I used to think they were the same concept and therefore would stalemate, but from what I've seen in threads, it seems the Presence is not realy omnipotent in DCU. There are things outside of its jurisdiction, things that existed independently of its will and even existed before it came to be. I'm no expert in DC cosmology though.
I am curious, however, as to whether there is a truly omnipotent being in DCU and how does the verigo seal cosmology - lucifer and hellblazer - fit into the 'mainstream' DCU. Also, there is a wall at the end of the universe in the mainstream DCU, but what about the universes that were incorporated along with wildstorm? and how do they fit into the whole thing? WS universe had its own cosmology going on and some things seem incompatible.
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
no he is not, toaa isnt a character in marvel universe, he is the writer, dont make me post the scan of stan lee being shown as toaa
It should be noted I don't believe PM=Presence.
Originally posted by Blanket
Primal Monitor stalemates.The Presence gets molestered apparently.
Judging from arguments I've seen to put PM above the Presence. The funny thing is, that these same arguments are what Marvel 'fanboys' used to put TOAA above The Presence in the first place... hilarious.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Which arguments do you refer to? The PM's claim to power is that according to one interpretation a Supreme Being grew inside of him along with an entire reality and he scarcely noticed.
Would that supreme being be the presence and the dcu? Are there other realities then? would they fall outside of the presence's jurisdiction?
Originally posted by Omega VisionThat the Presence was limited to a multiverse, and didn't have power outside of it.
Which arguments do you refer to? The PM's claim to power is that according to one interpretation a Supreme Being grew inside of him along with an entire reality and he scarcely noticed.
And scarcely notice is a funny enough statement, considering TOAA has only acknowledged Thanos, the F4, and Spider Man to my recollection, out of the apparently infinite multiverses.
Originally posted by 753
Would that supreme being be the presence and the dcu? Are there other realities then? would they fall outside of the presence's jurisdiction?
Originally posted by Blanket
That the Presence was limited to a multiverse, and didn't have power outside of it.And scarcely notice is a funny enough statement, considering TOAA has only acknowledged Thanos, the F4, and Spider Man to my recollection, out of the apparently infinite multiverses.
Originally posted by Omega VisionLucifer, Presence, and Elaine. Ignoring the smaller dimensions which would still equate into a multiverse...
According to FC the Primal Monitor was all that existed until at some point reality (story) grew inside of His body. He created the original Monitor to explore said reality.According to Lucifer there are other realities (Lucifer's creation) and possibly even a third reality created by the Presence after leaving his original reality assuming he fancied a second try at the whole Creation jazz, there are also other realms like the Dreaming and the Monitor World seen in FC. Right now according at least to Lucifer the original Presence and Lucifer are both wandering the Overvoid (the PM's body) now that they've left the original creation of the Presence. When the Presence referenced outside forces that shaped him it can be retroactively taken to refer to the Primal Monitor and the other Monitors like Mandrakk.
Although I find it interesting that according to TOAA and Presence stalemating, that this would indirectly mean that DC has a character that is infinity times greater than all of Marvel...
Originally posted by Blanket
Lucifer, Presence, and Elaine.
That doesn't make him the lord over 'as much' as TOAA. Hell, that doesn't even make him the lord over those... considering you're taking the Vertigo canon, then he can't be over Lucifer, and Elaine's.Although I find it interesting that according to TOAA and Presence stalemating, that this would indirectly mean that DC has a character that is infinity times greater than all of Marvel...
Originally posted by Blanket
Lucifer, Presence, and Elaine. Ignoring the smaller dimensions which would still equate into a multiverse...
That doesn't make him the lord over 'as much' as TOAA. Hell, that doesn't even make him the lord over those... considering you're taking the Vertigo canon, then he can't be over Lucifer, and Elaine's.Although I find it interesting that according to TOAA and Presence stalemating, that this would indirectly mean that DC has a character that is infinity times greater than all of Marvel...
If they do stalemate, then yes there would still be PM, but it makes more sense to equate TOAA to PM as they are really above all.
Originally posted by Colossus-Big CAlthough that sounds ridiculously retarded, it is probably the smartest thing you've posted.
so mxy is grater than the primal moniter? as he destroyed and recreated the omniverse(PMs body) many times?
Best not to think like that though, because you'll end up with the same confusion that you end up with thinking about the Primal Monitor.
Originally posted by 753That's what I was thinking.
If they do stalemate, then yes there would still be PM, but it makes more sense to equate TOAA to PM as they are really above all.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
It should be noted I don't believe PM=Presence.
"Morrison: Yeah, it's a bit of that. It's also the idea that they're like angels as well. For me, the cool, essential idea of all stories being real creates this great cosmology to play with. It's the notion that the white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, well that's God or The Source. In the white page, or the void, anything can happen, everything is possible.
In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. [...]And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there.
It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse."
http://uk.comics.ign.com/articles/950/950703p2.html
So the Presence and the Overvoid/Source (which is the mind of the Primal Monitor) are one and the same. It had a multiverse growing inside of it and created angels/monitors to investigate this multiverse.