Originally posted by cdtm
We're not using crossovers.
Originally posted by cdtm
My point is despite penning Darkseids initial "loss" to Superman, he also wrote that crossover and thought highly enough of Darkseids power to have Galactus compliment 'Seid on how powerful he is, if not powerful enough to defeat him, along with one shotting Surfer.
No offense, but this is absolutely retarded as shit.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Count the number of times Darkseid has defeated Superman Post-Crisis.You are a Darkseid scholar aren't you?
There are also cases of him defeating Superman level beings but you only asked for him defeating Superman.
Originally posted by Blanket
No offense, but this is absolutely retarded as shit.
Basically, all I'm saying is Superman beating up Darkseid as written by Byrne is a pathetically low end showing by the man, and contradicts other showings from Jack Kirby's Fourth World, and a few other showings.
His average portrayal of Darkseid is a good deal higher than Supermans, so I wouldn't put much stock in that "loss" he had 'Seid suffer at Supes hands. I mean, you don't think Byrne Superman would even scratch Surfer the way Byrne had 'Seid put him down, do you?
Reject the crossover as evidence, but accept that Byrne having his version of Superman even scratch Darkseid doesn't make much sense, based on how he's written Darkseid on average...
Originally posted by cdtm
We're not using crossovers. I'm assuming one of the losses you're counting is the one Byrne wrote in Action. My point is despite penning Darkseids initial "loss" to Superman, he also wrote that crossover and thought highly enough of Darkseids power to have Galactus compliment 'Seid on how powerful he is, if not powerful enough to defeat him, along with one shotting Surfer. As a crossover it's not proof in and of itself, but it does give an indication of where Byrne places Darkseid on the power totem.So what are all four losses than?
Yes it is.
*Sigh* Again, a crossover. He writes Superman besting Darkseid but he is powerful to defeat Galactus? Lol. Crossovers allow a great deal of freedom.
Apokolips Now #1, Superman Batman #13 and #42.
Originally posted by cdtmAnd your argument as to why this is is this:
Basically, all I'm saying is Superman beating up Darkseid as written by Byrne is a pathetically low end showing by the man, and contradicts other showings from Jack Kirby's Fourth World.His average portrayal of Darkseid is a good deal higher than Supermans, so I wouldn't put much stock in that "loss" he had 'Seid suffer at Supes hands.
"I'm not using crossovers, but... this happened in a crossover."
You can see where that sounds ridiculous.
What happens in a crossover is non-canon for a reason.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yes it is.*Sigh* Again, a crossover. He writes Superman besting Darkseid but he is powerful to defeat Galactus? Lol. Crossovers allow a great deal of freedom.
Apokolips Now #1, Superman Batman #13 and #42.
Originally posted by Blanket
And your argument as to why this is is this:"I'm not using crossovers, but... this happened in a crossover."
You can see where that sounds ridiculous.
What happens in a crossover is non-canon for a reason.
Actually, rejecting crossovers out of hand doesn't make much sense, when we already reject bad writing as bad writing.. There ARE good crossovers with proper portrayals.
But as the rules are the rules, forget the crossover than. I was simply trying to point out how Byrne usually writes his Darkseid, and how it contridicts one of the key "wins" of Superman.. (And personally, I think that crossover was a well written one. Well, except for Orion getting shortchanged..)
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yes it is.*Sigh* Again, a crossover. He writes Superman besting Darkseid but he is powerful to defeat Galactus? Lol. Crossovers allow a great deal of freedom.
Apokolips Now #1, Superman Batman #13 and #42.
Read Jack Kirby's Fourth World, and see how Byrne normally writes Darkseid.
Really, given his history of writing 'Seid along with writing one of the weakest Supermen in history, what he wrote between Supes and Darkseid makes no sense.
Originally posted by cdtmIt's non-canon. Of course it should be refected regardless of writing.
Actually, rejecting crossovers out of hand doesn't make much sense, when we already reject bad writing as bad writing.. There ARE good crossovers with proper portrayals.But as the rules are the rules, forget the crossover than. I was simply trying to point out how Byrne usually writes his Darkseid, and how it contridicts one of the key "wins" of Superman.. (And personally, I think that crossover was a well written one. Well, except for Orion getting shortchanged..)
"The crossover was well written, except when Orion got destroyed."
There you go with your dubious disclaimers again.
Originally posted by Blanket
It's non-canon. Of course it should be refected regardless of writing."The crossover was well written, except when Orion got destroyed."
There you go with your dubious disclaimers again.
JLA/Avengers is considered canon, and it's still rejected.
And yes, it was well written except when Orion got destroyed? So?
Originally posted by Blanket
Considered canon to DC, not Marvel.So it wasn't well written? SS vs Orion was the only real battle of the book...
Well, there wasn't anything glaringly wrong with it.. Characters seemed fairly well written, for the most part. Galactus vs Apokolips was really well done, IMO. Given about as much trouble as you'd expect, while pressing relentlessly forward...
I probably wouldn't have had much problem with Surfer actually beating Orion if it wasn't so... one sided. He couldn't even get a break with hand to hand combat, his specialty.
At the worst, you'd think Orion could match Obliterator's performance, but the Astro Force didn't really hurt Surfer.
But outside of that, it was a fun read. Not perfect, but how many stories are?
Without CIS or PIS, Darkseid should be at his Silver Age levels and should return to an unbeaten status in his true form.
So, all of that said, Darkseid WITHOUT CIS OR PIS should be able to take the entire Avengers no sweat, let alone just Thor.
Darkseid with his CIS and/or PIS turned back on, and I cannot be sure, I guess that depends on how you think Thor stacks against Supes.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
*Defeated him with a casual handblast in their first meeting
*Bitchslapped him and forced Supes to retreat in their first chronological meeting
*Defeated him in several blows in OWAW
*Swatted him away in Cosmic Odyssey as if Superman was an annoying pest
*blasted him with a less than full power OE, sending Superman flying at such speed that it took a GL construct and Plastic-Man to slow him down
*Was owning Superman in Superman Confidential with the OE until Infinity Man showed up
*Brought Superman to his knees in the Si'ivaa story with the OE
That's just post crisis and excluding times when DS had amps.There are also cases of him defeating Superman level beings but you only asked for him defeating Superman.
- Issue? If it's a straight up win, I'll give you it, however looking at the other examples I'd like to see it for myself.
- You mean he defeated a weary Superman.
- ? Superman flies at Darkseid and Darkseid punches Superman while he was in the air flying directly at him. He did no harm to Superman at all.
- Superman Confidential #10 right? Superman stood there and tanked a constant barrage of Darkseid's Omega Beams and was fine afterwards. And this was after Clark had spent the last issue being blasted and attacked by the New Gods, including Orion and his Astro Force. And he had just fought and defeated Mantis.
This is a good showing for Clark.
- Should I count all the times Superman sends Darkseid flying? And he was unharmed was he not?
- As I recall, Darkseid was bathing mullet Superman with a constant stream of Omega Beams and Superman was standing there, tanking and resisting it (To Darkseid's surprise as not even Orion could.). He wasn't on his knees as I recall, but he did fall over a bit to the side once Darkseid stopped attacking him but Clark was undamaged.
Nothing you've mentioned (Besides the first encounter apparently.) is as concrete as the straight up beat downs Superman has given Darkseid. And I notice that a great deal of these examples are before the noticeable rise in Superman's power that took some time after his death I believe. As time went on, Superman has looked better and better against Darkseid as far as I can tell until the point he calls for quarter.
Looking at how many times Clark has tanked the Omega Beams/Effect (Noteably Adventures Of #595 for one where he shrugs 5 blasts to the chest. He didn't seem to be affected by the attack at all at one point. He also once again blocks it with Heat Vision.) I'm surprised people view it as more formidable than Heat Vision against beings like Superman or Thor at this point.
Hercules > Galactus = Thor > Superman/Silver Surfer > Stairs > Darkseid
Darkseid handled Lobo infinitely easier than Superman ever did... Lobo actually hurt his hands against stoneface's head, before getting wiped out.
Not a "direct" competition between Superman and Darkseid, but sometimes direct confrontations aren't the best way to judge who beats whom.. If that's all we went by, Martian Manhunter doesn't have a chance in hell against Supes, even though with his power set he should be one of the most formidable characters in DC...
Originally posted by cdtm
Darkseid handled Lobo infinitely easier than Superman ever did... Lobo actually hurt his hands against stoneface's head, before getting wiped out.Not a "direct" competition between Superman and Darkseid, but sometimes direct confrontations aren't the best way to judge who beats whom.. If that's all we went by, Martian Manhunter doesn't have a chance in hell against Supes, even though with his power set he should be one of the most formidable characters in DC...
It's not as if Lobo has been known to fluctuate a fair bit depending on the comic....which I'm pretty sure is the case.
Either way, direct comparisons beat indirect comparisons every time.
Martian Manhunter wouldn't stand a chance in hell against a Superman who's unlocking his mental blocks in a head to head fight. Superman simply is able to take things a level beyond John.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It's not as if Lobo has been known to fluctuate a fair bit depending on the comic....which I'm pretty sure is the case.Either way, direct comparisons beat indirect comparisons every time.
Martian Manhunter wouldn't stand a chance in hell against a Superman who's unlocking his mental blocks in a head to head fight. Superman simply is able to take things a level beyond John.
With intangibility and TP he would
Using head to head becomes problematic, when there's ample examples outside of the head to head that prove, for example, that heat vision shouldn't really block the Omega Effect.
And especially if the head to head includes a character that's been progressively watered down over the years, even as his competition was amped up (Not to mention the mental block business... Although, if you subscribe to Loebs mental block excuse, what does that say about Supermans minus the blocks vs guys like Captain Marvel, who he's always been nearly par with..?)
There's a reason why people refer to Darkseid of the last decade or so as "Jobberseid"...
