Originally posted by ScreamPaste
...when we get to comparing universes, there are too many things neither side can prove beyond doubt. ...because there's an assload of unknowns. In a proper debate, anyway.
Not knockin' anybody here but this has to be one of the truest statements said this year on this side of the forum. If this factor is ever ignored, it's not even a debate anymore.
Half these damn VG universes are largely unexplored and have no hints to actually bein' like OUR universe with trillions of galaxies. ESPECIALLY when there are fictional places that exist in the game that don't exist in real life. Now if the game gives evidence that it's 'THE' universe and not 'A' universe, that's a different story.
In canon Ultimecia was defeated by friendship.
You keep claiming this, and I'm not sure if you're just trying to troll or something as you have already admitted to, but let me just spell it out or you so that your never make this mistake again: No. She. Was. Not.
It is explained veeeery clearly by Laguna etc to anyone who has played the game (read: clearly not you), that focusing upon the bonds on friendship (not merely possessing friendship, or anyone with friends would have survived compression) would only allow the party to repel the effects of Time compression. Squall and co used it on the first attempt at time compression to survive and wade through the compressed time-lines to reach Ultimecia's era. Then they used it again, allowing them to survive when she uses full time compression and begins absorbing all time, space and existence. Focusing on your bonds of friendship only allows you to survive her best attack, you still have to deal with her other powers, as well as Squall, who that video on page 6 tells me I've been underestimating.
And as Nemebro said, they would have to wish for friendship (not to-mention actually knowing that they have to do this, even though that wouldn't really be friendship at all), then focus on that bond of friendship before Ultimecia absorbs them, which they won't be able to do given how fast she's seen absorbing entire star systems, then fight team 2, all the while resisting Time Compression. Thats Impossible.
Link may be able to do it by focusing on previous friendships if he knows to do so from the start, but Ganon won't. He gets one-shotted instantly. Then Link gets butt-raped.
Anyway, heres Ultimecia's wikia page: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ultimecia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Just showered. 😎Anyway, I started out trolling this for lulz, but let me explain my stance, because it seems the opposing side can't appreciate the humour in it.
I have not argued the power of the triforce for several reasons, the first being that it's not relevant to my argument.
Here's the deal: In canon Ultimecia was defeated by friendship. To ignore that would be as fallacious as me ignoring Ganon's weakness to holy weapons in a thread he were involved in. The triforce doesn't even need to be argued to be > Squall and co. 😐 As much of a plot device and even I'll say, a stupid weakness as it is, it is canon.
Another aspect of this, let's use final Answer's own logic against him:
Prove they are celestial bodies similsr to IRL sunsLord of the Rings has stars, and a sun and a moon, but guess what? They are not the burning balls of gas or giant hunk of rock they appear to be. LotR is essentially just a planet, even though there are visible stars.
Squall is larger than some stars on screen in FF8. Just sayin'. Debating universes in this way means the only logical possibility is a stalemate due to unknowns. Even though I personally believe Nayru alone > Ultimecia, when we get to comparing universes, there are too many things neither side can prove beyond doubt. So even if this does carry over to "who's more powerful", in this event, Nayru v.s. Ultimecia is a stalemate. .. But so is the entire trinity v.s. Ultimecia because there's an assload of unknowns. In a proper debate, anyway.
Until it carries to that point, I'm of the belief friendship > Ultimecia. If that's what Link's heart desires that's what the triforce is already granting him, and evne did so in aLttP. Hell, just having Ganon and Link on the same team seems to force the idea their old enmity is gone. 😐 Under these circumstances for Link to want them to be friends is actually more than likely. And if he wants it, the triforce grants it.
There's also no indication Ultimecia can compress the triforce or it's holders, and the triforce contains the power of Nayru, creator of time, who in proper debate of who's stronger, wopuld stalemate Ultimecia based on unknowns.
Who has greater control of time, the one who created it, or the one who compressed it? Impossible to answer. 😬
TL;DR version: Ignoring a canon weakness is badz. I r not comparing their powah.
The power of the triforce > Squall = unquestioned.
Friendship can stop Ultimecia = true.
K, her time compression was, you're missing the point.
Also, without time compression neither her or Squall are touching Link with the triforce. 😐
Edit: Also, as mentioned, it's debatable whether her time compression can even work on someone who has it, Ganon could well be immune as well.
And Link pretty literally went to the end of the earth looking for an old friend (discovered Termina as a result). That his bonds of friendship are strong is beyond debatable, with the triforce amped wish for friendship which also occured in aLttP, it's lookin' kinda bad.
Anyway, claiming either side wins based on scale of power is fallacious, as highlighted.
K, here time compression was, you're missing the point.Also, without time compression neither her or Squall are touching Link with the triforce.
Has the Triforce ever been shown to protect its holder against (Time) attacks?
Also, I'd say that absorbing all time, space and existence is better than creating time itself. Its like the difference in pushing over one domino and pushing over all the domino's at the same time whilst pushing over a cow.
Nah, base Ultimecia can still stop time and kill Link instantly, becuase screw you guys, Dissidia is soooo canon.
also:
Squall is larger than some stars on screen in FF8.
Thats becuase they were being 'compressed'. 🙂
Hell, just having Ganon and Link on the same team seems to force the idea their old enmity is gone.
No, people can work together and still hate each others guts.
And if he wants it, the triforce grants it.
Does he actually have to wish or does it just know what wants and do you know for a fact that if its the second case it would be for friendship?
And Link pretty literally went to the end of the earth looking for an old friend (discovered Termina as a result). That his bonds of friendship are strong is beyond debatable, with the triforce amped wish for friendship which also occured in aLttP, it's lookin' kinda bad.
Yeah, but he actually needs to focus on it before Ultimecia compressess (?) him. And Laguna took on an entire country for Ellone and he still got compressed.
Does he actually have to wish or does it just know what wants and do you know for a fact that if its the second case it would be for friendship?It's stated to grant whatever the wielder's heart desires.
Also, I'd say that absorbing all time, space and existence is better than creating time itself. Its like the difference in pushing over one domino and pushing over all the domino's at the same time whilst pushing over a cow.
It's stated to grant whatever the wielder's heart desires.
It didn't grant Ganon his hearts desire. And do they actually need to wish or not, stop dodging the question. 😒
That's untrue, and moot, because the triforce also contains the power of all three, not just Nayru. You seem to have missed the point of my post by a longshot. I suggest rereading it.
But I've already read it 3 times.... 🙁
And no-ones said anything about the other two (if thats what you're getting at), so I have no idea how relevent they are. But if Nayru's any indicator, Ultimecia's still >>>> them.
And do they actually need to wish or not,According to the essence of the triforce, no.
And no-ones said anything about the other two, so I have no idea how relevent they are, but if Nayru's any indicator, Ultimecia's still >>>> tehm.Alright, I'll rephrase it.
ESSENTIALLY THIS:
Powerscaling at this level results in a logical stalemate because neither side can effectively prove that their side is superior. Where Ultimecia compressed time, Nayru created it. Ultimecia didn't have Nayru pulling back on time while she pulled it the other way when she did so in her own universe. A battle between these two can have no logical conclusion. Neither side can prove their case. What happens if Nayru pulls back? Can Ultimecia still succeed? No one can know.
Din and Farore are Nayru's two sisters. Din, goddess of power, created the physical universe, and Farore, godess of courage, created life. (Nayru is goddess of Wisdom, and created time, and the laws of physics that hold the world together.)
The triforce contains the power of the entire trio, one of which would logicly stalemate Ultimecia on her own. (Neither side can prove it.) Neither side can *really* prove a victory for the trio over Ultimecia, either, but.. Well, I'd be willing to wager they win. Factor in the power of each of them is here twice, and I know where my money is.
BUT. I maintain, that logicly, this debate is still a stalemate, because neither side can effectively prove their stance.