John Preston/Agent Zero versus Wesley Gibson/Fox...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Wesley isn't cannon fodder, nor is he fighting many men at close range.

1. I made a chicken sound. How did you take it seriously?

2. Well done.

3. Yeah? Like who? The person he fought in a swordfight or the meaningless cannon fodder with machine guns? The one person with massively extensive knowledge of it was "Father", and Preston couldn't hit him.[/b]

They were clerics, man, not cannon fodder.

[/b]

Yeah, what's to say he couldn't do it?

[/b]

Ok, based on what? What if it doesn't work?

It's not, it's just the only scenario you're accepting. Despite the fact that if that's your path, you should have known it from the start.

Same.

Go read the thread. There's no losses on my record in that thread. I know my shit.

Again with the quotes I've never said.

I am right if I'm right. I happen to be right almost all the time where facts are available because I don't enter threads without knowing my shit. If it's not objective, I can't be right or wrong.

The thing is, you just nailed it. When YOU are convinced you're wrong. I've seen people lob facts, logic and everything else at you for you to still shrug it off. The Sideswipe thread legendarily depicts this.

"I wasn't convinced.", exactly.

Read mine.

Oh, I agree. You just make these threads. You haven't got the foggiest idea how to react when in them.

Why is it always on others to convince you, especially when you're the only one who can convince yourself? Mostly.

That's what I don't get. You sit there with this matter-of-fact scenario and a notorious dislike for fact, then act like everyone else has to prove you wrong.

Why is it never to discuss who'd win? Come in with an established opinion, unlike a dog chasing cars, and THEN see if we can convince you. It doesn't help if we come to you with our views and you still haven't even decided what yours are yet.

You can't say you're like a dog chasing cars, unaware of what you'd do if you caught one, then act like you have an opinion already when you create this thread. The two don't work.

-AC

Point. But the fact remains that the bullet still leaves and arrives in the same place as if you or I fired the gun. The curving part will not affect Preston a bit.

Why does this idiotic point keep getting brought up as a defence for Preston?

Think about it. Preston believes and all his training is based on bullets travelling in rought a straight line from shooter to target...So he avoid the bullets by being either slightly to the left or the right of what he believes their known trajectories to be.

Now...If the bullet benders can change the trajectories of that bullet then it stands to reason that Preston's knowledge of how to avoid the bullets becomes totally irrelevant because it doesn't apply to bullets than can come from a 90 degree angle relative to the shooter. Preston would try and avoid the bullets as per his Gun Kata training and he was simply move in the same plain as the bullets trajectory.

It would be no different to you or I trying to avoid a bullet by walking straight towards it or away from it. We're still going to get shot.

And even if he knows about Gibson and Fox's ability to bend bullets there's nothing he can do about it because it was never part of his traning and the bullets can effectively come from any angle meaning they are not statistically predictable.

Yes, and those scenes are a classic example of quality over quantity.

So what was quality about them that makes them more impressive than what Gibson does?...I mean seriously? Because I saw nothing that came close to matching the skills shown in Wanted.

The bullet benders are hunting Preston and Zero, dude.

The easiest scenario would be that Gibson would snipe them from half the city away.

BTW, people, still waiting for an answer to how the bullet benders deal with Prestons full auto fire.

By "people" you mean you.

And yeah...Gibson and Fox stay behind and shoot from cover using bullet bending or that weird gun that Fox has than can look around corners. (never understood why she needed that if she could shoot around corners anyway)

Insert Wesley in Zero's place in the scene in Africa.

By his showing in the fraternity he'd fair just as well. In fact some of their moves were pretty much identical (the shooting with both hands from infront of themselves then sweeping around both sides killing enemies on either side without looking).

Difference is that Gibson killed a lot more and a lot better trained enemies than Zero did.

Where? Probably devising a trap for the bullet benders. Lie in wait, out of the bullet benders sight, then open up on them. I don;t see why this is such a foreign concept to you.

This is the scripting you were trying to avoid...Did they lay traps for opponents in their films?

At least when I used the example of Wesley sniping them from across the city that this was something he actually did in the film. (oddly enough...setting a trap).

Place Wesley in Preston's shoes. Does Wesley survive?

Would Wesley even stand still in the middle of the floor?...Of course not. And judging by the fact that the "rebels" apparently have worse aims than imperial stormtroopers then I'd say yes.

The 2nd scene was easily the gayest fight scene in Equilibrium. The only way Gibson would be in the same scenario is if he was a grammaton cleric because that'd be the only way the police/army team would surround him without reacting. So it's a rather silly point to make.

The 3rd scene...Yeah...Pretty similar...Except with Gibson's scene being far more impressive in that he continually stayed armed by using his enemies weapons that he snatches out of the air after killing his enemies and before the guns even hit the ground. He also kills more enemies. He also wouldn't be in that situation unless he was a Cleric...which would mean not only could he bend bullets but he'd be trained in Gun Kata... 😉

I went back on what I said earlier

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Ah well, I guess we're gonna agree to disagree on this.

Apologies.

I think we can all agree on one thing.....Fox is HOT.

OK, I'll add this, then agree to disagree haermm

Preston, unarmed, surrounded by armed Clerics:

YouTube video

Wesley Gibson, AMRED, surrounded by Bullet benders:

eYurmJY6xAQ&feature=related

I think it's self explainatory.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, I'll add this, then agree to disagree haermm

Preston, unarmed, surrounded by armed Clerics:

YouTube video

Wesley Gibson, AMRED, surrounded by Bullet benders:

eYurmJY6xAQ&feature=related

I think it's self explainatory.

Big difference.

Preston's guard's guns were not trained on him. Also, they all thought he was unarmed, and hence would not have been as alert if they knew he had weapons on him.

And he was armed, so I dunno what thats about.

That black guy is freaking hilarious. By his attitude, casualness and smirk, I would've thought he would've proven to be a challenge. Then he gets cut down in like a few moves hahaha

One more thing, then I'm done 🥷

Gibson's final fight scene:

YouTube video

I count 28 men he kills, then the butcher, that makes 29.

And the vid I just posted:

YouTube video

If my count is correct, Preston kills 43 Clerics, then the black Cleric, then the voice of father. 45 kills.

45......29.......yeah.....

Originally posted by Placidity
Big difference.

Preston's guard's guns were not trained on him. Also, they all thought he was unarmed, and hence would not have been as alert if they knew he had weapons on him.

And he was armed, so I dunno what thats about.

That black guy is freaking hilarious. By his attitude, casualness and smirk, I would've thought he would've proven to be a challenge. Then he gets cut down in like a few moves hahaha

I meant in the office, he was surrounded by sword wielding clerics, he was unarmed. And the guards in the hall, they saw his guns, they heard the shots, they were alert, he is just that damn good.

And LOL at that black guy, he got pwned hard haermm Not as hard as the repairman.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I went back on what I said earlier

Apologies.

I think we can all agree on one thing.....Fox is HOT.

In the words of Churchill the Dog...Oooohhhh YES.

As for the number of clerics...Well...Only the guys in the last room are clerics...The rest as just armed police.

There's 6 in the 1st room...13 in the corridor which then follows another 2 groups of 4 and 9 in the final room including the father....

so that's 36...only 9 of which are highly trained. The rest are about as effective as the idiot cops earlier in the movie that seemed to take about 10 minutes to figure out he was a sense offender AFTER he'd already told the other sense offenders to "GO".

I counted 40 for Wesley up until the point he reaches the stairs...And that was before the knife fight.

The manner in which he did it was also vastly more impressive. The majority of the shootout he did using not even semi auto pistols.

As for the video of the confrontation with the fraternity and Sloan...Way to prove a point. Fox's 1 shot in that scene means she could easily take out Zero or Preston from practically anywhere.

I counted the number of people being shot, I counted twice, your count is off. ✅

Yeah, and the fraternity assassins were totally expecting her to do that 🙄

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I counted the number of people being shot, I counted twice, your count is off. ✅

I've never been off about anything in this thread yet.

Yeah, and the fraternity assassins were totally expecting her to do that 🙄

It's got nothing to do with expectation...She can literally bend a bullet a full 360 degrees....Meaning she can hit Preston and Zero from anywhere. They can only hit her from line of sight...

DDM argued that the bullet bending only worked by changing the trajectory slightly (and used the example of Wesley bending his 1st shot around Fox) despite the fact that both Fox's example, Mr X's rooftop example and many others in the film show that bullets can be bent to a far greater degree (a full 360 degrees as it happens)

I love how many of my points from the last 2 days have been completely ignored though.

Like you arguing that Zero is the best shot despite me asking what he's done that matches shooting the wings off the flies.

Or for that matter shooting bullets of the air which you seem so obsessed with before.

You know, AC raised a good point earlier. They have knowledge of each other, right? Well, it wouldn't be that hard for Preston to react accordingly knowing that their bullets curve. After all, gun kata is based on bullet trajectory and the location of an opponent, right? If Preston knows they can curve their bullets, all he has to do is change where he locates himself. Makes sense to me.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You know, AC raised a good point earlier. They have knowledge of each other, right? Well, it wouldn't be that hard for Preston to react accordingly knowing that their bullets curve. After all, gun kata is based on bullet trajectory and the location of an opponent, right? If Preston knows they can curve their bullets, all he has to do is change where he locates himself. Makes sense to me.

You're not understanding the issue. Because Fox can curve a bullet entirely around to it's origin point then it can literally approach Preston from any direction. That goes against everything Gun Kata is based upon which is statistically predictable trajectories. If you can make a bullet approach from any angle then it makes them completely statistically unpredictable.

So again. It's not enough to know they can curve bullets. He would have to know exactly which direction the bullet's going to approach him from. He simply can't.

Besides...Gun Kata is based on standard shooting in a straight line from point A to point B.

Originally posted by jaden101
You're not understanding the issue. Because Fox can curve a bullet entirely around to it's origin point then it can literally approach Preston from any direction. That goes against everything Gun Kata is based upon which is statistically predictable trajectories. If you can make a bullet approach from any angle then it makes them completely statistically unpredictable.

So again. It's not enough to know they can curve bullets. He would have to know exactly which direction the bullet's going to approach him from. He simply can't.

Besides...Gun Kata is based on standard shooting in a straight line from point A to point B.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
But isn't point A and B the same, regardless of bullet curving or not?

Think about it...If I shoot at you and you are trained in Gun Kata...Your training means you know that you either need to move to the left or the right to be out of the bullet's trajectory.

Now regardless of where you and I are standing. If I can make that bullet approach you from any angle in a full 360 degrees then how would you know which way to move to avoid the trajectory?

The start point and end point of the bullet are irrelevant. It's angle which it approaches the target that matters.

Now if we have basic knowledge of each other then I would know that in order to avoid a typical shot then you would move either left or right because this is what you were trained to do. I could compensate for it. Even if you knew I could curve bullets you would have no idea which way to move to get out of the way and would be relying on blind luck and hope that the direction you chose to move wasn't on the same plane as the bullet's trajectory.

Preston moved alot more than left and right.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Preston moved alot more than left and right.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The point is he has absolutely no way to predict the trajectory of a curved shot that can come from any angle. He can't compensate for it. His Gun Kata wasn't designed with it in mind therefor his training in Gun Kata is useless. The entire thing was based on statistically predictable trajectories. If a bullet can come from a single point and hit it's target from any angle then it's 100% completely unpredictable.

Even if he did know about curved bullet trajectories, none of his moves that his Gun Kata training would take it into consideration therefor all his weird body contortions and odd firing stances would be completely pointless and useless.

I'm gonna make this REAL simple....This is Preston and Wesley facing off. Wesley at point A, Preston at point B:

Now, given Wesley's ability to curve bullets, the bullets from his guns are gonna take one of two flight paths. This one:

Or this one:

If Preston is still at point B, then yeah, he is killed. But you know as well as I do that Preston is never in the same place, he is always moving, always flipping around, always rolling or diving forwards and backwards.

With me so far?

K. Now, Preston is gonna be on the move, he isn't gonna stand there and just blast away. He is gonna go from point B to C:

From point C to D:

Point D to E:

Point E to F:

Point F to G:

Doing something like this:

And he will be blasting away the entire time with full auto fire. He is agile as hell, he'll not be at point B when the bullet arrives.

Tell me you're getting this.

Sorry I had to post the pics in more than one post, KMC wouldn't let me post them all at once.

Point is that Preston will be on the move at all times, you know, like he was in Equilibrium. He won't stand there at point B and allow Wesley to cap him. So the trajectories are all thrown off, so what? Preston knows this beforehand. He will know to be on the move at all times, and he is a deadeye shot. That, in addition to his auto fire, and Wesley is done.

I know, it's all bullshit, full of holes, blah blah yada yada, go ahead and ignore the obvious.