Originally posted by The Scenario
I just remembered, and found, this. I think it might be useful.
But it's still not enough to even beat Bayonetta.
Originally posted by The Scenario
I just remembered, and found, this. I think it might be useful.
But it's still not enough to even beat Bayonetta.
The same reason Wolverine will blindly jump into a fight. Strong, fast and with extreme regen with a arrogant/cocky nature. But he knows when to get more serious with a stronger enemy (Arkham/Vergil, Mundus and Savior) Would be worse in the Leviathan due to its size, especially as Dante's bite-sized here. If you can prove this without guess work ill take your word for it. Until you can it stands. Dodged Neros bullet but Ladys hit, the same as he'd let a mugger with a knife to stab him just because he can. Actually if two people randomly swing their swords at each other its unlikely that they will strike each others blades. Have to give you points for getting Thanos out of nowhere ;p
But again thats a weight/physics to soul. All im saying is that for a single kill move its never, besides an almost dead enemy, shown doing any single kill moves.
So if a character doesn't do their best feats all the time its inconsistent? Sonic gets hit by Knuckles even though his speed says he shouldn't. Durable Link got knocked out by a club. Kain got hit by the obvious Raziel and didnt uses hit 'superior strength' or any powers to evade. And Gray Fox was hurt by Solid Snakes kicks. Doesnt stray away from the facts shown that Sonic is fast, Link is durable, Kain can use those powers and Gray Fox is strong. If it was random he wouldnt of landed any hits. They were countered by an offensive swing, not that rare of a thing, and to note when Dante is impaled we can see that he's grabbing Yamato. So he wasnt that far off stopping the attack, plus Vergils the better swordsman. Offensive counters at those speeds... thats a pro move. And that doesnt discredit the kid to pro pitching in the sense of RT.
Originally posted by The Scenario
I just remembered, and found, this. I think it might be useful.
Only one or two look useful. Most there are just repeated.
Originally posted by BloodRain
The same reason Wolverine will blindly jump into a fight. Strong, fast and with extreme regen with a arrogant/cocky nature. But he knows when to get more serious with a stronger enemy (Arkham/Vergil, Mundus and Savior) Would be worse in the Leviathan due to its size, especially as Dante's bite-sized here. If you can prove this without guess work ill take your word for it. Until you can it stands. Dodged Neros bullet but Ladys hit, the same as he'd let a mugger with a knife to stab him just because he can. Actually if two people randomly swing their swords at each other its unlikely that they will strike each others blades. Have to give you points for getting Thanos out of nowhere ;pBut again thats a weight/physics to soul. All im saying is that for a single kill move its never, besides an almost dead enemy, shown doing any single kill moves.
So if a character doesn't do their best feats all the time its inconsistent? Sonic gets hit by Knuckles even though his speed says he shouldn't. Durable Link got knocked out by a club. Kain got hit by the obvious Raziel and didnt uses hit 'superior strength' or any powers to evade. And Gray Fox was hurt by Solid Snakes kicks. Doesnt stray away from the facts shown that Sonic is fast, Link is durable, Kain can use those powers and Gray Fox is strong. If it was random he wouldnt of landed any hits. They were countered by an offensive swing, not that rare of a thing, and to note when Dante is impaled we can see that he's grabbing Yamato. So he wasnt that far off stopping the attack, plus Vergils the better swordsman. Offensive counters at those speeds... thats a pro move. And that doesnt discredit the kid to pro pitching in the sense of RT.
Only one or two look useful. Most there are just repeated.
Dantes behaviour is nothing like Wolverines, nor is his regen. Define stronger enemy? those you mentioned are even easier to dodge because their pretty damn slow, Echidna is faster. It never stands if I can see a falt, we know for a fact he loses his functions, according to you were both guessing when but this only makes your argument flawed, I am just pointing this out to you. Their just swinging in a similiar arc in front of eachother, ofc their blades would strike.
Weight/physics? what are you talking about? but an opponents physical form has no bearing on their soul, just like how it does not have any bearing on their time resistance to QS.
Sure, Dante does a couple of feats, mostly just swinging without an accurate RT feat or serious and yet we have a ton of instances of him getting hit, hell by slow opponents no less, in the case of Vergil he gets completly defeated when Vergil slows down. With Kain its PIS though and has happened once, Dante as you pointed out "tried" to stop vergil, he was trying his hardest but he failed, the rest of your examples are toons or I dont know them in the case of Gray Fox. Sure hes the better swordsmen, hence why he won, its nothing to do with speed which is why Dantes speed is redundant in actual combat, its not helped him most of the time, hes been shot, stabbed, impaled etc too many times to consider your "random swings" calculation as a base speed for reacting to a Kain who is not even as predictable and far more random than those he has reacted against.
I don't think I ever got a good answer on the toonforce thing. I mean, there's evidence that Link can do things like this, but claiming toonforce suddenly makes Link unable to do them? I understand making ridiculous claims (I personally don't agree with the whip feat, for example), but there are other videos of clearly superhuman feats from Link.
I guess what I'm asking is: why the heck do we care? If can do these things, he should be allowed to do them, regardless of the physics involved. The fact is that a "toon" Link is able to do stuff like this, regardless of what anyone says. It would be false to say Link can't to it when he clearly can and has.
Originally posted by The Scenario
I don't think I ever got a good answer on the toonforce thing. I mean, there's evidence that Link can do things like this, but claiming toonforce suddenly makes Link unable to do them? I understand making ridiculous claims (I personally don't agree with the whip feat, for example), but there are other videos of clearly superhuman feats from Link.I guess what I'm asking is: why the heck do we care? If can do these things, he should be allowed to do them, regardless of the physics involved. The fact is that a "toon" Link is able to do stuff like this, regardless of what anyone says. It would be false to say Link can't to it when he clearly can and has.
No he can do them, its just not physically possible. Calculating math for a toon feat is redundant.
So....he can lift blocks that look exactly like that with the Golden gauntlets but it will not help him at all in any physical comparison against another character , or to give him more strength in his sword swings. Because these are logical deductions based on illogical showings.
Understand?
Same reason not same behaviour. Evaded Dagon who attacked him while being hidden, was fast and Dante was lying down. Times hes been serious was against Mundus where he made no cocky remarks, was focused and to how strong he is he was able to deflect Mundus' beam attack with his aura alone. You see fault because you want to see one. Yes we are both guessing but mine is backed by physics and anatomy, not just a guess.
The chances of a random swing hitting another is very unlikely, less likely in rapid succession. You're mistaking un-aimed swinging for offensive countering.
As in everyone knows that something of that weight and force would crush a human flat. Different forms of soul resistance can be; Strong soul, strong individual, slow drain etc. Only thing to against time powers is a specific time resistance/control. On different scales.
As said you need high RT to counter fast hits, and he was only defeated like that for not having his locked demon powers yet. That Sonic game had no 'toon' moments not does Twilight Princess. Gray Fox can lift up/hold back a 400 ton machine and Snakes kicks are only peak human.
I think we should compare the two. Ok; They were both 'stabbed', though Raz<Kain while Vergil>Dante. Both were slower then character usual (Raziel was more obvious) but Dante tried to block (not hardest^) and Kain just stood there. So we got Dante being made open and getting stabbed by a stronger opponent, then try to stop the blade. To Kain not made open, stabbed by a weaker foe, more obvious and did not try to stop. And note this is Kain at his strongest and Dante at he weakest. Speaks for itself. His speeds been shown three times, you cant just leave that out.
Feel like going over an old point. Dante is stronger, faster, better RT, better regen and better overall skills and range;
Regen- Kains best is healing from having his heart taken out and it took a few minutes. Not to forget that he 'had' to survive so is it really a regen feat? We all know about Dante.
RT- Kain has none above average that ive seen. A new one for Dante is that he dodged a bullet shot from Lady standing only <4m behind him.
Speed- Again haven't seen much above human levels. And again we know about Dante.
Strength- Kain hasnt shown his strength but assuming that hes stronger then Raziel (inconsistant feat), Kain can apparently push 80 tons. Convert that to a slash and its much less. Even if you dont want to accept the Savior feat Dante still- easily pushed a Pride (100kg?) across the 20m(?) room killing it with no effort. Smacked and shattered the top half of those <4m statues. Even Vergil tapped Dante with his hilt and sent him flying back.
To sum up, you can say how Dante's feats arnt to your standards but the fact is he doesnt need all his best feats to win.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Same reason not same behaviour. Evaded Dagon who attacked him while being hidden, was fast and Dante was lying down. Times hes been serious was against Mundus where he made no cocky remarks, was focused and to how strong he is he was able to deflect Mundus' beam attack with his aura alone. You see fault because you want to see one. Yes we are both guessing but mine is backed by physics and anatomy, not just a guess.
The chances of a random swing hitting another is very unlikely, less likely in rapid succession. You're mistaking un-aimed swinging for offensive countering.As in everyone knows that something of that weight and force would crush a human flat. Different forms of soul resistance can be; Strong soul, strong individual, slow drain etc. Only thing to against time powers is a specific time resistance/control. On different scales.
As said you need high RT to counter fast hits, and he was only defeated like that for not having his locked demon powers yet. That Sonic game had no 'toon' moments not does Twilight Princess. Gray Fox can lift up/hold back a 400 ton machine and Snakes kicks are only peak human.
I think we should compare the two. Ok; They were both 'stabbed', though Raz<Kain while Vergil>Dante. Both were slower then character usual (Raziel was more obvious) but Dante tried to block (not hardest^) and Kain just stood there. So we got Dante being made open and getting stabbed by a stronger opponent, then try to stop the blade. To Kain not made open, stabbed by a weaker foe, more obvious and did not try to stop. And note this is Kain at his strongest and Dante at he weakest. Speaks for itself. His speeds been shown three times, you cant just leave that out.Feel like going over an old point. Dante is stronger, faster, better RT, better regen and better overall skills and range;
Regen- Kains best is healing from having his heart taken out and it took a few minutes. Not to forget that he 'had' to survive so is it really a regen feat? We all know about Dante.
RT- Kain has none above average that ive seen. A new one for Dante is that he dodged a bullet shot from Lady standing only <4m behind him.
Speed- Again haven't seen much above human levels. And again we know about Dante.
Strength- Kain hasnt shown his strength but assuming that hes stronger then Raziel (inconsistant feat), Kain can apparently push 80 tons. Convert that to a slash and its much less. Even if you dont want to accept the Savior feat Dante still- easily pushed a Pride (100kg?) across the 20m(?) room killing it with no effort. Smacked and shattered the top half of those <4m statues. Even Vergil tapped Dante with his hilt and sent him flying back.
To sum up, you can say how Dante's feats arnt to your standards but the fact is he doesnt need all his best feats to win.
Which one was Dagon? is that the fat frog? But he was not fast against Mundus, he never had to be, being cocky does not automatically mean your going to move slower than you usually would especially when speed and skill are Dantes main strengths anyway. Thats a strange thing to say, "I want to see one", makes no sense....I can see Saviour freezing, I cannot see the whole of Saviour as it strikes Dante therefore I can neither assume that it stopped before its fist went all the way or whether it did go all the way and then stopped. We can all claim this, everyone has some basic knowledge of anatomy and physics, we all know how a punch would move but what we still cannot actually determine is how it works with Saviour, real people do not suddenly freeze up like that. Your counter to my argument is simply the opposite to it, not a real counter, we can both claim either offensive counter or un-aimed swinging but we know for a fact, speed is useless in this argument because a slow vergil easily impaled Dante. Its interesting also to note that pushing their swords using a lot of strength was enough to fling Dantes into the air, which is something their quick hits were lacking, chances are their quick hits are weak and without using serious effort unlike the slow attacks at the end.
That makes sense sure, but then to me it makes sense that if someone cannot protect their soul then their soul can be taken, same logical deduction. Explain, explain what a "strong" soul is? and how its ever helped anyone? or a strong individual? if I have a higher physical form than my friend, apprently my soul and spirit is stronger than his or something, is that your logic? 😕 Well thats the same with soul powers, you need a specific Soul resistance, being strong will not help you against either.
Thats not a fair claim, he did not have unlocked demon powers when he was swinging either yet thats vaslty faster than the slow stab Vergil does. Not sure about sonic but I thought twilight princess had a bouncing Goron in it, not exactly sure but TP is the more realistic of the link games.
Those comparisons are flawed, Raz<Kain by far because of his power set but strengthwise, only slightly on the other hand Vergil is shown to be more skilled than Dante, not necesserily "stronger". Kain did not stand there because he could not react to it though, he just decided through PIS to do nothing, Dante did not do PIS because he actually attempted to stop it, he just could not. Technically Kain "could have" stopped Raziel.
Same 🙁 although I disagree with stronger:
Regen- regenerating his chest was nothing about having to survive, the fact he can get up without his heart is but thats a show of endurance. Dantes regen is usually from sharp weapons that do not cover large areas.
RT-Kains attacks in generla need above average RT, his strikes alone move quicker than a normal human can even percieve, 0.2 per strike after the initial use of the dimension teleport that was apprently 0.8. Can you show me this feat from dodging lady plz?
Speed: Normal speed, no normal person can move 4/5 meters in about 0.2 seconds, thats a combo of human>reaction time by far. Not that a normal man could move that distance without moving his legs anyway but Kain is supernatural. We know that the strikes Kain is using in this fight will have his opponent slowed through his time powers and he can use the power of his teleport AND strike in about 0.8 seconds, each individual strike would be less than 0.2
Strength: not inconsistent, Raziels never overpowered Kain when hes trying....Kain never been beaten strengthwise tbh. but without the Saviour feat, those others tdo not compare to 80 tonnes, nor the multiplication that would happen on a swords edge at velocity.
He cannot win, Kain can take speed out of the equation with TK or time powers. He is more than fast enough to land a hit on a Dante through surprise since Dante is helpless against strong attacks, especially when surprised as shown againt Vergil, his speed/RT is not enough. We would be literally cutting the time Dante has to both notice, react and block Kains sword in half when we take into account the 0.2/0.8 times for Kains teleport slashes is taking into account all Kains movements, not just the slash itself which is all Dante will see (since they start a mile apart, if it was during a battle then he could still be surprised since afterall, hes not going to be paranoid and be watching Kain constantly, not that he could).
Yep, was hidden in shadows not that far from him. Doesnt make someone slower it effects their actions or lack of. Oh that means trying to find fault where there is none, proven here; '' I can neither assume that it stopped before its fist went all the way or whether it did go all the way and then stopped'' to you before stating ''I can see Saviour freezing'' so even thought you admit you dont know exactly what happened, you'll stand firm by your choice that it stopped before based on nothing. The Savior moves like a human would and that punch by punch logic was not full contact. Problem, the chances of two un-aimed swings hitting each other is low, in succession is much less. Im not countering your argument only stating the facts. Yes by fighting sense those faster hits were weaker, especially to the clash that heated up the blades. Those hits are weaker but as its at extreme speeds the force is increased. Ends up not that much weaker.
Unless there's some existing reason to say what happens for soul properties we'll have to go to what the game tells us, which is little. Thats from other games/animes/books/etc that a stronger individuals soul is stronger and many other examples and reasons. Theres not much you can get from that one cutscene. One target moves have different requirements to an aoe.
Dante in a similar situation with Nero avoided the stab. Not in that Sonic game, TP is imo the most realistic. Those Goron practically live in lava so it can have different effects on them like how rocks are pushed up by magma heat. /shrugs
You do realise that by 'correcting' me by saying Raz>>>>>Kain and Dante</=Vergil strengthens my argument right? So now, Dante got beat by an opponent stronger then him and Kain got beat by someone vastly weaker. C/PIS isnt really good reason for suffering a fatal strike.
That scar proves that it was because he had to survive. Dante had a 40cm gash down his torso, smallest tears around 3cm largest at 10cm... tada~
Black- edge. Red- Damage healed. Purple- Area removed. Dante had to heal more and he did it in a few seconds. Kain was passed out for an uncertain amount of time to heal.
Strikes at 0.2 means he needs just above average RT. Thats a normal persons RT with that can teleport. Peak human acceleration for that scene is 2/3m, Kains nearly double the acceleration, but not his running/slashing speed. Though that move was more like Dantes stinger then an actual speed running feat. wOZ6Wk-WDyc&feature 7:49 took me ages to remember where that scene was ¬_¬
Never been beaten strengthwise by strength-featless opponents :/ By what SP said, the weight lifted over head looks to be about half of what he pushed. 40 tons that the whole body can lift up. After converting that to a two handed slash and Dante3s punch damage to a two handed slash, Kain has 80ton slash, Dante3s 90. Evenish. Meh.
His TK is easily countered by Doppelgänger, time powers by time powers. And the only time that happened to the Dante in this fight (not DMC3) was against Nero holding Yamato with his Devil Bringer (stronger then base Dante(?)) and even then Dante wasnt helpless like he was when he was younger. Judging by Dantes fastest speeds, half aint that bad. Dont recall Kain ever teleporting far distances, only seen him do that 5m attack. How will he manage to go straight to Dante from a mile away? -If Bay's attacking Dante Kain can kill him on his blind spot- -If Kratos is attacking Kain Dante can kill him on his blind spot- Same for everyone really.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Yep, was hidden in shadows not that far from him. Doesnt make someone slower it effects their actions or lack of. Oh that means trying to find fault where there is none, proven here; '' I can neither assume that it stopped before its fist went all the way or whether it did go all the way and then stopped'' to you before stating ''I can see Saviour freezing'' so even thought you admit you dont know exactly what happened, you'll stand firm by your choice that it stopped before based on nothing. The Savior moves like a human would and that punch by punch logic was not full contact. Problem, the chances of two un-aimed swings hitting each other is low, in succession is much less. Im not countering your argument only stating the facts. Yes by fighting sense those faster hits were weaker, especially to the clash that heated up the blades. Those hits are weaker but as its at extreme speeds the force is increased. Ends up not that much weaker.Unless there's some existing reason to say what happens for soul properties we'll have to go to what the game tells us, which is little. Thats from other games/animes/books/etc that a stronger individuals soul is stronger and many other examples and reasons. Theres not much you can get from that one cutscene. One target moves have different requirements to an aoe.
Dante in a similar situation with Nero avoided the stab. Not in that Sonic game, TP is imo the most realistic. Those Goron practically live in lava so it can have different effects on them like how rocks are pushed up by magma heat. /shrugsYou do realise that by 'correcting' me by saying Raz>>>>>Kain and Dante</=Vergil strengthens my argument right? So now, Dante got beat by an opponent stronger then him and Kain got beat by someone vastly weaker. C/PIS isnt really good reason for suffering a fatal strike.
That scar proves that it was because he had to survive. Dante had a 40cm gash down his torso, smallest tears around 3cm largest at 10cm... tada~
Black- edge. Red- Damage healed. Purple- Area removed. Dante had to heal more and he did it in a few seconds. Kain was passed out for an uncertain amount of time to heal.Strikes at 0.2 means he needs just above average RT. Thats a normal persons RT with that can teleport. Peak human acceleration for that scene is 2/3m, Kains nearly double the acceleration, but not his running/slashing speed. Though that move was more like Dantes stinger then an actual speed running feat. wOZ6Wk-WDyc&feature 7:49 took me ages to remember where that scene was ¬_¬
Never been beaten strengthwise by strength-featless opponents :/ By what SP said, the weight lifted over head looks to be about half of what he pushed. 40 tons that the whole body can lift up. After converting that to a two handed slash and Dante3s punch damage to a two handed slash, Kain has 80ton slash, Dante3s 90. Evenish. Meh.
His TK is easily countered by Doppelgänger, time powers by time powers. And the only time that happened to the Dante in this fight (not DMC3) was against Nero holding Yamato with his Devil Bringer (stronger then base Dante(?)) and even then Dante wasnt helpless like he was when he was younger. Judging by Dantes fastest speeds, half aint that bad. Dont recall Kain ever teleporting far distances, only seen him do that 5m attack. How will he manage to go straight to Dante from a mile away? -If Bay's attacking Dante Kain can kill him on his blind spot- -If Kratos is attacking Kain Dante can kill him on his blind spot- Same for everyone really.
But theres no proof he chose not to react, hes cocky to Nero yet still faster, not fast enough it seems but still quicker. Your the one assuming theres no fault, I am pointing out the fact your assuming, I do not think its fact it froze before it hit dante, thats my opinion of what it did but we know it froze, we just dont know for a fact when. Low? based on what? their close range and their moving at incredible speeds so the chances of the two hitting raise considerably.....common sense really. Seems the increased force was hardly anything, the blades were not even heated up and neither disarmed the other yet one strong push and Dantes blade is in the air.
Well we know what a soul is, we can deduce that it makes no difference whether or not your strong or weak on how resistant you are to spiritual attacks, thats like saying a man whos physically fit can somehow resist being polymorphed or cursed by a mage (Warcraft) or that QS could not harm a strong person . What we know is that this is not the case to Dante, hes got no soul feats. What so if the spell was an AOE soul attack you wouldnt argue against it taking souls from strong entities? your logic makes no sense here....
Not really, Dante got beaten by someone more skilled but your trying to compare speed at stopping an opponent, I am just trying to point out Dante can easily be stopped by a slow attack and that he infact has less chance of stopping one because he could not. Its one of the only reasons C/PIS is brought up......characters vastly more powerful, and easily quick enough to stop an attack not doing anything.
What? he had a scar so it proves he had to survive? makes no sense. Also thats wrong, the blade of Dantes sword did not cover that much of his body and it only made the cut the size of the blade, Kain healed a hole and the flesh/muscle etc around it completly, Dante a small slice.
But 0.2 is not the strike, thats how much time Kain takes to appear, start swinging and strike. And thats perception based on predictable cirumstances, this is not one of those cases.
Fair enough, he can dodge bullets from behind him although he reacted to the bullet, not lady. Kains would not be as loud.
Not the point is it, the point is their not inconsistent, they cant be because they have never shown less strength than they should be showing or more than they usually show. Your numbers seem to be based on your calculation on durability, the amount of tonnes on the edge of a blade based on SP 1/144th equation is what gives you the amount of PSI on the edge of a sword.
Even based on the assumption Doppelganger is a perfect clone of Dante and has all Dantes physical feats, it would not stop Kain from killing the original Dante with another teleport. Weve not "seen" him teleport a mile (because you cant see a mile) but he teleports out of his throne room and the next time you see him is either at the , also Kain travels through a dimentional teleport, space has no meaning when your not traveling space like you are in movement. Not the same for everyone, Kain would never have a blindspot because Dante is the only guy who can keep up with his teleportation and theres no one who can find a blind spot on a guy who teleports, Kain would be a fool to fight physically when he has teleportation wheras Bayonetta can actually fight Dante fairly. Kratos would not, neither woud anyone apart from Dante.
Turned his back on Ekidna for one. No i know the what the real faults are, when it stopped cant be said for certain but we know these few things; There was no sign of stopping before, no decrease of speed, the punch was in a full contact pose. May not be definate but its leaning alot more towards it stopping after. Low based on the chances of one random swing hitting another random swing one after another. Increasing the speed only raises the numbers, chances stay the same, 'that' is common sense. They wernt connected long enough to make the any heat or signs. Imo that last attack was near Dantes peak strength, Vergil being stronger made it obvious that Dante was somehow going to give first. Ie in the form of his sword being knocked away.
Oh we can deduce that? From what? Spiritually speaking(real) mind, body and soul are all connected. In different game/etc seem to follow suit. LoK doesnt say anything to say its not the same as them. 'Soul attack' aoe attacks depend on the opponent, its still a soul based attack. Youre claiming time powers work in the same way as draining souls. Not the best judge on whos logic is right or wrong.
Yes really. Never referenced the </> part to speed, but how one person was 'easily' killed by a stronger foe to another who was 'easily' killed by a someone weaker ''by far''. Like how Kain can be stabbed by a slow and obvious move. Then again when has Kain ever been in a similar situation?
That and Kain hasnt shown regen, so it points to what i said about him having to survive. -,- i find it strange that i can remember so much LoK details but you fail to remember the ones ive said recently. Dante stood up through the whole sword, guard included. That mean the 10cm thick dragon guard tore through his body and made ^. Saw in another thread that you said yourself that it took hours for Kain.
Teleport feat, not a RT one. 'least not one above human potential.
Reacted to bullet shot 4m away, only giving him 5 milliseconds to evade. (800m/s over 4m) More then enough time.
No it is the point, what if those opponents were only 10 tonners at best? Unless they have anything that says that theyre strong, its a featless clam. Nothing to do with durability there at all. Thats the psi of their swing strength, add blade psi if you want the figures will show the same thing.
Didnt say perfect clone :/ oh he tries to teleport Dante can block on reappearance. Remember him going long distances by bats not teleport. (unfinished sentence? .__.) Even dimensional teleports, unless stated, have there limits. 'cept for Ganons TK. And if for instance Dante (or Ganon) see him appearing/about to strike someone they can act then. To a Kains teleporting Ganons TK is very effective.