Originally posted by jaden101You gotta remember that Preston was outnumbered many times and kicked ass as Wesley did, and that one on one/two on two battles are different than one on many. Also that Preston, in this scenario, has knowledge of Wesley and bullet bending.
RJ is right. Gun Kata has nothing to do with dodging bullets. It has to do with staying out of the statistically predictable trajectories. Preston has no way to know where that trajectory will be coming from due to the bullet bending and so won't know which was is the correct one for him to move to be out of the way.Fact of the matter is that Gibson's screen feats are vastly more impressive that Preston's or Zero's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAd9hdteAeo
This one scene means he'd rape Preston and Zero.
As for intelligence. How smart and skilled to you have to be to set up a shot like he did at the end of the movie?
Zero's 3 feats...An open shot snipe which Gibson's is infinitely more impressive than. Taking out a handful of militia in the raid at the start of the movie. Gibson's attack on the fraternity kills far more people who are far more dangerous. And he shoots the cigar out of Wolverine's mouth from 15 yards (woop-dee-doo)
Gibson's showing against the fraternity is also far more impressive than Preston's shootout scene. Gibson kills until weapons are expended and then snatches his dead enemies weapons from mid air before they've hit the ground in order to continue killing. He does this numerous times. Preston reloads from his clips in his cloak and the ones on the floor.
You can only go by what you see and Gibson's showing is far more impressive than either Zero or Preston...By a LOOOONNGGG way.
Hell, Preston doesn't even need is eyes. He could kill the lights and take them out with ease.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You gotta remember that Preston was outnumbered many times and kicked ass as Wesley did, and that one on one/two on two battles are different than one on many. Also that Preston, in this scenario, has knowledge of Wesley and bullet bending.Hell, Preston doesn't even need is eyes. He could kill the lights and take them out with ease.
As I've already said. Having knowledge of them isn't enough. As a fact, Gun Kata was never devised with curved bullet trajectories in mind. Therefor Preston's Gun Kata is completely useless as he would have no idea where the shots would be coming from. He may well know the origin of the bullet but he would move according to that...Even though it's entirely plausible that the bullet might hit him at a 90 degree angle from it's origin point given what Fox did with the full 360 degree curved shot.
This is the crux of it. Fox and Gibson can shoot both Preston and Zero from outwith the line of sight. They could shoot out the window of a different floor and curve the bullet round and in the window to take out their enemy.
As for Preston turning out the lights. This didn't have anything to do with him having keen senses. It was still based on the Gun Kata principles of bullet trajectories being predictable. Fox's and Gibson's aren't predictable using the principles of Gun Kata.
So he dies.
Originally posted by jaden101Yeah, I guess you're right. I suppose what it comes down to is stealth, who has the advantage there?
As I've already said. Having knowledge of them isn't enough. As a fact, Gun Kata was never devised with curved bullet trajectories in mind. Therefor Preston's Gun Kata is completely useless as he would have no idea where the shots would be coming from. He may well know the origin of the bullet but he would move according to that...Even though it's entirely plausible that the bullet might hit him at a 90 degree angle from it's origin point given what Fox did with the full 360 degree curved shot.This is the crux of it. Fox and Gibson can shoot both Preston and Zero from outwith the line of sight. They could shoot out the window of a different floor and curve the bullet round and in the window to take out their enemy.
As for Preston turning out the lights. This didn't have anything to do with him having keen senses. It was still based on the Gun Kata principles of bullet trajectories being predictable. Fox's and Gibson's aren't predictable using the principles of Gun Kata.
So he dies.
If Preston gets the jump on the bullet benders, he'll open up with rapid fire and likely they'll go down. Same with Zero getting the jump on them. I don't recall the bullet benders being very stealthy. However, being what they are, "Weapons of fate", one could argue that stealth is one of their areas of expertise.
On the other hand, the bullet benders are on the offensive here, IMO being in Preston and Zero's shoes, they could work together and form a trap of sorts. Lotta possibilities.
Lots of possibilities indeed. We could script a win for either side using multiple scenarios but that'd be a waste of time. As I say, the onscreen feats of Gibson far outmatch those of Preston and especially Zero (obviously seeing as he didn't have much with not being a really big part of the Wolverine movie)
I think if Zero had a movie then some of his feats would be utterly unbelievable but alas we don't have much to go on and what we do have to go on...He'd die.
Originally posted by jaden101I'm trying really hard no to "script", I'm just saying that if Preston gets the drop on Wesley, Wesley will likely be done. Remember that scene in Wanted where the old man got the drop on Wesley?
Lots of possibilities indeed. We could script a win for either side using multiple scenarios but that'd be a waste of time. As I say, the onscreen feats of Gibson far outmatch those of Preston and especially Zero (obviously seeing as he didn't have much with not being a really big part of the Wolverine movie)I think if Zero had a movie then some of his feats would be utterly unbelievable but alas we don't have much to go on and what we do have to go on...He'd die.
What impressed me most about Zero was when he dropped like tenish guys in the opening scene without even looking at them. That shit was uber, man. That and his agility.
If I were to argue for the bullet benders, I would bring up the fact that Wesley and Fox worked great as a team. Remember the scene where Wesley flips the gold Mustang off her Vette and caps the Don?
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I'm trying really hard no to "script", I'm just saying that if Preston gets the drop on Wesley, Wesley will likely be done. Remember that scene in Wanted where the old man got the drop on Wesley?What impressed me most about Zero was when he dropped like tenish guys in the opening scene without even looking at them. That shit was uber, man. That and his agility.
If I were to argue for the bullet benders, I would bring up the fact that Wesley and Fox worked great as a team. Remember the scene where Wesley flips the gold Mustang off her Vette and caps the Don?
Zero's opening is impressive but not on the level of the attack on the fraternity.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well, there weren't as many people around to shoot.....
Almost reminds me of Full Metal Jacket.
These are great days we're living, bros. We are jolly green giants, walking the Earth with guns. These people we wasted here today are the finest human beings we will ever know. After we rotate back to the world, we're gonna miss not having anyone around that's worth shooting.
Originally posted by jaden101
RJ is right. Gun Kata has nothing to do with dodging bullets. It has to do with staying out of the statistically predictable trajectories. Preston has no way to know where that trajectory will be coming from due to the bullet bending and so won't know which was is the correct one for him to move to be out of the way.Fact of the matter is that Gibson's screen feats are vastly more impressive that Preston's or Zero's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAd9hdteAeo
This one scene means he'd rape Preston and Zero.
As for intelligence. How smart and skilled to you have to be to set up a shot like he did at the end of the movie?
Zero's 3 feats...An open shot snipe which Gibson's is infinitely more impressive than. Taking out a handful of militia in the raid at the start of the movie. Gibson's attack on the fraternity kills far more people who are far more dangerous. And he shoots the cigar out of Wolverine's mouth from 15 yards (woop-dee-doo)
Gibson's showing against the fraternity is also far more impressive than Preston's shootout scene. Gibson kills until weapons are expended and then snatches his dead enemies weapons from mid air before they've hit the ground in order to continue killing. He does this numerous times. Preston reloads from his clips in his cloak and the ones on the floor.
You can only go by what you see and Gibson's showing is far more impressive than either Zero or Preston...By a LOOOONNGGG way.
No. What I said. To both you and AC.
"Bullet bending does nothing to improve Gibson's or Fox's chances: the bullet still ends up in the same location they are intending it, it just travels in an arch. Preston is dodging the bullet, not the trajectory. Where the bullet ends up is what he dodges. I'm not even sure why any of you think that's a legit point."
Preston dodges the end location, not the actual trajectory. The trajectory is the path.
More specifically, Preston is dodging the most highly probable trajectories that would intersect with his person. (If we want to get pedantic about it, sure, he's dodging the trajectory.) He just happens to have mastered it.
How is bending a bullet from point A to point B going to hit Preston any better? It's still the same location, when it crosses with Preston's person, as it is anywhere else. When do we ever see Preston hide behind a corner? Correct. When do we see him always go out in the open? Correct.
This is not debatable. This is the last time I will discuss this: It's point A to point B. No amount of fanboyism or anti-character arguments will ever ever ever change anything I've stated.
Watch the movies. If you (not just you Jaden, this is the "ambiguous" you version) post anything that does not agree with me, you are incorrect.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No. What I said. To both you and AC."Bullet bending does nothing to improve Gibson's or Fox's chances: the bullet still ends up in the same location they are intending it, it just travels in an arch. Preston is dodging the bullet, not the trajectory. Where the bullet ends up is what he dodges. I'm not even sure why any of you think that's a legit point."
Preston dodges the end location, not the actual trajectory. The trajectory is the path.
More specifically, Preston is dodging the most highly probable trajectories that would intersect with his person. (If we want to get pedantic about it, sure, he's dodging the trajectory.) He just happens to have mastered it.
How is bending a bullet from point A to point B going to hit Preston any better? It's still the same location, when it crosses with Preston's person, as it is anywhere else. When do we ever see Preston hide behind a corner? Correct. When do we see him always go out in the open? Correct.
This is not debatable. This is the last time I will discuss this: It's point A to point B. No amount of fanboyism or anti-character arguments will ever ever ever change anything I've stated.
Watch the movies. If you (not just you Jaden, this is the "ambiguous" you version) post anything that does not agree with me, you are incorrect.
Yes, the style is designed to predict the path and THUS, where the bullet will be so that he can avoid being there.
As soon as the bullet comes from Wesley's gun, it's highly unlikely he will know the end result because he won't know the trajectory. They base trajectory upon how the person is firing the gun, the stance, the distance etc. Do they not?
So, he'd probably do that, correct? Wesley could be standing in a stance from which Preston predicts the bullet's destination based on the trajectory. If so, how does he figure into the fact that the man bends bullets and puts the bullets on trajectories he doesn't know are possible?
You assume that the bullet's destination is him; that the whole gun kata style is based on "Don't get shot because they're going to aim at you.". Obviously they don't want to get shot, and they reason they don't is because they know the path the bullet will take and get out of there.
Plus, both sides have knowledge of each other, according to RJ.
Wesley knows what gun kata is, Preston knows what bullet bending is. Who will benefit?
Wesley can work around gun kata. Preston can't work around not knowing where the bullet will end up. As soon as it leaves the gun, he isn't going to have any clue where it'll go.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, the style is designed to predict the path and THUS, where the bullet will be so that he can avoid being there.As soon as the bullet comes from Wesley's gun, it's highly unlikely he will know the end result because he won't know the trajectory. They base trajectory upon how the person is firing the gun, the stance, the distance etc. Do they not?
So, he'd probably do that, correct? Wesley could be standing in a stance from which Preston predicts the bullet's destination based on the trajectory. If so, how does he figure into the fact that the man bends bullets and puts the bullets on trajectories he doesn't know are possible?
You assume that the bullet's destination is him; that the whole gun kata style is based on "Don't get shot because they're going to aim at you.". Obviously they don't want to get shot, and they reason they don't is because they know the path the bullet will take and get out of there.
Plus, both sides have knowledge of each other, according to RJ.
Wesley knows what gun kata is, Preston knows what bullet bending is. Who will benefit?
Wesley can work around gun kata. Preston can't work around not knowing where the bullet will end up. As soon as it leaves the gun, he isn't going to have any clue where it'll go.
-AC
I didn't read your post, so if you agreed with me, I apologize in advance.
"Watch the movies. If you (not just you Jaden, this is the "ambiguous" you version) post anything that does not agree with me, you are incorrect. "
From what I am reading here, and recalling both flicks, I have come to realize a few things:
1. Bullet bending will only come into play if Preston is hiding behind a pillar, or around a corner, behind any object. From what I remember, the bullet benders did not alter the trajectory of their shots unless there was an obstacle between them and the target,
2. DDM is right, point A (the bullet leaving the gun) and point C (the bullets intended target) is all that matters. Point B (the flight path of the bullet) is of little if any importance. Preston positions himself in such a fashion as to avoid where the bullet will end up. As I said above, bullet bending will be an advantage only when Preston is using cover.
3. The bullet benders displayed little if any stealth. No way they sneak up on Preston or Zero.
4. Zero is basically Bullseye (Daredevil) with a gun. He could solo here with ease.
5. Already covered this, but no way no how do Wesley and Fox:
A: Block Prestons rapid fire.
B: Track Zero, deal with him, deal with Gun Kata AND point A.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
From what I am reading here, and recalling both flicks, I have come to realize a few things:1. Bullet bending will only come into play if Preston is hiding behind a pillar, or around a corner, behind any object. From what I remember, the bullet benders did not alter the trajectory of their shots unless there was an obstacle between them and the target
It doesn't matter if they bend out of necessity or preference, what matters is that they can and we have no reason to believe they'd not use it.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
2. DDM is right, point A (the bullet leaving the gun) and point C (the bullets intended target) is all that matters. Point B (the flight path of the bullet) is of little if any importance. Preston positions himself in such a fashion as to avoid where the bullet will end up. As I said above, bullet bending will be an advantage only when Preston is using cover.
What if where the bullet ends up isn't Preston? What if where the bullet ends up is where Wesley knows Preston will BE after judging its trajectory?
Wesley knows all about gun kata, remember.
Wesley could use Space Invaders style. Shoot where he'll be, not where he is.
What then? Dead Preston. Give him a sign that makes him think you're gonna give off one trajectory, then aim it elseways.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
3. The bullet benders displayed little if any stealth. No way they sneak up on Preston or Zero.4. Zero is basically Bullseye (Daredevil) with a gun. He could solo here with ease.
5. Already covered this, but no way no how do Wesley and Fox:
A: Block Prestons rapid fire.
B: Track Zero, deal with him, deal with Gun Kata AND point A.
As soon as DDM shows up, you "realise" the opposite to what you previously thought and come to an utterly swift conclusion that could have been solved by watching the movies. How predictable. That can't be it, though. It's never you caving in to his pressure.
So, let's get this straight.
You thought this would be a delicately balanced match, you put all the rules in...THEN, you "recalled" the movies and decided Zero would solo? It's that easy?
Can I make a suggestion for the billionth time? Ok.
Watch the movies first, evaluate the capabilities of both combatants or sides, THEN post.
If you're so sure Zero could solo, and it took you so little time to realise this, why couldn't you have saved us a thread?
This is what I mean about you and your threads. You don't think.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriIt doesn't matter if they bend out of necessity or preference, what matters is that they can and we have no reason to believe they'd not use it.
What if where the bullet ends up isn't Preston? What if where the bullet ends up is where Wesley knows Preston will BE after judging its trajectory?
Wesley knows all about gun kata, remember.
Wesley could use Space Invaders style. Shoot where he'll be, not where he is.
What then? Dead Preston. Give him a sign that makes him think you're gonna give off one trajectory, then aim it elseways.
As soon as DDM shows up, you "realise" the opposite to what you previously thought and come to an utterly swift conclusion that could have been solved by watching the movies. How predictable. That can't be it, though. It's never you caving in to his pressure.
So, let's get this straight.
You thought this would be a delicately balanced match, you put all the rules in...THEN, you "recalled" the movies and decided Zero would solo? It's that easy?
Can I make a suggestion for the billionth time? Ok.
Watch the movies first, evaluate the capabilities of both combatants or sides, THEN post.
If you're so sure Zero could solo, and it took you so little time to realise this, why couldn't you have saved us a thread?
This is what I mean about you and your threads. You don't think.
-AC [/B]
What good would bullet bending do when the bullet benders have clear line of sight to their target?
Wesley knows about Gun kata, he isn't trained in it. He knows what Preston can do, that doesn't mean he will be able to judge where Preston will be. Moot point, because as I stated earlier, rapid fire is something the bullet benders are never shown blocking with their bullets. Preston shoots at pretty much full automatic speed, his guns even have a full auto setting.
DDM showing up has nothing to do with it, you gotta get off this thing about he and I being an internet tag team. I was watching Zero on my laptop right before I posted that, and I realized "Shit, dude could solo the bullet benders." Simple as that.
Here's what happened:
I started the thread with the mindset that it is an even matchup.
The more I thought about it, afetr discussing it with others here, and watching Zero in action some more, I decided that he could solo IMO.
Problem?
Tell me something.....Fox and Gibson are sweeping the building looking for Preston and Zero. Zero emerges and starts flipping around like Yoda on steroids, firing as he goes, while Preston emerges firing full auto fire. You really think the bullet benders can deal with that? Please, quote a screen feat that proves they can. I recall none.
And for the record, I see no one else complaining about this thread. See, that's YOUR problem, you feel the need step in and flex your E pecs (Insert insane Joker laugh here), declare yourself forum lord, and dictate how you want things to be. Don't like my threads? Why post in them? Why the drama? If you don't like the way I do things here, two options:
Place me on ignore.
Report me.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No. What I said. To both you and AC."Bullet bending does nothing to improve Gibson's or Fox's chances: the bullet still ends up in the same location they are intending it, it just travels in an arch. Preston is dodging the bullet, not the trajectory. Where the bullet ends up is what he dodges. I'm not even sure why any of you think that's a legit point."
Preston dodges the end location, not the actual trajectory. The trajectory is the path.
More specifically, Preston is dodging the most highly probable trajectories that would intersect with his person. (If we want to get pedantic about it, sure, he's dodging the trajectory.) He just happens to have mastered it.
How is bending a bullet from point A to point B going to hit Preston any better? It's still the same location, when it crosses with Preston's person, as it is anywhere else. When do we ever see Preston hide behind a corner? Correct. When do we see him always go out in the open? Correct.
This is not debatable. This is the last time I will discuss this: It's point A to point B. No amount of fanboyism or anti-character arguments will ever ever ever change anything I've stated.
Watch the movies. If you (not just you Jaden, this is the "ambiguous" you version) post anything that does not agree with me, you are incorrect.
No...You're wrong...Preston moves based on what he believes will be the trajectory of the bullet...Which as far as he knows and is trained in is a straight line from the shooter to him...So he moves left or right out of the way....If the bullet comes from the side at a 90 degree angle to the shooter then he'd either move into it and get hit...or straight away from it...and get hit.
How given that we know that the fraternity members can either shoot dead straight or can bend bullets a full 360 degrees then the trajectories can literally come from any angle relative to the shooter. Preston is simply not trained to avoid that. Those trajectories don't fall within the statistical probabilities that Preston's Gun Kata was based upon. Therefor it is useless. Preston is not superhuman. He cannot see the bullet and react. He works merely on what he knows the physics of bullets to be in his training. Unfortunately he's never had to deal with the concept of bullets bending to hit their targets. He has no way to compensate.
Also on a side note. We talked about Zero's dead on sight with shots...Is anything he did impressive as shooting the wings off a fly without any training whatsoever?
Is anything Preston done even close to that level of skill?
Bullet bending will only come into play if Preston is hiding behind a pillar, or around a corner, behind any object. From what I remember, the bullet benders did not alter the trajectory of their shots unless there was an obstacle between them and the target,
Not true. Bullet bending can come into play is Wesley and Fox are behind cover. They can still hit their targets from that where as their targets can't hit them. Opposite applies to their targets. Preston can't hit Wesley if Preston is in cover...Wesley CAN hit him though.
4. Zero is basically Bullseye (Daredevil) with a gun. He could solo here with ease.
My point above...Did he do anything that even approaches shooting the wings off a fly while completely untrained?...No....Did his sniping shot come anywhere near to being as difficult as Wesley's?...No
What in the movies even gave you the idea that Zero is more skilled? That he shot Wolverine in the head from across the room or that he shot a cigar out of his mouth from 15 feet away?
His only other 2 impressive feats were his snipe shot (which he actually missed) which is nowhere near the level of skill shown by Wesley's....Or the raid on the militia in which he dropped a handful of them....Which was nowhere near as impressive as Wesley's destruction of the fraternity.
Wesley also did all that within an extremely short time frame of discovering his skills.
Remember...We go on what is ACTUALLY ON SCREEN....On that basis Preston is better than Zero...And Preston is nowhere near as good as Wesley.
Plain and simple.
Originally posted by jaden101
No...You're wrong...Preston moves based on what he believes will be the trajectory of the bullet...Which as far as he knows and is trained in is a straight line from the shooter to him...So he moves left or right out of the way....If the bullet comes from the side at a 90 degree angle to the shooter then he'd either move into it and get hit...or straight away from it...and get hit.How given that we know that the fraternity members can either shoot dead straight or can bend bullets a full 360 degrees then the trajectories can literally come from any angle relative to the shooter. Preston is simply not trained to avoid that. Those trajectories don't fall within the statistical probabilities that Preston's Gun Kata was based upon. Therefor it is useless. Preston is not superhuman. He cannot see the bullet and react. He works merely on what he knows the physics of bullets to be in his training. Unfortunately he's never had to deal with the concept of bullets bending to hit their targets. He has no way to compensate.
Also on a side note. We talked about Zero's dead on sight with shots...Is anything he did impressive as shooting the wings off a fly without any training whatsoever?
Is anything Preston done even close to that level of skill?
Not true. Bullet bending can come into play is Wesley and Fox are behind cover. They can still hit their targets from that where as their targets can't hit them. Opposite applies to their targets. Preston can't hit Wesley if Preston is in cover...Wesley CAN hit him though.
My point above...Did he do anything that even approaches shooting the wings off a fly while completely untrained?...No....Did his sniping shot come anywhere near to being as difficult as Wesley's?...No
What in the movies even gave you the idea that Zero is more skilled? That he shot Wolverine in the head from across the room or that he shot a cigar out of his mouth from 15 feet away?
His only other 2 impressive feats were his snipe shot (which he actually missed) which is nowhere near the level of skill shown by Wesley's....Or the raid on the militia in which he dropped a handful of them....Which was nowhere near as impressive as Wesley's destruction of the fraternity.
Wesley also did all that within an extremely short time frame of discovering his skills.
Remember...We go on what is ACTUALLY ON SCREEN....On that basis Preston is better than Zero...And Preston is nowhere near as good as Wesley.
Plain and simple.
I'm not wrong. You're wrong. You're probably the smartest one here (no doubt, actually), you know that the arc is so "straight" that it does nothing but make a difference of fractions of an inch. Still point A and point B. For all intents and purposes, it is a straight line to Preston's "movement" area.That small fractions of an inch difference due to the traveling in an arch, will do nothing to Preston's movements. Like I said earlier, he isn't hiding behind pillars or walls: he is out in the open.
There is also a major problem, here: why is Preston, who is definitely the faster gun slinger, being out matched by a very slowly arch bullet? You do realize that by the time Wesley or Fox even gets off one bullet in an arch (which Preston will easily dodge (if you want to replace that with trajectory just to feel better about it, go ahead)), Preston will have fired many bullets. Instead of bending bullets, Wesley would block 1 bullet (cause we never see anyone block more than one bullet at a time) and get raped with the remaining bullets. Even IF Wesley and Fox get off two curved bullets, the arch is relatively straight to Preston's movement's when he dodges bullets/trajectories. It's not as though Preston is moving about 5 feet in microseconds, to dodge the incoming fire (or trajectories, since you guys love pretending there's a major difference)).
Reality: Both Fox and Wesley end up swiss cheese before they can get off any bullets, 9 out of 10 times. The other 1 time, one of them gets off one "bent" bullet, and Preston dodges it anyway because the small inches Preston moves to avoid that bullet make the "curved" trajectory "straight" for all intents and purposes.
If you don't believe it, watch the scene again where Wesley shoots around that friggin' hottie to hit the target behind her: in the mere inches Preston would move, there's no difference for Preston.
Show me where John even gets scathed by ANY gunfire, and I'll believe that bullet bending will make a negligible difference.
Again, how does this even matter that John can take both Wes and Fox on at the same time when Agent 0 can definitely do it by himself? Put them both together and the "bullet benders" are *insert some absurd saying that is more extreme than "turned into swiss cheese"*
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
How is Preston nowhere as good as Wesley?
His shootout scenes were nowhere near as impressive as Wesley's attack on the fraternity. Simple as that really.
I do love how reading over the thread you said that the plaza is fully lit and powered...And then later stated that Preston can switch the lights off.
We can presume that Wesley is the most skilled of the fraternity given that he was supposed to be better than his father and his father was the best in the fraternity...His father outsmarted and killed Mr X with an utterly ridiculous shot (which Wesley's equalled if not outmatched at the end of the film)
Lets look at what Mr X was capable of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P8sOmSW1G0
Look at the distance he jumps...Look at the accuracy of the shots...Yet we know that Wesley is supposed to be better than him.
Utterly ridiculous to even compare Zero or Preston to that level of skill.