Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Because it is no longer on Newsarama, as I predicted back then would one day be the case.So having the relatively unbiased confirmation of a forum moderator helps to verify that what was there really WAS there for people to read, and that the interview posted in this thread earlier a page or so ago was legitimate.
Oh, okay. Yes, i've used it in debates myself on the topic of sacrifice.
Originally posted by abhilegend
I liked how you convieniently skipped where diana admitted that karen was equal in strength to her.
Karen's from a far different place than Superman 2005 -2011.
In fact, she's a pre-Crisis Kryptonian who still remembers the Crisis on Infinite Earths.
By all rights, Karen should be moving things on the level of Superboy Prime. If she ISN'T doing so, BEING pre-Crisis Kryptonian, one should seriously ask the question why. I'd be surprised if anyone in this forum does, though.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Karen's from a far different place than Superman 2005 -2011.
In fact, she's a pre-Crisis Kryptonian who still remembers the Crisis on Infinite Earths.
By all rights, Karen should be moving things on the level of Superboy Prime. If she ISN'T doing so, BEING pre-Crisis Kryptonian, one should seriously ask the question why. I'd be surprised if anyone in this forum does, though.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Certainly possible, Abhi.But freeze breath sure didn't stop THIS one ...
He saw doomsday swing his arm towards him, not diana throwing her tiara.
That's what makes sacrifice even more bogus.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
>> The first scan that was put up with the JLA holding Superman, just want to let you all know that before this, he was feeding off of Sunlight...he was basically amped.> There is no conclusive way to say.
If there's not a conclusive way to say THAT much, there isn't a conclusive way to say much about anything at all in comicdom.
That's one of the basic premises OF post-Crisis Superman, Abhi:
more sun = more power, including greater resistance to kryptonite
Again, Superman HIMSELF says that his greater prior sun exposure was the reason he was able to survive the JLA assault at ALL ...
Originally posted by abhilegend
There is no conclusive way to say.
Freeze breath is a great way to stop projectiles.
Not if it's thrown at equal superhuman speed.
And it's not like freeze breath has stopped him getting cut open by magical weapons in the past. Freeze breath would be good for stopping many threats before they happen, yet we never see that in the comics, do we? Like Flash ending any threat by page one using his light speed.
Originally posted by roughrider
Not if it's thrown at equal superhuman speed.And it's not like freeze breath has stopped him getting cut open by magical weapons in the past. Freeze breath would be good for stopping many threats before they happen, yet we never see that in the comics, do we? Like Flash ending any threat by page one using his light speed.
Originally posted by abhilegend
There is no reason [freeze breath] can't stop [Diana's] tiara in a forum match.
Abhi, I'll stoccato these "versus" standards and then go on to the more interesting question you posed earlier.
The answer to this one, for instance, is, "whether or not there is any reason freeze breath cannot stop Diana's tiara in a FORUM MATCH, it did NOT stop Diana's tiara in Greg Rucka's 'Sacrifice'.
And so she won.
Holding back.
Without needing to kill Superman."
Originally posted by roughrider
Freeze breath would be good for stopping many threats before they happen, yet we never see that in the comics, do we? Like Flash ending any threat by page one using his light speed.
Have to say; one thing I've always intended to do but never got around to as a comic fan, is get a collection of "Flash" comics.
I'm thinking the people that write Flash, assuming they write him well, have to be among the most brilliant in the industry, arguably THE most brilliant writers in the comic industry. I mean, seriously, short of using clones of the Justice League, how in the world do you write someone powerful enough to challenge that guy?!?
Someday, I've GOT to unravel the mystery of how they write good villains for him.
Originally posted by abhilegend[Man of Tomorrow #13] has many contradictions like [Kyle Rayner] producing kryptonite which [Green Lanterns] can't produce post-crisis.
The easy answer to this is "Green Lanterns can produce kryptonite post-Crisis in Man of Tomorrow #13, apparently. Perhaps Walter Simonson (or whoever the author of that book was) disagrees with you ... ?"
But I'll give you a freebie here and point out that it is NOT necessary to produce kryptonite to bring down Superman. Merely making him fully, genuinely THINK kryptonite is present is enough to shut him down under the right conditions. Witness what Protex of the Hyperclan (the White Martians of Grant Morrison's JLA volume 1) does in their 1st encounter.
Originally posted by abhilegend[Superman] saw doomsday swing his arm towards him [in Wonder Woman volume 2, #219], not diana throwing her tiara.
That's what makes "sacrifice" even more bogus.
That's what makes "Sacrifice" more LEGITIMATE, is what you mean.
If he's seeing Doomsday's arm coming toward him, which, presumably, he might block, doesn't it make sense he'd be caught more easily than if he clear-headedly perceived that invincible blade coming straight for him?
Originally posted by biensalsaNew earth Superman killed New earth Wonder Woman in an alternative timeline.
Many people may claim that in an alternative timeline Wonder Woman maybe did not had any of her power upgrades, but also on an alternative timeline Superman did not had his power upgrades.
This evens the field.
Superman/Batman #15 features Wonder Woman getting ambushed, largely unaware, from space. She's got about as much chance in Loeb's setup in that story as the bartender in Eastwood's movie, "Unforgiven".
'Bout the bracers: Superboy PRIME failed to shatter the set of these that Wonder Girl wears. Is Loeb's Superman more powerful than THAT planet-moving boy was? Or is it likely that, given she has a different background with a different outfit, that, like other alternate versions of her, this Wonder Woman, too was different?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Abhi, I'll stoccato these "versus" standards and then go on to the more interesting question you posed earlier.The answer to this one, for instance, is, "whether or not there is any reason freeze breath cannot stop Diana's tiara in a FORUM MATCH, it did NOT stop Diana's tiara in Greg Rucka's 'Sacrifice'.
And so she won.
Holding back.
Without needing to kill Superman."
I don't know if i'd consider it a "win" tbh. She stopped him, sure, but I wouldn't say she beat him.
Originally posted by abhilegend
You answer my question, why would a superman storyline ends in a wonder woman title when there is no reason to move it there?
I would honor-bind myself to answering this one on principle, since you earlier responded to one of my demands, but this is the interesting question.
The answer, to the best of MY knowledge, is two-fold.
One, there IS a reason to move a storyline into a wonder woman title.
In fact, there are several. For starters, Wonder Woman is the only one who is immune to Max Lord's mind control. Superman is not. Superman is under control. By definition, if he cannot break that control himself, some outside character MUST help him to do that, unless Max has a change of heart all on his own. None of the other heroes can do it, though. The few that are powerful enough to challenge Superman and bring him under control are themselves at risk for becoming Max's pawns if they try.
Diana, in fact, isn't even sure SHE will be resistant enough.
Fortunately, though, she is.
From that in-story standpoint, the story MUST be resolved by someone other than Superman. So why NOT have the story go in another character's book?
More than that: what makes you think Rucka's "Sacrifice" IS a Superman story? Was Max Lord a Superman villain before now? Did he and Clark clash before?
More even than THIS, though.
What exactly got "sacrificed" IN "Sacrifice"?
Have you never wondered the meaning of the title.
It's possible to go with the generic "Max Lord was a sacrifice to the gods we call our heroes", I suppose. He gave his life in hope of saving us all?
But a reading of the follow-up issues of Rucka's run IN Wonder Woman, echoes what is expressed in my attachment below, from everything I can tell, and if necessary I can deliver scans from post Wonder Woman 219 issues to make the point stronger ...
Hmm.
Let me not forsake my commitment to providing reference info for all my material. The previous image, Wonder Woman speaking to Batman ... ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: War of the Gods #2
Writer: George Perez
Pencillers: Cynthia Martin & George Perez
Date: October 1991
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/War_of_the_Gods_Vol_1_2
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Abhi, I'll stoccato these "versus" standards and then go on to the more interesting question you posed earlier.The answer to this one, for instance, is, "whether or not there is any reason freeze breath cannot stop Diana's tiara in a FORUM MATCH, it did NOT stop Diana's tiara in Greg Rucka's 'Sacrifice'.
And so she won.
Holding back.
Without needing to kill Superman."
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The easy answer to this is "Green Lanterns can produce kryptonite post-Crisis in Man of Tomorrow #13, apparently. Perhaps Walter Simonson (or whoever the author of that book was) disagrees with you ... ?"But I'll give you a freebie here and point out that it is NOT necessary to produce kryptonite to bring down Superman. Merely making him fully, genuinely THINK kryptonite is present is enough to shut him down under the right conditions. Witness what Protex of the Hyperclan (the White Martians of Grant Morrison's JLA volume 1) does in their 1st encounter.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That's what makes "Sacrifice" more LEGITIMATE, is what you mean.
If he's seeing Doomsday's arm coming toward him, which, presumably, he might block, doesn't it make sense he'd be caught more easily than if he clear-headedly perceived that invincible blade coming straight for him?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Superman/Batman #15 features Wonder Woman getting ambushed, largely unaware, from space. She's got about as much chance in Loeb's setup in that story as the bartender in Eastwood's movie, "Unforgiven".'Bout the bracers: Superboy PRIME failed to shatter the set of these that Wonder Girl wears. Is Loeb's Superman more powerful than THAT planet-moving boy was? Or is it likely that, given she has a different background with a different outfit, that, like other alternate versions of her, this Wonder Woman, too was different?
😂 @this bullshit
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/014-SupermanBatman015Rembrandt-DCP-1.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/015-SupermanBatman015Rembrandt-DCP.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/016-SupermanBatman015Rembrandt-DCP.jpg
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I would honor-bind myself to answering this one on principle, since you earlier responded to one of my demands, but this is the interesting question.The answer, to the best of MY knowledge, is two-fold.
One, there IS a reason to move a storyline into a wonder woman title.
In fact, there are several. For starters, Wonder Woman is the only one who is immune to Max Lord's mind control. Superman is not. Superman is under control. By definition, if he cannot break that control himself, some outside character MUST help him to do that, unless Max has a change of heart all on his own. None of the other heroes can do it, though. The few that are powerful enough to challenge Superman and bring him under control are themselves at risk for becoming Max's pawns if they try.
Diana, in fact, isn't even sure SHE will be resistant enough.
Fortunately, though, she is.From that in-story standpoint, the story MUST be resolved by someone other than Superman. So why NOT have the story go in another character's book?
More than that: what makes you think Rucka's "Sacrifice" IS a Superman story? Was Max Lord a Superman villain before now? Did he and Clark clash before?
More even than THIS, though.
What exactly got "sacrificed" IN "Sacrifice"?
Have you never wondered the meaning of the title.It's possible to go with the generic "Max Lord was a sacrifice to the gods we call our heroes", I suppose. He gave his life in hope of saving us all?
But a reading of the follow-up issues of Rucka's run IN Wonder Woman, echoes what is expressed in my attachment below, from everything I can tell, and if necessary I can deliver scans from post Wonder Woman 219 issues to make the point stronger ...
Yeah, in invasion and in JLI.
You are just making a fool of yourself here. Stop this whining of how wonder woman isn't treated fairly and is more powerful than superman bullshit.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Why would a Superman storyline ends in a Wonder Woman title when there is no reason to move it there?
As I said before, the answer to this question is two-fold.
The first is that there are good in-story reasons. Superman is under control. Someone else needs to free him. All other immediately available heroes are potential pawns; Wonder Woman is the only one equipped under the story's circumstances to save Superman.
The second answer, however, is the fourth-wall answer, and is what made your question interesting. Rucka chose to end the "Superman" storyline, as you call it, in a Wonder Woman title, in order to boost sales.
That can be stated as the reason for nearly everything that happens in the industry, of course, but this is one of the few times where that strategy worked, and worked WELL.
So well, in fact, that you can demonstrate the fact of increased sales via chart, as one poster on now-gone DC Comics Message Boards was kind enough to do for viewers on that forum.
The figures that back up the chart can be found via a number of archives and sources. In all likelihood I myself will post them if allowed. In the meantime, examine the attachment. Note the trend of the average comic is to start high and drop to a stable but low finishing point. Typically, a high peak is found when a comic is re-numbered. Note how high Wonder Woman Volume 3, #1 is, for instance. (People LOVE to collect #1s.)
Note however, the second highest peak in that period, which spans a length of several YEARS, is the Superman/Wonder Woman fight issue, Wonder Woman #219, Volume 2. More remarkably than THAT, though, note that sales remained SEVERAL THOUSAND units higher than what they had been before that point, and stayed that way until the end of Rucka's run.
