Thor resisting hellfire. Because Ghost Rider lays everybody out one at a time with it as it "sear[s] not the flesh, but the soul" of Angel, Tigra, Cap, Ironman.. and not Thor:
Originally posted by leonidasYou asked for when Thor shows resistance to magical attacks without Mjolnir, ignore the Ghost Rider hellfire link that I put up, ask me for a Mephisto hellfire scan, and then say it doesn't matter. Well, for someone who sure asks for a lot of proof and scans, you sure have a funny way of treating them once I give them to you.
agreed, as is this discussion.what? only if bor had time to RAISE the defenses could he have stopped the spell. how is that showing increased resistence exactly?
bor was a god too. lot of good that did him. so loki can't transmute balder, or volstagg or heimdal either because they are gods too. and who cares if he's a god? kal has the powers of a god. don't see your point.
Only if Bor had reason to raise his defenses which he didn't. And of course you somehow quantified how long it takes for Bor to raise his defenses. The same way he showed increased inherent power when he unleashed his true godly power when fighting Thor on Earth? Although the argument can be made it was referring to shields, it doesn't change the fact that in either scenario, whether it be increased magical resistance or magical shields, Superman has neither.
We're talking about Thor. Who has a long experience of fighting Loki's magic on it's godly level. Thor's immortal/godly status is an essential part of his character and is specifically cited for being responsible for a great deal of his strengths and resiliency (not just magical). And Superman may have powers akin to a god, but he has no immortal nature that makes him more resilient to magic. In fact, DC went out of its way to show he has no resistance to magic.
Originally posted by leonidasHe's not in astral form. He travels to Seth's Dimension of Death where Thor's being captive. Here you see him teleport in solid form, and immediately walk through a wall to where Thor was being held. Notice also, that he does it between panels. Notice also, that he isn't just intangible, but he's also invisible and undetectable. Now I have no idea how long it would take him, but it doesn't appear to be much a time issue here:
hmm, thought he was in astral form there. i'll check. i said he can cast in astral form. never saw him do it intangible. and even if he can, he'd then need to cast 2 spells and still show he can hit kal moving at speed.
Originally posted by leonidasYou did say that Superman could vibrate on the same plane as Loki, and I quote you, "kal can vibrate intangible as well and has matched his body frequency with that of intangible beings in the past." Now, if this is some backhanded comment that serves no purpose than other to merely insinuate a weak argumentative point that you had no intention of ever bolstering... fine. The only black and white answer which I'm looking for is, "Do you have proof that Superman instantly goes to light speed while combating dangerous foes, more importantly, dangerous magical foes?"
never said he could. you said he couldn't. i already said if he could go intangible it might buy him time. i'm sure you're aware, but not all these situations arise in the books so we need to suspend a little disbelief which makes taking a firm stance pretty ridiculous, hence the hedging of some of my bets. likely that loki can deal with kal's speed? no. is there a chance? yes. a chance kal wouldn't blitz from the start? yes, a small one based on forum rules. if he doesn't could loki win? of course. it's really not that difficult to keep both positions in mind at all. you seem to demand this black and white answer which is frankly ridiculous nor--by any stretch of teh imagination--are you owed that.
Originally posted by leonidasYes. We're not debating Loki vs Thor though. We're debating Loki vs Superman. Because Loki with his magic presents far more problems to Superman than it does to Thor. Don't conflate the two scenarios.
exactly he avoids physical battle with thor because thor>>loki in h2h.because he CAN keep distance from thor. not so against kal.
if he gets time. despite all your efforts you've shown no proof to support the idea he could deal with kal's speed or use a speel to hit him when he's actively trying to avoid loki.
How about you prove it?
Show me where Kal goes instantly to light speed and you might have a point. As it stands, because of your blustering approach to demanding proof from me, I'm going to turn around and demand proof that Superman goes instantly to light speed at the start of the fight. Scans would be nice.
Originally posted by leonidasSuperman had knowledge of a lot of his foes before. He still goes in, takes some shots, and catches their measure though because of his regard for the sanctity of life. It's his character. And CIS is on. How about you recognize that you're dodging the inquiry for proof by hiding behind loaded terms like "knowledge" and "full use of his abilities."
prove kal could use his speed to avoid being blasted byb magic in a forum battle where he gets knowledge and full use of his abilities? how about if you feign reasonableness and see that for the ridiculous demand it is.once again, i've offered explanations for my reasoning and you've spent time parrying and dodging and harping on tangential points.
prove loki can deal with kal's speed.
enlighten us with your vision of the battle with any proof at all to support the claim loki can handle kal's speed and win. show us the spells loki would use to ko kal. show us . . . anything at all, actually.
Considering that you couch your opinions in "if loki had a little prep, if he had feats showing he could deal with clark's speed," neither of which he has (according to you), then your explanations have a gaping hole in them.
How about you prove that Loki would have to instantly react to an instant lightspeed blitz at the start of the battle?
In the scenarios where Loki doesn't let his foolish superiority complex override his reason and undermine his tactical advantage: He could use multiple illusions or magical intangibility/invisibility/undetectability combined with magical blasts (which would (and has) hurt Superman, contrary to your denials). Loki can also hypnotize him for fun, magically insta-enshackle him, telepathically assault him, simply teleport blink him away to some nether dimension or just use an AoE blast.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
In the scenarios where Loki doesn't let his foolish superiority complex override his reason and undermine his tactical advantage: He could use multiple illusions or magical intangibility/invisibility/undetectability combined with magical blasts (which would (and has) hurt Superman, contrary to your denials). Loki can also hypnotize him for fun, magically insta-enshackle him, telepathically assault him, simply teleport blink him away to some nether dimension or just use an AoE blast.
lol
i long while back i challenged you to show me all these uber magics loki could use in direct combat. you said they were forthcoming but have shown exactly NOTHING. you cling to the same old things that have already been rehashed and addressed over and over. i challenged you to prove i was underestimating loki, but the lack of feats you've brought to bear in this thread have only served to HIGHLIGHT the fact that loki IS overrated.
you have shown exactly ZERO evidence to support the fact that loki could hit someone moving at uber speeds. hell, forget lightspeed--show him hitting ANYONE moving at ANY level of superspeed!
i said kal has beaten characters like loki but loki has NOT defeated anyone like kal. i said physical combat is loki's weakness, you said he could use his uber magics in direct combat and have shown nothing.
tp was addressed. blasts could be evaded--and show me where i said they wouldn't hurt kal again--illusions could be dealt with by an uber blast of heat vision from a long distance, invisiblity may work for a time but kal's senses are uber. bfr COULD work if he doesn't have to actually hit him with the spell. it's his best bet though. and hypnotize someone moving at superspeeds?? c'mon . . . not worth addressing.
i could show scans of a terrified loki doing his best by raising shield after to ward off an angered thor and NOT being able to do anything BUT keep him away for a short time. that is pretty much what i see happening here, only kal woudln't stop like thor did when loki begged him to.
you say i'm somehow being unreasonable when you have shown exactly zero proof that loki can deal with superspeed assaults and cast all these 'great' spells while in direct combat. but i'm unreasonable. you've used abc logic, the laughable argument that loki is a 'god' and stereotypes to dismiss kal's chances in this, and when challenged to show proof you've fallen back on the same old things that i've already dealt with over and again. there is no proof loki can deal with kal's speed. there is no proof loki has anything that could put kal down before kal pummels him into oblivion and loki is overrated as your lack of feats and efforts have clearly shown.
kal for the solid majority, and this discussion has run its course.
Since when would Loki decide to just attack Superman upon seeing what he can do!
As I previously wrote It would take him one day to locate Luthor, do him a favour and receive all the info he would need to weaken Clark.
I could kill Supes walking into the Daily Bugle with a bag of Kryptonite, a dagger made of vampire teeth, a live web came of Ma Kent held at gunpoint and a few binding spells. Loki is just the guy to be able to accomplish this. Making this fight non prep is pointless because prep is all Loki does!
Loki for the win.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeDepends on which writer you ask. His magical weakness was mentioned in legion of three worlds and jurgens cites it as a huge weakness for him. That's just two examples letting you know it still exists.
PC-Superman had a magic-weakness. Post-Crisis Supes has just an vulnerability though he has become quite resistant to magic during the last few years.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaWho easily accepts feats of Thor's and the Surfer's? I don't seem to recall most if any posters claiming majority victories based on their most powerful attacks/exotic abilities. How many posters say godblast for the win?
Considering that this is a non-PIS enviorment and that Clark has general knowledge of the opposition, he'd have no reason not to take the opponent down as fast as he can (even moreso considering his opponent is a magical one).A better question is, why are people so fast to jump on Superman using his speed, a tactic that he'd most likely use given the circumstances, yet easily accept obscure or rarely used feats for characters like Surfer or Thor, eventough the chances of those type of characters thinking of doing just that are much smaller than in Superman's case ?
