Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Based on the 2003-2011 period, I don't see how people can argue that Superman has anything that proves HIM stronger.Where's the proof for THAT case, P.R.?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Wait, you're telling me the more sun he gets the more powerful he gets?
Originally posted by abhilegend
good joke.
Except I'm not joking.
It's one thing to toss out comments like this.
It's another thing entirely to lay out a case and back it up with good reasoning.
Attacking my position without having anything to support you isn't going to be enough in this discussion, Abhi.
Prove to me now that Superman is physically stronger than Wonder Woman under normal conditions.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Except I'm not joking.It's one thing to toss out comments like this.
It's another thing entirely to lay out a case and back it up with good reasoning.
Attacking my position without having anything to support you isn't going to be enough in this discussion, Abhi.
Prove to me now that Superman is physically stronger than Wonder Woman under normal conditions.
Well, for starters
Here she admits power girl is "at least as strong as me" and this was in her own title.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2010/89967654.jpg
Here is power girl vs superman with a crap load of heroes trying to subdue superman
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Based on the 2003-2011 period, I don't see how people can argue that Superman has anything that proves HIM stronger.Where's the proof for THAT case, P.R.?
2003 JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice
Sentinel is called the most powerful being on the planet when making the statement panel switches to Superman fighting Bizarro.
Sentinel and Superman are treated as the most powerful members of each team.
2003 Scary Monsters
Superman faces MAGICAL monsters who basically do a short work of Diana. Superman fights and keeps fighting even though this are MAGICAL BEINGS.
Diana gets frozen on will powered Ice, Diana cannot escape, Superman makes the statement that He could free her, but he is afraid his power surge will damage Diana's body
JLA 77 2003 Superman lifts a mini singularity that has lasted for millenia. Before He lifts it, He has to face Diana and Firestorm who want to destroy the Mnemon.
JLA 78 2003 Superman not Diana is the last line of defense vs Theorical mass
Tenth Circle 2004 a mind controlled SM is said to be as strong as Diana. MIND CONTROLLED AND since He has been controlled by a vampire NO SUNLIGHT EXPOSURE for several days.
Should I keep going?
I have not even started going into the Superbooks and bring a REAL VS OMACS comparison.
Still waiting for an answer on Rucka justifying the Sun moving out of the way, unless You concede this was PIS at it's finest.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Still waiting for an answer on Rucka justifying the Sun moving out of the way, unless You concede this was PIS at it's finest.
PIS is an acronym for "Plot Induced Stupidity".
I'd be lying if I said I agreed with you.
In Spanish, calling it that might work.
Not so in English.
Here's the problem:
The plot of a story is something a writer crafts.
In the case of Wonder Woman 219, that would be Greg Rucka.
However, I don't believe what we see is due to HIS direction.
I believe the problem, instead, lies with how the ARTISTS chose to portray or omit action.
As I said before, the logical scenario is
Wonder Woman frees self,
Wonder Woman moves AWAY from burning heat (toward Earth),
Wonder Woman nevertheless must advance to retrieve friend (toward Sun),
Wonder Woman is repelled ... all the way back to Earth.
Any failure to show that I would blame on the artists, not Rucka.
Especially since there are other miscues. For instance, as I said earlier, and you yourself corroborated, the sun does not explain the weird lighting effects we see. Diana is front lit when her BACK is facing the sun? But it makes sense if you say the artists disregarded whatever location was chosen for the sun and used the glow of Bruce's kryptonite ring as the light source.
Similarly, it makes little sense in English for Diana to say to herself,
"I've got to free my hands".
Her hands aren't being held!
It's her NECK Kal has ahold of.
Diana's hands are free to do whatever they want.
Similarly she grabs Supe's eyes with her fingers, painfully stopping his sunward rush. Shouldn't he be favoring or trying to protect his face afterward, then? Yet the next panel shows Clark doubled over, as if something hit him in the stomach. Or perhaps even someplace ... sensitive. Certainly whatever it is that transpires is enough to give Diana the chance to try to reverse fight action.
And it may or may not have been explicitly enough shown for readers to come to a correct and definitive conclusion.
But, if it's not, I DON'T believe that is the fault of Greg Rucka.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
PIS is an acronym for "Plot Induced Stupidity".I'd be lying if I said I agreed with you.
In Spanish, calling it that might work.
Not so in English.
Here's the problem:
The plot of a story is something a writer crafts.In the case of Wonder Woman 219, that would be Greg Rucka.
However, I don't believe what we see is due to HIS direction.I believe the problem, instead, lies with how the ARTISTS chose to portray or omit action.
As I said before, the logical scenario is
Wonder Woman frees self,
Wonder Woman moves AWAY from burning heat (toward Earth),
Wonder Woman nevertheless must advance to retrieve friend (toward Sun),
Wonder Woman is repelled ... all the way back to Earth.Any failure to show that I would blame on the artists, not Rucka.
Especially since there are other miscues. For instance, as I said earlier, and you yourself corroborated, the sun does not explain the weird lighting effects we see. Diana is front lit when her BACK is facing the sun? But it makes sense if you say the artists disregarded whatever location was chosen for the sun and used the glow of Bruce's kryptonite ring as the light source.
Similarly, it makes little sense in English for Diana to say to herself,
"I've got to free my hands".Her hands aren't being held!
It's her NECK Kal has ahold of.
Diana's hands are free to do whatever they want.Similarly she grabs Supe's eyes with her fingers, painfully stopping his sunward rush. Shouldn't he be favoring or trying to protect his face afterward, then? Yet the next panel shows Clark doubled over, as if something hit him in the stomach. Or perhaps even someplace ... sensitive. Certainly whatever it is that transpires is enough to give Diana the chance to try to reverse fight action.
And it may or may not have been explicitly enough shown for readers to come to a correct and definitive conclusion.
But, if it's not, I DON'T believe that is the fault of Greg Rucka.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Toss out wonder woman's strength feats.
Originally posted by biensalsa
2003 JLA/JSA Virtue and ViceSentinel is called the most powerful being on the planet when making the statement panel switches to Superman fighting Bizarro.
Sentinel and Superman are treated as the most powerful members of each team.
Are you sure you have the right comic?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Are you sure you have the right comic?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😕
Originally posted by biensalsa
2003 JLA/JSA Virtue and ViceSentinel is called the most powerful being on the planet when making the statement panel switches to Superman fighting Bizarro.
Sentinel and Superman are treated as the most powerful members of each team.
I am actually happy you brought up this trade.
It illustrates the point I was making before, that Wonder Woman is consistently undersold, to a degree people are probably not consciously aware of.
For instance, it is true that Superman gets wasted in the fights in this book.
Everybody does.
But when it comes time to perform a feat that symbolizes "strength" to the average person, he is still allowed to do said chore.
There is absolutely no reason the creative staff could not have had Diana do the following, for instance, yet who gets the honor?
And how does that vote go normally?
What is the overall impression people will get once you start getting an established HISTORY of Character A, though fully capable of doing what Character B does, seldom if ever chosen by writers to DO any of the things Character B does, and instead always giving them to Character B?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice
Writer: Geoff Johns
Penciller: Carlos Pacheco
Date: December 2002
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA/JSA:_Virtue_and_Vice
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I am actually happy you brought up this trade.It illustrates the point I was making before, that Wonder Woman is consistently undersold, to a degree people are probably not consciously aware of.
For instance, it is true that Superman gets wasted in the fights in this book.
Everybody does.
But when it comes time to perform a feat that symbolizes "strength" to the average person, he is still allowed to do said chore.
There is absolutely no reason the creative staff could not have had Diana do the following, for instance, yet who gets the honor?
And how does that vote go normally?
What is the overall impression people will get once you start getting an established HISTORY of Character A, though fully capable of doing what Character B does, seldom if ever chosen by writers to DO any of the things Character B does, and instead always giving them to Character B?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice
Writer: Geoff Johns
Penciller: Carlos Pacheco
Date: December 2002
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA/JSA:_Virtue_and_Vice
Originally posted by abhilegend
Alas, DCMB is closed but someone named guest2 argued that since diana has the strength of gaea greater than hercules who is as strong as superman as he sucker punched superman away in JSA, so she is stronger than him. The thread title was "How many times is wonder woman stronger than superman" and it had more than 600 replies IIRC. Our dear bluewaterrider thinks that too apparentlymmm
That is some really, really bad ABC logic.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Based on the 2003-2011 period, I don't see how people can argue that Superman has anything that proves HIM stronger.Where's the proof for THAT case, P.R.?
His superior strength feats? A distinct strength advantage on the few occasions they've fought? Or even when compared to their results against certain villains?
Why are we limiting it to 2003-2011 though?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Wait, you're telling me the more sun he gets the more powerful he gets?
Is that a trick question or a sarcastic one?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I am actually happy you brought up this trade.It illustrates the point I was making before, that Wonder Woman is consistently undersold, to a degree people are probably not consciously aware of.
not being portrayed as Superman's equal in strength is not the same thing as her being undersold. I hope you're not implying that it is.
Originally posted by -Pr-
That is some really, really bad ABC logic.His superior strength feats? A distinct strength advantage on the few occasions they've fought? Or even when compared to their results against certain villains?
Why are we limiting it to 2003-2011 though?
Is that a trick question or a sarcastic one?
not being portrayed as Superman's equal in strength is not the same thing as her being undersold. I hope you're not implying that it is.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Supergirl was blatantly shown to be Superman's inferior strength wise.
I'm just basing this on memory but one thing was certain, superman wasn't in top 10.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Not for guest2 though. His/her list of strength was something like this
1. Wonder woman
2. J'onn
3. Orion
4. Captain marvel
5. Black adam
6. Supergirl
7. Power girl
8. Lobo
9. Mon-El
10. AndromedaI'm just basing this on memory but one thing was certain, superman wasn't in top 10.
Well, that's just silly.
Originally posted by bluewaterriderOr maybe the writers give Superman the more impressive physical feats because he is physically stronger?
IWhat is the overall impression people will get once you start getting an established HISTORY of Character A, though fully capable of doing what Character B does, seldom if ever chosen by writers to DO any of the things Character B does, and instead always giving them to Character B?
But no that can't be right, huh?
