Originally posted by Mshinu
2) Apocalypse and Magneto are examples of characters that get no respect, in many cases because people don`t know their full powerset or general history. A little knowledge is good before making a statement, and a visit to the respect thread a good way to get it.3) VS threads often degenerate into a discussion about who can sucker punch / zap the other before defenses are raised. I think it should be asumed any defense that is near-instant should be concidered to be in place as the match starts.
Apocalypse jobs too much, Magnus is still somewhat underated but certainly gets a lot more respect than him.
I agrre with 3, the problem is what the rules say about autoshields and how people adhere to it vehemently while disconsidering so many others of them. the only solution is to make more threads with quick defense modifiers in the op to five non speedsters a chance, the beggining conditions for arena style fights are not very realistic anyway.
Originally posted by 753
Apocalypse jobs too much, Magnus is still somewhat underated but certainly gets a lot more respect than him.
Apoc certainly jobs, but a lot of his low showings are simply because he was depowered or near death at the time. Like with Supes or Wolverine you have to concider the current incarnation.
Originally posted by illadelph12
The anti-Apocalypse/"Table" jokes. It stopped being funny in 2006. The 616 version has a great resume and hasn't lost sans a plot device in direct encounters when at full power, but all that gets mentioned is the overblown Namor/table incident and his loss to Magneto in HoM which is not canon to the 616 version of the character. It's a gag that ran it's course a long time ago. Villains are used to make the heroes overcome great odds via some grandiose scheme and the cycle repeats. It doesn't make the villains weak, it's just ...
... blah blah blah blah blah. Table FTW.
Just kidding - you make good points and I've made a few of those table jokes myself. The thing about villains is that the longer they are around the more defeats they have. If they are popular they keep coming back and getting defeated even more often. So they end up with a history of all these defeats, some of which are ridiculous low showings as inevitably bad writers end up in the mix. One of the few exceptions is Thanos, because even when he does get beaten, Starlin cries and comes in and retcons it due to Thanos being his pet character (and I like Thanos, I just think Starlin takes him a bit far).
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
1.) The general lowballing of Wonder Woman is something I'd like to do away with. I think it's common sense that Superman is her superior in terms of physical stats and overall power, but given her own powers, skills, and equipment, I can't see how people claim that Superman, Thor, Hulk or other bricks stomp her one-on-one. To that end, I'd also like it if people understood just how powerful (and capable of one-shotting people) the lasso is. Most people just ignore the effects it has besides the truth aspect and don't get how it works in the midst of combat.
I'd like to see less Wonder Woman threads for that very reason. Either because of a lack of interest in the character compared to says Bats & Supes, or because she is difficult to write in an interesting way, or her lack of any real classic runs and history, or just plain trying to keep her up with Superman - she seems to receive crazy power ups every second week. As soon as there is a WW vs thread it just means endless comments along the lines of
"she's immune to attack X because last week she got upgrade Y",
"she can now use attack X because she got that new power last night",
"she can speedblitz everyone before they can react because she moves as fast as light and her fighting skills are superior to everyone's",
"her shields can block any attack from anyone no matter how powerful",
"her weapons can cut anybody and instantly kill them",
"she is stronger than WWH", and
"her lasso instantly defeats any being in the universe even if they are intangible or made of mist or energy".
What's the point of using her in threads? The character has got too far away from whatever she was originally intended to be. I mean even the Hulk, Thor, and Superman have limitations and weaknesses that can be exploited in vs threads to make them interesting.
Originally posted by chomperx9
id like to destroy the non cannon excuse that fanboys use when someone shows proof when their guys gets their ass kicked.
I always thought that the rule about non-canon was sometimes too strict. Sure, in many cases the characters in 'alterniverses'/elseworlds are clearly different and should not be accepted. In situations such as Exiles, the lines are also blurred because we don't always know how similar the characters' histories are, and often they are clearly different.
But in 'What If...?' (at least the classic What Ifs), the stories were specifically stated to diverge from 'our' continuity at the exact point that the story starts - so unless shown otherwise the characters and their powers are exactly the same in that story as in the mainstream universe - and clearly that is the intention of the writer. In theory these should be able to be used as evidence.
Unfortunately in practice 'What If' was notorious for heavy PIS/CIS/bad writing scenes (Wolverine kills Silver Surfer etc) and so I guess they have to stay ignored and considered non-canon. I only wish many mainstream stories could be disregarded as non-canon for the same reason.
Originally posted by Warlord
I dissagree with that (respectfully)
I'd like to see less Wonder Woman threads for that very reason. Either because of a lack of interest in the character compared to says Bats & Supes, or because she is difficult to write in an interesting way, or her lack of any real classic runs and history, or just plain trying to keep her up with Superman - she seems to receive crazy power ups every second week. As soon as there is a WW vs thread it just means endless comments along the lines of
Note that many of these upgrades and demonstrations were literally decades ago. The only two-sorta-three upgrades I know of since '00 were her eyes, and her new lightning powers on her bracers. The sorta-three being 'her lasso can do extremely evil stuff to souls, which she won't do but Genocide will'... but come to think of it, Artemis accidentally *killed* a person using that power in the 90s, so yea, just two, and pretty minor ones.
Most of it is a lot of people are unaware of powers she's had since the very beginning. She's had the fighting skill, speed, block-all bracers, and cutting tiara for an exceedingly long time.
I don't think it's fair to criticize someone for 'new powers' that often predate the Crisis (and stuff like her fighting skill was there from day one).
Originally posted by Omega Vision
He has feats that put him on a level similar to Cap in terms of strength, they're both peak humans. As for the skill part you could argue Bats is more skilled due to his knowledge of secret and esoteric arts that Cap doesn't understand. Still I think they're about equal in terms of MA skill. In pure h2h Cap has one undeinable advantage and that's his superhuman stamina. That alone would win him most fights. That's why I liked the JLA/Avengers fight. They were evenly matched and Batman admitted that had the fight gone on long enough Cap would probably beat him.
after finishing the whole v.3 of JLA i can't remember of one strength feat that puts him in Cap's level.
perhaps in his own books there are some...