Originally posted by BloodRain
Tell you what? Im the one asking. So Kain couldnt take his strength? Dark gifts are the evolved powers, fact is demons (dmc) are nothing like LoZ entities. Those powers are only done by demons.Im not relying on the graphics im relying on what the cutscene shows us. Told you the DMC3 intro cutscene, those strikes took <milliseconds. Even if he could see it coming, reacting to it at that speed is better then a bullet timer.
Ok then show me the Reaver taking a soul in one hit and not on someone weakened.
I dont recall seeing bosses after boss fights to have marks on them, so he was struck by the Reaver without his soul being taken away... huh. Now if Sarafan was stuck with the Reaver and survived until the last hit, what does this say for its capabilities? Tut tut you just had to turn cocky :/Damn youre getting defensive 😬 cant believe my posts got under your skin. QS is a time power, not on the same level as a strike.
Or we can look at it this way; Dante is faster, stronger, better reactions and time powers. He can just do a lil' Dance Macabre and end Kain. One stab and he's out, he hasnt the regen feats to survive or the reactions to defend.
Agree with the height then.. You'll have to take the whole 'finishing off the rest of Team 1' up with the official lollovelinkclub 😛
The dark gift is a term used for any vampire power, when Kain gains the Hyldens powers their called Dark gifts for Kain, it would be the same if Kain took Dantes powers. The power Kain gets is from those characters, its hard to tell if he got the strength or not in canon, he got the speed from Sebastion and the jumping supernatural from Fasutus but the strength, not sure since he has shown vastly superior strength feats to Magnus since then. Dark gifts being evolved is relevant why? Vampires did indeed physically evolve over time to gain their powers (hyldens dont btw), this does not make a difference however for dante. So? before Kain gains each respective power, each character is the only one who can use said power, nobody else was using Tk before Kain stole it from the Seer for example. (although old vampires may also have it).
The cutscene also shows us the coat barely moving and Dantes hair not at all, you cant call "graphic limitation" for one thing and yet not for another. Seeing something coming is far easier to block however, for example object size is important too, Dante is blocking/fighting against Vergils sword.
Thats a negative, "not on someone weakened", this is not my argument. My base argument is that the Soul reaver takes souls, you need to show me where its canonically shown not to be able to take stronger forces to make your argument positive before I try and rebuke something I dont need to. Wut? I said Sarafan lord had no marks on him, therefore he may not have been struck before the final strike which did take him.
Because their tedius to reply to when your saying the same things, QS is a power, so is soul stealing. The fact its a strike is nothing to do with it the sword is eating a soul, QS slows time but for rocks only according to you. Soul reavers powers are sou powers, not just strikes.....your logic seems fairly weak, because your trying to argue how a power of Kains is inneffective against stronger foes yet apprently Dantes powers are not...
That would ignore the fact Kain has teleported from nowhere in mid strike, Dante could do nothing to this since he would not even see it coming....your acting as if Kains not going to do anything or that Kains going to come at Dante on foot....and no, Dante would have to cut Kain to piecies to stop him, Kain could just mist anyway if he needed to. Kain could just lift Dante up by the head with Tk and stick him somewhere until hes done with the rest of Team 1. He has a lot of options with dealing with Dantes "speed", also show us the strength feat of Dante.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is why Link can stand back and fire magic arrows into the fray, without being worried that someone will teleport to him. 131
Yes right, this is really going to help if they teleport behind him and kill him quicker than he can react or if Bayonetta stops/slows time and just takes her immaterial ass up to him casually and takes his head off.
Says The Seer has Dark gifts too. The evolved is relevant as these Dark gifts are all programmed into vamps but only a few get unlocked, these being the evolved ones ie all vamps having TK but Seers was more evolved.
Im gonna lay it down like this; two cutscenes show Dante moving at speeds so fast everything around him (them) stop. Yes Vergils sword that can move faster then Kain could ever move in his wildest dreams. Countering <milliseconds fast hits in succession, before he unlocked his demon powers and in his weakest form. (DMC3)
Always throwing useless terms around. So what if it is? All that means is that you wont. Then again you've shown the proof needed; Sarafan had to be weakened for the Reaver to have effect. You dont need to 'rubuke' anything, already have the answer. So Sarafan just collapsed on his own accord?
What and you dont do the same? ^^ Yes according to me the natural enemy of Dante, rocks, are the only thing the QS effects *sigh* QS = area effect move, Reaver = single enemy. The latter depending on the foe. Havnt the right to bash my logic if yours tells you that the a cutscene lied.
Hard to become mist if your already dead. Hes faced Vergil who can teleport, so Dante can fight against it. From what Regen feats can Kain survive more then one fatal hit? Kain cant do much else if he's to TK hold Dante, and can only hold one at a time. DoppelgängerDante can just go up to Kain and kill him for Dante. Youve seen the Saviour scene for one. When has he fought someone at devil-boys speed? Besides, Dante has more options to take down Kain.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Says The Seer has Dark gifts too. The evolved is relevant as these Dark gifts are all programmed into vamps but only a few get unlocked, these being the evolved ones ie all vamps having TK but Seers was more evolved.Im gonna lay it down like this; two cutscenes show Dante moving at speeds so fast everything around him (them) stop. Yes Vergils sword that can move faster then Kain could ever move in his wildest dreams. Countering <milliseconds fast hits in succession, before he unlocked his demon powers and in his weakest form. (DMC3)
Always throwing useless terms around. So what if it is? All that means is that you wont. Then again you've shown the proof needed; Sarafan had to be weakened for the Reaver to have effect. You dont need to 'rubuke' anything, already have the answer. So Sarafan just collapsed on his own accord?
What and you dont do the same? ^^ Yes according to me the natural enemy of Dante, rocks, are the only thing the QS effects *sigh* QS = area effect move, Reaver = single enemy. The latter depending on the foe. Havnt the right to bash my logic if yours tells you that the a cutscene lied.
Hard to become mist if your already dead. Hes faced Vergil who can teleport, so Dante can fight against it. From what Regen feats can Kain survive more then one fatal hit? Kain cant do much else if he's to TK hold Dante, and can only hold one at a time. DoppelgängerDante can just go up to Kain and kill him for Dante. Youve seen the Saviour scene for one. When has he fought someone at devil-boys speed? Besides, Dante has more options to take down Kain.
Then your own source contradicts itself because a min ago you said only vampires have dark gfits, and proves that Dark gifts are simply the name given to any power by Vampires, not an actual "power source". Again, theres no proof that all vamps have TK, and Seer is not a vamp, your not getting this are you?
According to your perceptions, imo only one of those is definite and thats the DMC 3 one. Vergils sword being right in front of Dante, obvious and large to counter, instead of instantly appearing behind Dante who would never react in his wildest dreams.
In gameplay, you dont get the option to impale him before then.
Thats because I am having to, your using gameplay mechanics for evidence, thrown out logic and will not even reply when I ask you to explain your logic, makes this argument moot if your going to use uncanon elements and no logic just because they help you. QS is AoE therefore its protected from your poor logic? 🙄 so your bias against the reaver is not against its powers but because its a stab? your making less sense.....
dead? your talking as if Kains physical body is his life force nad not his soul like all vampires is. Err? no....Vergils never done what Kains going to do in this thread. The one where his heart is ripped out and he regens the hole, also define fatal?. Not heard of TK shackles no? I never said he faced someone as fast as Dante, I just said he has many options with dealing with it, TK, teleportation, AOE spells and time powers being a few. I have seen the Saviour strike Dante, thats it.....
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
GJ, her time powers are part of a counter attack, mortal draw, GG.
Seems not, against fortudo she used it without being attacked. And mortal draw does not move at bullet speed, its a slow slash thats fast for link and his slow enemies, not bullet timers.
Well it is wiki. Doesnt matter as he wont get the chance.
Vergils slashes were a thousand times faster then any hit Kain can pull off. Even if it was in front of him youd need better skills to block that then Kain.
Well there goes all the solid proof.
Kains teleport/mist = feats taken from gameplay. If you cant understand something as simple as time powers need a completely different resistance to stabbing that thats your fault -,- If you believe so strongly that your logic isnt full of holes the youd of shown something to help your argument. So far everything youve posted backs 'me' up.
Kain was going to die from Raziel if he wasnt the scion of balance. He does almost the same teleport move Kain does in his fight. He regen because hes that balance and cant die, and took and unknown amount of time for that to heal. It comes from his shadow, can he TK shadows? Unless Dante moves too fast for Kain to keep up, he has normal RT. Thats enough then, Kain can lift in theory max 50tons over his head, Dante took well.... more then 50tons being thrown at him at fast speeds. Also Dante3 has shattered rock will a tap of his fist.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Well it is wiki. Doesnt matter as he wont get the chance.Vergils slashes were a thousand times faster then any hit Kain can pull off. Even if it was in front of him youd need better skills to block that then Kain.
Well there goes all the solid proof.
Kains teleport/mist = feats taken from gameplay. If you cant understand something as simple as time powers need a completely different resistance to stabbing that thats your fault -,- If you believe so strongly that your logic isnt full of holes the youd of shown something to help your argument. So far everything youve posted backs 'me' up.
Kain was going to die from Raziel if he wasnt the scion of balance. He does almost the same teleport move Kain does in his fight. He regen because hes that balance and cant die, and took and unknown amount of time for that to heal. It comes from his shadow, can he TK shadows? Unless Dante moves too fast for Kain to keep up, he has normal RT. Thats enough then, Kain can lift in theory max 50tons over his head, Dante took well.... more then 50tons being thrown at him at fast speeds. Also Dante3 has shattered rock will a tap of his fist.
Tiz will, Dante is not all knowing, hes just quick.
not quite, 400 times quicker assuming he did make slashes in milliseconds.
Well for your argument, i still have the canon outline of what the sword does.
Their powers ,static, feats taken from gameplay is not the same as gameplay mechanics. You cant understand how soul powers also need a different type of resistance 🙄 bias. It does not back "you" up, it just so happens to show the opponents not stabbed yet by the reaver, when they do, their dead....
Only because the heart of Darkness is the only reason his body had a connection to his soul. Show me Vergil in a cutscene appearing while attacking dante in a teleport?
unkown? not quite, we have some grasp on how long it took. Can shadows harm people? no....
Thats not a strength feat, thats a durability feat and as you pointed out Kain needs only 80 PIS to slice through, and Kain would have 100 tonnes>>coming at Dante in strength, as hes not lifting anything. Chances are Dante cannot cut Kain, kain can take PSI from Raziel without damage.
Quicker than Kain can act.
Kain fastest: 0.8.... 0.4secs. Dante's shown: 5 wide slashes in 0.002secs. 1000x faster, DMC3 they were going faster then this.
Thats the same as saying Wolverines adamantium claws can cut through anything. (it can but it depends on the density and force used) Statements show potential, but need to be confirmed.
You said it yourself, both need a different type of resistance ;p cant be compared in the same way. Stabbed after a battle.
So he's shown other regen feats? Gameplay, never seen Kain do that move in a cutscene. Not really, without having an idea of how fast Kains regen is you cant say how long it was. In lots of media yeah, and it can turn solid to attack.
Its actually both. Durability is when Beowulf punched Dante into a mini crater, if Dante had not supported the Saviors punch and held it off from going the way of the Beowulf punch. You forget that his slashes arnt 100tons, his whole body moves 100tons, his arms by themself are not at that strength. Average punch strength is about 35% of the average lift. Strength in a slashing movement is much closer to 20% per arm. Full strength slash with two hands is 40%. 40ton.... why not, 50ton slash at most with a full powered swing. Two problems; 1- From what SP said Raz can lift 45 over his head, Kain 50. So those ^ will be halved. 2- Lowered with the new heights takes off 30%. Both these together reduce 40/50 tons by... 65% to get his slash strength.
Sorry for the length of that. Dante is stronger then Raziel, even without the 65% reduction for striking strength.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Quicker than Kain can act.Kain fastest: 0.8.... 0.4secs. Dante's shown: 5 wide slashes in 0.002secs. 1000x faster, DMC3 they were going faster then this.
Thats the same as saying Wolverines adamantium claws can cut through anything. (it can but it depends on the density and force used) Statements show potential, but need to be confirmed.
You said it yourself, both need a different type of resistance ;p cant be compared in the same way. Stabbed after a battle.
So he's shown other regen feats? Gameplay, never seen Kain do that move in a cutscene. Not really, without having an idea of how fast Kains regen is you cant say how long it was. In lots of media yeah, and it can turn solid to attack.
Its actually both. Durability is when Beowulf punched Dante into a mini crater, if Dante had not supported the Saviors punch and held it off from going the way of the Beowulf punch. You forget that his slashes arnt 100tons, his whole body moves 100tons, his arms by themself are not at that strength. Average punch strength is about 35% of the average lift. Strength in a slashing movement is much closer to 20% per arm. Full strength slash with two hands is 40%. 40ton.... why not, 50ton slash at most with a full powered swing. Two problems; 1- From what SP said Raz can lift 45 over his head, Kain 50. So those ^ will be halved. 2- Lowered with the new heights takes off 30%. Both these together reduce 40/50 tons by... 65% to get his slash strength.
Sorry for the length of that. Dante is stronger then Raziel, even without the 65% reduction for striking strength.
Not really, this fight is based over some distance. Kain can pick where he fights from across the whole battlefield, and can be at almost any point with teleportation.
Thats not reaction, their just swinging their swords back and forth to block predictable attacks. Also I still disagree, if were going to assume the graphics in your first vid are not falty then he is not moving that fast, the magic of Alastor combining with him seems to have slowed the area around him down.
No, Wolverines claws can cut through anything apart from things that have feats to say otherwise. Also thats a physical blow, not a spiritual one.
But they can be compared to your argument, that states just because soul powers have not canonically defeated a "strong" opponent, this can also correlate to all of Dantes powers, including QS, imo this is daft logic and is based on gameplay anyway.
Dont ignore me please, "gameplay mechanics" different to "gameplay" I dont think we see half of Dantes styles in a cutscene either. You can because Kain ended up in a dimension whos inhabitants not only want him dead because they hold him responsible for his ansestors imprisoning them there but also because he is the only one who is destined to stop them from returning , you would need a pretty big assumption to think he was there for longer than a few minutes, far larger than the assumption that he was only there for a few minutes. Can you prove it "turns" solid to attack?
Dante did not have to hold it off, remember Saviour froze solid before it went all the way. Maybe not his slashes, his impalements on the other hand would be like what he did to moebius. Dante is stronger based on? hes not actually lifted anything of great weight, hes prob broken a few objects in his time. Even with his rage and devil power going through his body after the Vergil fight, him punching that statuette only shattered its smaller/lighter head, not the body from what I recall.
Tk shackles Dantes head up someone on the battlefield, and finishes him off later (or first if he wants to take his soul/blood for the powers he would gain from it). Just one tactic Dante could never stop or forsee.
He has to know where he's teleporting to, if a target moves too fast for him how can he teleport to where it is and not where it was?
If you get punched a person with a faster RT will react and block/counter faster the someone with a slower RT. When has this magic ever done this in all of DMC?
Harder objects take a little more force to cut then weaker things. 'The ability to slice completely through a substance with an Adamantium blade depends upon the amount of force being exerted and the density of the material in question.' -Wikia. Just a comparison.
QS doesnt target anything so resistance and the like wont have an effect. Canon wise its only been shown to kill a weakened foe.
You do know that his 4 primary styles are all him and only separate to add variety. Doppelgänger, QS and Dark slayer all have cutscenes. You dont find it a little coincidental that as soon as Mr overhead-voice stops talking they appear? More like they were summoned by their person. Why this makes sense; if they wernt summoned they would of killed Kain while he was unconscious and not appear right after he wakes up. Well its his shadow, then becomes solid when he does his stuff.
Thats what you say. Me having better understanding physics and martial-arts of us two its obvious that the punch made full contact before it stopped. Without getting into specifics the arm gestures used in a stab and a slash wont have much of a difference in strength, only main is if he used on or two hands. The Saviors fist alone is heavier then Raz's blocks and Dante pushed the whole thing back and supported some of the weight. Also Nero, whose DB is strong enough to move the Savior in one grip, Dante held onto his arm with one hand while Nero was struggling to break free and when he was smashed the wall behind them.
No rage just testing his new strength, rage was gone by then. And it was a hard tap not a punch.
Doppelgänger can just go and kill Kain. Same as how Dante can just freeze him in a block of ice.
Originally posted by BloodRain
He has to know where he's teleporting to, if a target moves too fast for him how can he teleport to where it is and not where it was?If you get punched a person with a faster RT will react and block/counter faster the someone with a slower RT. When has this magic ever done this in all of DMC?
Harder objects take a little more force to cut then weaker things. 'The ability to slice completely through a substance with an Adamantium blade depends upon the amount of force being exerted and the density of the material in question.' -Wikia. Just a comparison.
QS doesnt target anything so resistance and the like wont have an effect. Canon wise its only been shown to kill a weakened foe.
You do know that his 4 primary styles are all him and only separate to add variety. Doppelgänger, QS and Dark slayer all have cutscenes. You dont find it a little coincidental that as soon as Mr overhead-voice stops talking they appear? More like they were summoned by their person. Why this makes sense; if they wernt summoned they would of killed Kain while he was unconscious and not appear right after he wakes up. Well its his shadow, then becomes solid when he does his stuff.
Thats what you say. Me having better understanding physics and martial-arts of us two its obvious that the punch made full contact before it stopped. Without getting into specifics the arm gestures used in a stab and a slash wont have much of a difference in strength, only main is if he used on or two hands. The Saviors fist alone is heavier then Raz's blocks and Dante pushed the whole thing back and supported some of the weight. Also Nero, whose DB is strong enough to move the Savior in one grip, Dante held onto his arm with one hand while Nero was struggling to break free and when he was smashed the wall behind them.
No rage just testing his new strength, rage was gone by then. And it was a hard tap not a punch.Doppelgänger can just go and kill Kain. Same as how Dante can just freeze him in a block of ice.
Dante does not move too fast to be predicted or seen.....
Yes so? your point being? if you had a huge sword and someone with a tiny dagger who was far faster was swinging at you, you could also fairly easily block it. Point being is that Vergil and Dante were swinging at the same level, and doing predictable attacks, they hardly varied in their fight.
Just now....you seem to be hinting to consistency yet you forget that Dante moving at 0.00 millisecond speeds is not consistent either, for example hes been grabbed, hit, shot etc by far slower foes. I think even Saviour grabbed him (not sure if he tried and failed or if he succeeded) when he did not expect it and Saviour was quite slow. He also got beaten down and smacked around by Nero, clearly he was not using his full strength in the whole fight but he was not fast enough to change his tactics, he even stated "I may have underestimated you".
QS effects the area around it, canonwise its only effected rocks and the power of QS is relevant in discussions just like Soul powers are, thing is the soul powers of the reaver are not targeting anything physical so your logic (or lack of) is flawed when assuming (based on gameplay no less) that the physical state of an opponent is relevent. Canonwise its shown to kill weakened foes, sure, this does not really make a case for it not being equelly effective agaist stronger ones, hence my previous logic argument against your physical limitations theory based on gameplay mechanics.
We know that but according to your logic this has not been shown in a cutscene therefore it does not exist...thats just the thing, your assumimg the Hylden (the one speaking) is apprently going to wait what? more than a few minutes to attempt to destroy his ancient enemy who is the only one capable of keeping him and his entire race imprisoned? can you show me this? it becoming solid when it wants to? for all you know the magic of Doppleganger could make a physical shadowlike entity....
The saviours arm was frozen, it had no resistance against Dante yet gravity had no effect on it either, Dante was pushing back something that had no weight or force on him. Show me this thing with Dante holding Nero please.
Yes, a block of ice...let me guess the very short range Cerberus? your not thinking your tactics through....and Doppleganger has not got Dantes original feats, when is it implied its a perfect copy of him and his intellect? I have not personally used it often, I never liked the abiltiy but I got the idea it did not do all the powers you do independantly or against independant targets?
Faster then Kain can act.
Actually taking into consideration a large sword being heavier, and this person being up close and faster, itll be harder to block. Bullets are predictable, RT to evade is still high. The faster something is the higher the RT has to be to evade.
Two instances are consistent. Most of the time is due to his attitude, eg ekidna tries to 'eat' him and he gets caught, dagon does the same but faster, hidden and with Dante laying down and he evades. Most of the time he's just acting cocky. No Dante was basically in its hand (hanging by his sword) but when he tried to close in on him he appeared on-top. If someone like Dante thinks someones weak he wont go all out. He said that when the fight ended.
May as well jump off the QS case as you're not getting anywhere with it. All we know is that its never been use on a strong foe with one hit.
Dash, flipper and air trick = Trickster. Twosome time and charged shot = Gunslinger. Aerial rave, sword pierce and the end of dance macabre = Sword master = 6/7 styles officially shown. Be stupid to say Royal guard does not exist after this. Believing in what the cutscene shows us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmBE_bGmKFM when it goes into and out of Dantes its in the form of shadows. Doppelgänger as shown in the start can just appear out of the floor.
I already made a solid claim stating how it was a full contact hit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxoMyo3Oou0&feature=related 0:21.
Mid range, either a 4m long ice move or a close range stronger version, not like getting close to Kain is a real problem. Doppelgänger is the "Style that allows the player to control shadows, effectively creating copies of himself to assist in battle." - Style file.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Faster then Kain can act.Actually taking into consideration a large sword being heavier, and this person being up close and faster, itll be harder to block. Bullets are predictable, RT to evade is still high. The faster something is the higher the RT has to be to evade.
Two instances are consistent. Most of the time is due to his attitude, eg ekidna tries to 'eat' him and he gets caught, dagon does the same but faster, hidden and with Dante laying down and he evades. Most of the time he's just acting cocky. No Dante was basically in its hand (hanging by his sword) but when he tried to close in on him he appeared on-top. If someone like Dante thinks someones weak he wont go all out. He said that when the fight ended.
May as well jump off the QS case as you're not getting anywhere with it. All we know is that its never been use on a strong foe with one hit.
Dash, flipper and air trick = Trickster. Twosome time and charged shot = Gunslinger. Aerial rave, sword pierce and the end of dance macabre = Sword master = 6/7 styles officially shown. Be stupid to say Royal guard does not exist after this. Believing in what the cutscene shows us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmBE_bGmKFM when it goes into and out of Dantes its in the form of shadows. Doppelgänger as shown in the start can just appear out of the floor.
I already made a solid claim stating how it was a full contact hit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxoMyo3Oou0&feature=related 0:21.
Mid range, either a 4m long ice move or a close range stronger version, not like getting close to Kain is a real problem. Doppelgänger is the "Style that allows the player to control shadows, effectively creating copies of himself to assist in battle." - Style file.
Not at all, in melee range perhaps but with some distance between them, Kain moves his hand a little and Dantes stuck floatingin the air and possibly unable to do anything aout it, one teleport and Kain is out of Dantes reach.
Exactly, he never changed the tactics even though he was being beaten senseless, even his DT nearly came through as if he was being damaged, he could not dodge Nero even if he was toying with him. Saying "dante was acting cocky" is not a excuse, if he was as fast as you say he is then he should see her coming and move before she can even get near, he should not be catchable by such slow foes.
No its not, thats 2 instances compared to many times where hes been shot, grabbed, hit etc, he gets impaled by a fairly obvious vergil move in the end which activates his DT so we know the sword fighting at speeds was as I said it was, just predictable slashing, as soon as Vergil lunged it was over for Dante.
I know, as your not getting anywhere with trying to downplay the reaver through gameplay. its not been used on a guy in an ape suit either, would you argue that because of this the man in the ape suit is protected? your making up random and illogical claims for what its not worked upon to try and downplay its overall power set.
I know what the powers are, but what cutscene shows each of them? When its not under Dantes control it could, also it seems inferior to Dante since obviously he defeated it.
It is if in a movement he can hold Dante into the air, Dantes running speed is not as quick as your supposed movements. So it says nothing about the copies being perfect, intelligent etc? did not think it was. Also its vulnerable to light......assuming this fight is in the Dark is a little odd dont you think? judging by the cutscene it does what the original does anyway, so it would just end up floating in the air alongside its owner.