Kratos, Link, Ganondorf, Dante vs War, Kain, LK and Bayonetta

If Kain can teleport/react fast enough. Can also chase him with speed.

He wasnt going to kill Nero, as you can see he resisted using DT and didnt even try to flail his arms, body or legs. (what someone in trouble would do) He turned his back on her and stood still 😐 Truthly yeah its because he's cocky. So in your eyes someones main personality trait doesnt mean anything but sighing must equal the Savior stopping before collision.

Cocky~ Last slash was with (weakestbeforedemonpowers)Dante weaponless and completely wide open to a faster Vergil. He got impaled when he was defeated and weakened and before he got a better regen from the unlocked demon energy.

You wont prove anything without solid evidence. Ape suit? You posting in the right thread kiddo? If you think youre right show this elusive solid proof ive been asking for.

Dash- Dante evading Neros Yamato slash. Flipper- cant remember right now. Air trick- going from the Saviors under hand and appearing above it a moment later Trickster. Twosome time- with Lady. Charged shot- Mundus, Arkham, Argosax/Despair. Aerial rave- any slash in the air/ vs Nero where they both to two slashes to each other. Sword pierce- vs Beowulf. The end of dance macabre- vs Mega scarecrow.
It got stronger when Dante fuses with it, like how they were almost even when fighting and how now its main weakness to light is gone.

Running down the Temen-ni-gru so fast that you could see the heat on his hand. It shows that it as far as we know copies the way they fight, in this case appearing and slashing Kain. Already said about the light. Can clearly see it walking towards him, so it wasnt doing the same as Dantem just the same fighting style. Can just come out of the ground and strike.

Originally posted by BloodRain
If Kain can teleport/react fast enough. Can also chase him with speed.

He wasnt going to kill Nero, as you can see he resisted using DT and didnt even try to flail his arms, body or legs. (what someone in trouble would do) He turned his back on her and stood still 😐 Truthly yeah its because he's cocky. So in your eyes someones main personality trait doesnt mean anything but sighing must equal the Savior stopping before collision.

Cocky~ Last slash was with (weakestbeforedemonpowers)Dante weaponless and completely wide open to a faster Vergil. He got impaled when he was defeated and weakened and before he got a better regen from the unlocked demon energy.

You wont prove anything without solid evidence. Ape suit? You posting in the right thread kiddo? If you think youre right show this elusive solid proof ive been asking for.

Dash- Dante evading Neros Yamato slash. Flipper- cant remember right now. Air trick- going from the Saviors under hand and appearing above it a moment later Trickster. Twosome time- with Lady. Charged shot- Mundus, Arkham, Argosax/Despair. Aerial rave- any slash in the air/ vs Nero where they both to two slashes to each other. Sword pierce- vs Beowulf. The end of dance macabre- vs Mega scarecrow.
It got stronger when Dante fuses with it, like how they were almost even when fighting and how now its main weakness to light is gone.

Running down the Temen-ni-gru so fast that you could see the heat on his hand. It shows that it as far as we know copies the way they fight, in this case appearing and slashing Kain. Already said about the light. Can clearly see it walking towards him, so it wasnt doing the same as Dantem just the same fighting style. Can just come out of the ground and strike.

He has to kill him to dodge him? Kain was not trying to kill Raziel in either of their more physical encounters, especially the first and he toyed with him without letting Raziel kick his ass. "sighing"? I think the sigh and "its over" and Dantes stance means Saviour did not swing all the way round, its too conveniant to think so for your side of the argument I am sure but we know for a fact Saviour was completly frozen and not moving under its own weight or gravity, like a statue. Him being cocky is not an excuse, as I said if he was as fast as you claim he could move and react/dodge with fractions of a millisecond to spare.

He still could not react, hell Vergil was not really moving that quick in the impalement. Watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQeRRZv8YcM&feature=related

Before the impalement Vergil was not moving fast at all against Dante, he pretty much just poked his sword in Dante after he knocked the sword from his hand....Kains going to impale Dante far quicker than that and Dante will not even necesserily know where Kains going to come from, when etc

unfortunatley for you I have the qualities of the blade and the logic behind it, you dont have anything to make it even worth my while trying to argue agaist your gameplay mechanic logic. kiddo? now your trying to antagonise me because you have no argument? "sigh" and sure champ its as ridiculous and you claiming the "weakened enemies" gag. Solid proof for what exactly? weve seen an enemy not struck by the reaver get killed in one hit, sure he was beaten but means little, we have Kain outlining how the blade works, one strike and it eats souls, we have the mechanics of what the reaver is (soul devouring sword). dante has no defence and by the looks of it, little speed when it comes to a real fight.

They were not just even, it was copying exactly what Dante did, so it will be floating harmlessly when Dante is. Also how does this show its weakness is gone?

How does that help him? those slow flying critters were not moving at any great speed, they never do yet they could cathc up with him. When has it done this outside of Dantes control? all we see it doing is copying Dante exactly, and its not got Dantes feats, so its not a perfect copy.

?? First: Raz<<<Kain, Nero<<<<<Dante. Second: Raz<Kain, Nero<<<<<Dante. Now youre saying 'this is how Kain acted' thus agreeing that it is due do their personality. We know for a fact? No no no you say as a fact based off a glance and an expression of relief. I say what is a fact based off i better understanding of whats happening then your guess work. He does move fast when he wants to like this; Dante got hit by a combo by Trish right in front of him - Dante dodged Dagon from behind him while it was hiding and while Dante was lying down. Cocky.

Slowed down effect that they were using many times in that fight. Right after he was just made open and you forget that this is Dante is his weakest form with minimal devil powers to do things Dante4/2 can do. Dante in this fight can proberble take on DMC3 Dante and Vergil at the dame time taking no damage.

Youre going on and on but you keep failing to provide proof. Heh dont take -kid- so personally, i even call my teachers it ;p but in truth your talking about ape suits... ¬,¬. Btw i havnt actually seen any gameplay of the Reaver, im getting this by the (lack of) cutscenes. And you again either lack the evidence or are just holding back for some reason. Which is it?
And you know for a fact that he wasnt struck once in a fight but somehow collapsed? And then we turn to Kain whos speed is of a normal human.

They were even as we can see Doppel walking towards a standing still Dante. Light kills him as hes just an unattached shadow, now that hes Dantes shadow he has a form. Its not a perfect copy, its a shadow copy. Dantes moves, weapons etc are replicated when he fights. Before its solid its merely a shadow.

That all? Those blood goyles just to note do move very fast, a note to go wasted as the part im talking about is when hes running after his sword. No other creatures around at the time.

Originally posted by BloodRain
?? First: Raz<<<Kain, Nero<<<<<Dante. Second: Raz<Kain, Nero<<<<<Dante. Now youre saying 'this is how Kain acted' thus agreeing that it is due do their personality. We know for a fact? No no no you say as a fact based off a glance and an expression of relief. I say what is a fact based off i better understanding of whats happening then your guess work. He does move fast [b]when he wants to like this; Dante got hit by a combo by Trish right in front of him - Dante dodged Dagon from behind him while it was hiding and while Dante was lying down. Cocky.

Slowed down effect that they were using many times in that fight. Right after he was just made open and you forget that this is Dante is his weakest form with minimal devil powers to do things Dante4/2 can do. Dante in this fight can proberble take on DMC3 Dante and Vergil at the dame time taking no damage.

Youre going on and on but you keep failing to provide proof. Heh dont take -kid- so personally, i even call my teachers it ;p but in truth your talking about ape suits... ¬,¬. Btw i havnt actually seen any gameplay of the Reaver, im getting this by the (lack of) cutscenes. And you again either lack the evidence or are just holding back for some reason. Which is it?
And you know for a fact that he wasnt struck once in a fight but somehow collapsed? And then we turn to Kain whos speed is of a normal human.

They were even as we can see Doppel walking towards a standing still Dante. Light kills him as hes just an unattached shadow, now that hes Dantes shadow he has a form. Its not a perfect copy, its a shadow copy. Dantes moves, weapons etc are replicated when he fights. Before its solid its merely a shadow.

That all? Those blood goyles just to note do move very fast, a note to go wasted as the part im talking about is when hes running after his sword. No other creatures around at the time. [/B]

I dont know what your getting at withall your >>><<<, the point was a simple one, Kain toys with Raziel without getting his ass handed to him. Dante who is apprently vastly stronger/faster in comparison with Nero even more so than Kain is to Raziel is getting beaten to the ground and your excuse is "hes being cocky" 🙄 . No, the fact is the Saviour froze solid, we know that as a fact and you do not have a better understanding, we have both played the game, your just bias. I see so he "wanted" to be impaled by Vergil, he wanted to be grabbed/shot or hit all those times because he was being cocky 😆 that sounds such a poor excuse for him just not being fast enough in a real fight or that those "showings" of apprent speed are graphic play that looks nice but are inconsistent with actual combat showings.

I have provided proof of wha the reaver does, you want proof that it works on stronger enemies which I dont actually have to provide until you have a strong case for it not working against them. I talk of ape suits to mock the fact your bringing up ridiculous reasons for the reaver not to suddenly work. Thats called a hasty generalisation fallacy in that case, infact it may be even worse because your "assuming" based on no evidence....I may as well assume Kain is immune because there is no evidence of Dantes powers or abilities working on a Nosogthian! 😱 yes because normal humans can swing and strike several opponents in different places above their own perception time.

After Dante finished using the power, other than that its just copinyng him like Simon says, Kains simon and Kain says float in the air helplessly. Sounds very weak argument, "hes dantes shadow now", hes been Dantes from the beginning.....he simply regains it again as a power.

I dont remember them moving fast outside the assumption that Dante is in this scene. Dante is moving faster than he usually does to catch up with his falling weapon but he is not moving as quickly as you assume he does in his vergil exploits.

Oh, the irony!

And in the second fight Kain 'dies' whereas in the second fight Dante ends up smacking Nero to beat him after both Raz and Nero got stronger, so its all on how he acted ie not giving a damn. End of the first Dante vs Nero, Dante makes a cocky remark and leaves. If Dante was ever in trouble he would of fought back to win. Cockiness is obvious. Yes i do, you've said yourself you don't know much about physics, i do. Also know alot about anatomy and how punches work, not like your guess work. Your statements require proof that it stopped before impact and by the last pose of the arm, it was full contact. Vergil no, many other times eg eaten by Ekidna were for the hell of it. Already shown he's fast enough in a fight, all he needs is 0.1 second speeds to stop Kains fastest moves.

No youve giving one statement by the character with no other way to back it up, so you cant prove it? Even if you think my arguments weak you should still have something which you clearly dont. Work on your mocking, that was awful. ''I may as well assume Kain is immune because there is no evidence of Dantes powers or abilities working on a Nosogthian!'' how are you not ashamed of yourself when you wrote that 😬 saying these pathetic remarks doesnt make me forget that you lack evidence. Im saying based on a lack of evidence and i just cant find anyone who will show any. Think one of Dantes enemies ate souls, dont think i counts though. Teleporting is not the same as a speed feat, its teleporting. Give a person a sword and teleportation and they now rival Kains speed. Talking about Kains overall moves, not fast at all, ive only seen Raziel do fast moves that look slow next to parkour videos.

Simon gets a sword sodomy by Doppel. It still shows it moving on its own accord as it was walking when Dante was not. He's been Dantes from the beginning...? What game were you looking at?

In the scene that they were introduced to them and when Arkam opened the gate to hell, around fast bird speed.(?) A person can run at 8m/s and have a slash speed of 20m/s at the blade tip, average slash 2-3x faster then run(depending on the person could be higher or lower) making Dantes run/slash match. Vergil attacks the Abyss with 0.008 fast moves too.

Originally posted by iChaos
Oh, the irony!

Whats ironic?

Originally posted by iChaos
Oh, the irony!

Originally posted by BloodRain
Whats ironic?

Originally posted by Burning thought
fallacy

Originally posted by BloodRain
And in the second fight Kain 'dies' whereas in the second fight Dante ends up smacking Nero to beat him after both Raz and Nero got stronger, so its all on how he acted ie not giving a damn. End of the first Dante vs Nero, Dante makes a cocky remark and leaves. If Dante was ever in trouble he would of fought back to win. Cockiness is obvious. Yes i do, you've said yourself you don't know much about physics, i do. Also know alot about anatomy and how punches work, not like your guess work. Your statements require proof that it stopped before impact and by the last pose of the arm, it was full contact. Vergil no, many other times eg eaten by Ekidna were for the hell of it. Already shown he's fast enough in a fight, all he needs is 0.1 second speeds to stop Kains fastest moves.

No youve giving one statement by the character with no other way to back it up, so you cant prove it? Even if you think my arguments weak you should still have something which you clearly dont. Work on your mocking, that was awful. ''I may as well assume Kain is immune because there is no evidence of Dantes powers or abilities working on a Nosogthian!'' how are you not ashamed of yourself when you wrote that 😬 saying these pathetic remarks doesnt make me forget that you lack evidence. Im saying based on a lack of evidence and i just cant find anyone who will show any. Think one of Dantes enemies ate souls, dont think i counts though. Teleporting is not the same as a speed feat, its teleporting. Give a person a sword and teleportation and they now rival Kains speed. Talking about Kains overall moves, not fast at all, ive only seen Raziel do fast moves that look slow next to parkour videos.

Simon gets a sword sodomy by Doppel. It still shows it moving on its own accord as it was walking when Dante was not. He's been Dantes from the beginning...? What game were you looking at?

In the scene that they were introduced to them and when Arkam opened the gate to hell, around fast bird speed.(?) A person can run at 8m/s and have a slash speed of 20m/s at the blade tip, average slash 2-3x faster then run(depending on the person could be higher or lower) making Dantes run/slash match. Vergil attacks the Abyss with 0.008 fast moves too.

Yes as I said, if Dante was as quick as you claim there would be no "underestimate", he would have quickened his speed, instead he was beaten and then impaled on his own sword. Prove its "for the hell of it", sounds like another claim that would help your argument but has no evidence for, seems unlikely hes going to get hit, shot and eaten for the "hell of it" to me. Not really, he gets impaled and defeated easily by Vergil, he gets punched, beaten and eaten by various characters from Beowulf to Saviour.

I need pathetic remarks/mockeries to match your pathetic argument. How are you not ashamed of using gameplay mechanics for an desperate attempt to protect dante from being one shotted?

Seems not because Doppel copies dante, so he will be hanging up and then struggling in pain as Kain drains him of life and takes his powers. The part where Dante says "I thought I lost my shadow".

Show us, theres no real speed so far of Dante moving at all, and in combat he gets floored, beaten or eaten quite easily.

Hit by Trish, Nero, Ekidna, Lady = No possible threat. When fighting someone of a higher threat aka Vergil or Mundus Dante shows he real potential. Savior 'hits' him once, a hit that is blocked, and Beowulf hits him once but as seen didnt do any damage to him.

How am i not ashamed? Easy- ''Btw i havnt actually seen any gameplay of the Reaver, im getting this by the (lack of) cutscenes.'' 'cos im not basing it on gamepley ^^. This is something im looking for; Yamato- Said to be able to cut through anything = the potential. Cutting through many enemies, two bosses and a huge hellgate = the proof. Reaver has the statement but feeble proof. And back to Kains speed, whats to stop Dante from using his superior speed to get behind and attack Kain, he hasnt got the speed or reactions to block/evade.

Even if it was true that it copies him, it still wouldnt float by him. Besides the point as we can see it moving on its own accord. Doppel is its own entity, it copies the opponents shadow to make a form. Until Dante gained it and it became a better copy. ''Demon that takes the same shape of his foes.'' - Boss file.

Show you the Vergil scene right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekRpHPnhFTs&feature=related 2:28, the scene is slowed by >60x, giving Vergi <0.004 hit speed. With Alastor, twins fight and vs Abyss, high speed moves are shown. Running down the Temen-ni-gru, evading Saviors grab, Dagons bite and casually appearing behind Nero in the time it took him to spin around. He's shown the speed several times.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Hit by Trish, Nero, Ekidna, Lady = No possible threat. When fighting someone of a higher threat aka Vergil or Mundus Dante shows he real potential. Savior 'hits' him once, a hit that is blocked, and Beowulf hits him once but as seen didnt do any damage to him.

How am i not ashamed? Easy- ''Btw i havnt actually seen any gameplay of the Reaver, im getting this by the (lack of) cutscenes.'' 'cos im not basing it on gamepley ^^. This is something im looking for; Yamato- Said to be able to cut through anything = the potential. Cutting through many enemies, two bosses and a huge hellgate = the proof. Reaver has the statement but feeble proof. And back to Kains speed, whats to stop Dante from using his superior speed to get behind and attack Kain, he hasnt got the speed or reactions to block/evade.

Even if it was true that it copies him, it still wouldnt float by him. Besides the point as we can see it moving on its own accord. Doppel is its own entity, it copies the opponents shadow to make a form. Until Dante gained it and it became a better copy. ''Demon that takes the same shape of his foes.'' - Boss file.

Show you the Vergil scene right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekRpHPnhFTs&feature=related 2:28, the scene is slowed by >60x, giving Vergi <0.004 hit speed. With Alastor, twins fight and vs Abyss, high speed moves are shown. Running down the Temen-ni-gru, evading Saviors grab, Dagons bite and casually appearing behind Nero in the time it took him to spin around. He's shown the speed several times.

Since when are we talking damage here? or threat? none of them apprently have any threat to him, certainly not thin air when hes waving his sword around, and vergil, speed meant nothing because the slow hits at the end is what finished Dante off, not the predictable slashes. If he was fast as you claim none of these characters would have hit him.

A lack of cutscenes does not automatically mean it cannot do what its supposed to do, even against physically strong enemies, your argument is poor and saying "zomg your comparisonz are bad" is not helping you, you cant counter how QS is the same as Soul powers in this instance. Dantes never done that to someone who can teleport/be anywhere without literally moving. If Dante gets close its because Kain wants to be close to Dante which would lilkely mean Dante is going to die.

Why? it would float on the ground then.....assuming it does not copy Dantes physical height if he is being thrown but I assume it jumps etc. it moves on its own when its being summoned and when its being called back but once its out it does exactly what Dante seems to do , are you assuming its a better copy or is there something that says this?

Thats not speed lol, Vergil is slowed as well, he does exactly the same at that point as he does at 3:40 where he just runs slicing through them. His sword is long, thin and can give a clean cut. Yes because all of those times were fast....not quick enough, hes just using trickster speeds to evade those characters, "appear and re-appear". This is not going to help him because Kain can literally do that, not just trick.

Seeing as if you put threat level together with his attitude youll get how focused he'll be. Fact is that we saw how fast they were moving, that is undeniable. So much so that it doesnt even need backing. Yeah the last hit was slower then the rest, but on a person who was just made open and weaponless, and what are the chances thats going to happpen here? An older Dante was in this similar situation with Nero, 'cept this time Dante was more experienced and wasnt stabbed by Yamato.

Not saying the lack of cutscenes discredits everything, only that we cant say to what extent. Heh you thought that me saying your comparisons are bad was an argument? Stop trying/failing to attack. Ive already said how they are not the same, you just saying im wrong does not mean i am. You say it like Kains main skill is teleporting, its not like he teleports much outside of that move (afaik) to get a good generalization of how good it is. Meh, not much difference in Dante attacking a teleporting Kain from Kain attacking an in movement Dante. Teleporting to a fast moving enemy will take you to where they 'were' and not 'are', speeds different as you can just go a little further. Kain will have not reason to be constantly teleporting around.

So it floats now? We've seen Doppels boss fight so we know it can fight by its own actions. Please remind me if ive even hinted to it being better, no idea how you can state that it moves on its own then becomes a mindless copy only to gain self control after a fight.

Oh lord -,- watch again, Vergil hits them (before he takes out his blade) while the enemies are still in slow motion. If Vergil moving at normal speed while everything is >60x slower, that means he was moving fast. 3:40 everything was at normal speed 😐.... You tell me how its not fast enough if it got him out of harms way? Or are you saying not quick enough for Kain? Because Dante3 before he got his powers unlocked is still too fast for the vamp. That ''appear and re-appear'' more is as fast as Kains teleport attack.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Seeing as if you put threat level together with his attitude youll get how focused he'll be. Fact is that we saw how fast they were moving, that is undeniable. So much so that it doesnt even need backing. Yeah the last hit was slower then the rest, but on a person who was just made open and weaponless, and what are the chances thats going to happpen here? An older Dante was in this similar situation with Nero, 'cept this time Dante was more experienced and wasnt stabbed by Yamato.

Not saying the lack of cutscenes discredits everything, only that we cant say to what extent. Heh you thought that me saying your comparisons are bad was an argument? Stop trying/failing to attack. Ive already said how they are not the same, you just saying im wrong does not mean i am. You say it like Kains main skill is teleporting, its not like he teleports much outside of that move (afaik) to get a good generalization of how good it is. Meh, not much difference in Dante attacking a teleporting Kain from Kain attacking an in movement Dante. Teleporting to a fast moving enemy will take you to where they 'were' and not 'are', speeds different as you can just go a little further. Kain will have not reason to be constantly teleporting around.

So it floats now? We've seen Doppels boss fight so we know it can fight by its own actions. Please remind me if ive even hinted to it being better, no idea how you can state that it moves on its own then becomes a mindless copy only to gain self control after a fight.

Oh lord -,- watch again, Vergil hits them (before he takes out his blade) [b]while the enemies are still in slow motion. If Vergil moving at normal speed while everything is >60x slower, that means he was moving fast. 3:40 everything was at normal speed 😐.... You tell me how its not fast enough if it got him out of harms way? Or are you saying not quick enough for Kain? Because Dante3 before he got his powers unlocked is still too fast for the vamp. That ''appear and re-appear'' more is as fast as Kains teleport attack. [/B]

His attitude does not suddeny make him slower. Yes, but such speeds are irrelevent when reacting to something not so predictable and doing a not so predictable manouver is harder to react to than predictable ones, far harder. Not just slower, Vergil was barely moving, he sort of just poked it in and Dante did nothing, I lol at you trying to argue that him being weaponless makes him slower......you dont need a sword to dodge an incoming attack, especially a slow one.

Extent of what? your comparing an attack on the spirit to the physical integrity of the target.....No youve said their not the same because of loose, poor reasons such as "zomg its a time attack" or "lolz its AOE", these do not even count relative to your argument against the soul powers of the reaver. Very different, teleportation is where you cannot be targeted or hit because your not even there, wheras movement can be manipulated. Why? its his best power, in a no holds bar fight against people naturally faster than he is hes not going to walk is he.

When its not a doppelganger of Dante, only his shadow influenced by dark power, when its his power controlling it, it just copies him. Who says its got self control? Dantes still commanding it, its just in combat that it seems to just copy Dante.

He gives them a tap, we see throughout that fight combating normally like any swordsmen, theres a couple of points where he is quicker than normal. Where you getting this 60x from? Not quite because Kains teleport is not moving, its teleporting, if someone had an AOE they can still hit Dante who can only do it over short meter distances anyway.

No it doesn't, but powers and attitude effect how someone acts; Spiderman's so acrobatic he hardly gets hit, so he makes jokes at the opponent. Wolverine has amazing regen that allows him to go all rage without fear of death. Dante has great regen so he has little worry of death similar to Logan. True that it was predictable, but even with that in Kains favour Vergil was moving so fast that Dante would have to have such high RT to block millisecond hits. By a rough calc that stab took 0.6secs, i lol at your lack of knowledge in areas but still claiming you're right. The sword being knocked out of your hand while in a life or death fight would a- create a varied amount of panic/shock and b- place your body in an awkward position to retaliate, (in this case parallel to the opponent) don't need a sword but its a hell of a lot easier compared to being hindered like this. But as the second fight of Dante and Nero shows, the same thing happened and Dante was able to evade <- the Dante in this fight.

To put it simply, one-hit ko's need to be shown doing so. The MS says it protects Link from evil magic, and its shown doing so. The Reaver just has one scene of a downed enemy. Hmm i didnt know i use so many 'z''s in my words `,` comparing a move that slows the flow of time to an attack that drains souls, little to compare at least not in this case. If teleporting (0 = pause) moves in a 1-0-1-0-1 pattern all it take is to attack him on the 1, needing speed and skill to do so. A dash is more of a 123-0-123-0-123, the teleporter fails if attacking at 1 or 2, so he has to attack at 3 like Dante has to attack at 1. If you get this (hoping you do any others don't get it) you can see that there isn't much different in hits in a teleport vs high speed. Wont that drain him? Yeah he's slower walking but using it constantly?

Its still the same force, just that now Dante has power over it. It moving on its own is it moving without Dante, so its not copying him to the letter.

A tap in 0.005 seconds. In that scene the Abyss i was focusing on took 15secs to make a move that usually takes 0.23~secs, 65~x. I meant speed from activation to hit, Kain is around 0.8 (start-up) to 0.3 (without start-up) while Dantes is also around 0.35. Distance is around 5m~

Originally posted by BloodRain
No it doesn't, but powers and attitude effect how someone acts; Spiderman's so acrobatic he hardly gets hit, so he makes jokes at the opponent. Wolverine has amazing regen that allows him to go all rage without fear of death. Dante has great regen so he has little worry of death similar to Logan. True that it was predictable, but even with that in Kains favour Vergil was moving so fast that Dante would have to have such high RT to block millisecond hits. By a rough calc that stab took 0.6secs, i lol at your lack of knowledge in areas but still claiming you're right. The sword being knocked out of your hand while in a life or death fight would a- create a varied amount of panic/shock and b- place your body in an awkward position to retaliate, (in this case parallel to the opponent) don't need a sword but its a hell of a lot easier compared to being hindered like this. But as the second fight of Dante and Nero shows, the same thing happened and Dante was able to evade <- the Dante in this fight.

To put it simply, one-hit ko's need to be shown doing so. The MS says it protects Link from evil magic, and its shown doing so. The Reaver just has one scene of a downed enemy. Hmm i didnt know i use so many 'z''s in my words `,` comparing a move that slows the flow of time to an attack that drains souls, little to compare at least not in this case. If teleporting (0 = pause) moves in a 1-0-1-0-1 pattern all it take is to attack him on the 1, needing speed and skill to do so. A dash is more of a 123-0-123-0-123, the teleporter fails if attacking at 1 or 2, so he has to attack at 3 like Dante has to attack at 1. If you get this (hoping you do any others don't get it) you can see that there isn't much different in hits in a teleport vs high speed. Wont that drain him? Yeah he's slower walking but using it constantly?

Its still the same force, just that now Dante has power over it. It moving on its own is it moving without Dante, so its not copying him to the letter.

A tap in 0.005 seconds. In that scene the Abyss i was focusing on took 15secs to make a move that usually takes 0.23~secs, 65~x. I meant speed from activation to hit, Kain is around 0.8 (start-up) to 0.3 (without start-up) while Dantes is also around 0.35. Distance is around 5m~

I dont know these comic book characters adventurs so I cannot comment on them, but by the sounds of it your trying to say that Dante just decides to get hit because he does not fear death? 🙄 thats baseless, Dantes power/strength is not that great, his speed is his main asset and he had no idea how he would survive being eaten or hit by some of these enemies, hes never faced them before, especially Saviour. Really? based on what? millisecond hits, all their doing is swinging their sword at eachother and as soon as they actually get serious, their far slower yet stronger assault leaves Dante wanting and impaled on the ground. Youve got no "greater" knowledge, your just claiming you do and then trying to argue that makes you automatically correct.

Not really, Saviours never one hit Koed anyone but we dont argue whether he could do it to someone, and this is a exotic magic weapon that nobody has protection against, it does not KO, it just eats your soul. Since when is the reaver evil? hell the vampires are perhaps in their own way the saviours of their world and the creators of the sword and Raziels destiny (Raziel also being perhaps the more benign ) were like angels before the Hyldens transformation of them. But you can never predict the 1, 1 can be anywhere from behind you, on your head, to half a mile away. Drain him? of what?

Your logic is the same QS defence as it is in your attack against soul powers, theres nothing to defend against either yet your complaining Soul powers are not used on strong enemies, neither is QS 😉

I think your calculations are flawed, their contradicted by the fact that when they fight seriously and gain greater effect out of their powers they are slower than wild slashes at those speeds. But thats not RT, thats just swinging your sword around, hes not even aiming or looking at his enemies.

Don't need to know them to get the point, and some hits yeah he had no need to stop the opponent for instance Trish. Like in the opening scene of VanHellsing where Dracula gets easily impaled then walks into the blade. You can keep ignoring the Savior punch but it wont go away ^^ when held up to Kains best strength of pushing 80tons. He has knowledge in the being eaten area ;p and one of Neros attacks is to go into Beals mouth and attack, Dante has less fear then him, off point. Already done the math to show the speed. If i thought anything i said would make me automatically correct i wouldnt have the need to argue with you would i? I worked these things out based on viewing/maths/physics/psychology/anatomy and i still dont believe im 100% right. On the other hand you use 1 and a minimal of the rest of those and and claim to more correct over what i say.

Savior can one-hit KO humans but not a stronger being :/ point here? Im fine with that but its hard to say to what extent, as with what you said the Reaver can take a soul by just breaking the skin. The extent should be shown. Oh i didnt imply the Reaver was evil, i was saying how Links sword repels evil and has shown doing so. Precisely. 0-1-0-1 crossing with 0-123-0-123 will not work as Kain only gets a direct hit on 3, but that can come at any time like 1222222223 meaning he has to attack when Dante stops for simply striking just before 3 will place him in the 1 state and in range. Teleporter vs high speed are as unpredictable as each other. (to each other) Of vampire juices? I dunno, i just remember it being restricted to how much energy he has. /shrugs

There was/is no defence for QS as there's nothing attacking it. Cutscenes show what happened, QS stopped time, Doppel does not mirror everything Dante does and the Reaver took the soul of a beaten foe.

In what way is it though? Vergil looked normal at speed/65. On the rooftop they fought seriously and were faster then vs the Abyss, even Vergils 'too fast to be seen' moves show this. Lets say a humans RT is '10', any slash at speeds 1-10 he can react to and block. Faster then 10 he hasnt the RT to react in time. If Vergil moves at 20 Dante needs RT of at least 20 to block. Fair relationship between RT and speed of user. Iirc all of his hits landed on the target, no 'just swinging' to me.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Don't need to know them to get the point, and some hits yeah he had no need to stop the opponent for instance Trish. Like in the opening scene of VanHellsing where Dracula gets easily impaled then walks into the blade. You can keep ignoring the Savior punch but it wont go away ^^ when held up to Kains best strength of pushing 80tons. He has knowledge in the being eaten area ;p and one of Neros attacks is to go into Beals mouth and attack, Dante has less fear then him, off point. Already done the math to show the speed. If i thought anything i said would make me automatically correct i wouldnt have the need to argue with you would i? I worked these things out based on viewing/maths/physics/psychology/anatomy and i still dont believe im 100% right. On the other hand you use 1 and a minimal of the rest of those and and claim to more correct over what i say.

Savior can one-hit KO humans but not a stronger being :/ point here? Im fine with that but its hard to say to what extent, as with what you said the Reaver can take a soul by just breaking the skin. The extent should be shown. Oh i didnt imply the Reaver was evil, i was saying how Links sword repels evil and has shown doing so. Precisely. 0-1-0-1 crossing with 0-123-0-123 will not work as Kain only gets a direct hit on 3, but that can come at any time like 1222222223 meaning he has to attack when Dante stops for simply striking just before 3 will place him in the 1 state and in range. Teleporter vs high speed are as unpredictable as each other. (to each other) Of vampire juices? I dunno, i just remember it being restricted to how much energy he has. /shrugs

There was/is no defence for QS as there's nothing attacking it. Cutscenes show what happened, QS stopped time, Doppel does not mirror everything Dante does and the Reaver took the soul of a beaten foe.

In what way is it though? Vergil looked normal at speed/65. On the rooftop they fought seriously and were faster then vs the Abyss, even Vergils 'too fast to be seen' moves show this. Lets say a humans RT is '10', any slash at speeds 1-10 he can react to and block. Faster then 10 he hasnt the RT to react in time. If Vergil moves at 20 Dante needs RT of at least 20 to block. Fair relationship between RT and speed of user. Iirc all of his hits landed on the target, no 'just swinging' to me.

Trish is perhaps one that makes sense because he knows who she is, what shes capable of etc, but what about all those demons, especially Saviour who he does not know the top strength of? theres no way he knew Echidna would not have digested/dissolved him in fluids as soon as she ate him. The saviour feat is a durability one, not a strength one, the best strength feat of Dante is prob breaking a little statue in anger or using a bike as a weapon. I dont know, you may argue just for the interest of argueing even if you know youve won, I have done it in the past. I view the same, everyone does apart from maybe math and theres flaws in Dantes previous showings of these things that make it impossible for him to move at the speeds you belive. No I just use most of them and then take into account how consistent it is in comparison to all his showings, bringing in comic book characters if Thanos punts Galactus across a planet then thats not consistent with the rest of his powers if hes rarely done something like this under his own power before, Dante is worse because with Dante he gets eaten, hit, and shot quite often to show off his regen or for "action" appeal.

Hes never hit a strong, or weat being though and Koed them 😉 or striking it according to Kain. The extent is up to soul immunity, if someone had soul immunity or resistance then perhaps it could be argued but not Dante who does not. I thought you were trying to imply it would protect link but ok, fair enough but a bit of a random statement 😛 . Only teleport you cannot predict at all, you cant even throw an attack at a teleporter in the hope it will hit, even an AOE, wheras in Dantes case, if you tossed an AOE or a wave attack at him he would be hit regardless of speed (unles he got out of the AOE).

Theres the fact its never frozen a strong being in time, kinda like how the soul reaver has never taken a soul from a "strong" being according to you. Doppel mirrors all combat moves of Dante. Or the reaver took the soul of a "foe", the "beaten" part does not make any relevance, the Sarafan lord afaik has no soul resistances.

Flawed based on the fact he fights normally for the majority of the fight just like anyone with a sword, the only times it seems Dante/vergil fight as quick as you think they do is when their not looking at their enemies or reacting at all, their just swinging their weapons. I dont agree, I dont think their fighting seriously until they slow down and smash swords together, up till then their just swinging their swords in predicatble slashes, their better swordsmen than that.

He didn't know Trish then. If he was worried about Ekidna he wouldn't of turned his back on her. On that he's been eaten by the Leviathan so he knows what its like being eaten by a demon. A punch like Beowulf is durability, Dante needed strength for Savior or he would of been crushed. Though i dont know about others but i have a good deal and for some years of knowledge in those, it wont make it impossible just because he doesnt do his best feats a the time. Vergil knocks Dantes sword away and stabs him, Nero does the same thing but the outcome is different. You mention someone like Thanos but you don't know much about Spidey and Wolverine? >_>

If it can break rock it can break a person :3 Was meant to put that example in with the Yamato one, fail. AOE can effect him on the 1, would leave him open to assault.

Taking a soul from a strong weakened enemy. Without further showings up its power, the single move kill is still up in the air.

That doesn't make the math flawed. Vergil wasn't 'just swinging' when he hit them, they were precise hits that landed each time. Nor were Dantes and Vergil as each hit was counted by equally fast hits. Its like catching a ball thrown by a ten year old to one thrown by a pro pitcher, you're gonna need better RT to catch the latter not just speed.

Originally posted by BloodRain
He didn't know Trish then. If he was worried about Ekidna he wouldn't of turned his back on her. On that he's been eaten by the Leviathan so he knows what its like being eaten by a demon. A punch like Beowulf is durability, Dante needed strength for Savior or he would of been crushed. Though i dont know about others but i have a good deal and for some years of knowledge in those, it wont make it impossible just because he doesnt do his best feats a the time. Vergil knocks Dantes sword away and stabs him, Nero does the same thing but the outcome is different. You mention someone like Thanos but you don't know much about Spidey and Wolverine? >_>

If it can break rock it can break a person :3 Was meant to put that example in with the Yamato one, fail. AOE can effect him on the 1, would leave him open to assault.

Taking a soul from a strong weakened enemy. Without further showings up its power, the single move kill is still up in the air.

That doesn't make the math flawed. Vergil wasn't 'just swinging' when he hit them, they were precise hits that landed each time. Nor were Dantes and Vergil as each hit was counted by equally fast hits. Its like catching a ball thrown by a ten year old to one thrown by a pro pitcher, you're gonna need better RT to catch the latter not just speed.

That helps me. How does that counter the idea that he never knew he would survive? he knew little about her, just pure arrogance. Eaten by a giant whalelike demon, very different. Well no, Saviour did not go all the way, his functions froze remember? There are too many inconsistencies for you to claim "he could do it if he needed to" and thats not to mension these speeds are from your calculations, the only time he is quick is when hes just swinging randomly, not accurate reactions, anyone can swing randomly. You have a point, Thanos was less common, I guess I was just trying to say that comics are not my thing.

And if the reaver can take a soul, it can take a soul....

Well not quite, its just a single move kill, the physical strength of an enemy is no more a resistance against soul powers than it is against time stop.

It does when its inconsistent, the math is calaculated for a brief event which does not connect with the rest of the scene, e.g. Vergil fighting like any swordsmen. Precise, all he did was swing, he was not even looking. They were not "countered" the same way you would an accurate and non predictable attack, they were both just swinging their swords at eachother, as soon as they slowed down and got more serious blows in Vergil despite being so slow was able to disarm and impale dante without hardly trying. Only Vergil did not use his "pro" swordsmanship until he slowed down at the end, before that they were just swinging blows.

I just remembered, and found, this. I think it might be useful.

http://www.zeldawiki.org/Magic_Ring

Originally posted by The Scenario
I just remembered, and found, this. I think it might be useful.

http://www.zeldawiki.org/Magic_Ring