Bowser vs Cloud

Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
No, maybe not enough to kill him in Galaxy, but he has in other games. Bowser's power fluctuates a lot from game to game, it's never really been consistant. Yes, Bowser was still alive after he fell in, but stumbled steps is an indicative of pain too. Walking out of it was a pretty good feat, but saying that he didn't get hurt by it at all doesn't make sense. Just because we couldn't see a scratch on him doesn't mean he wasn't hurt from the fight, thats a pretty big assumption.
Knowing that the actual supernova blast wouldn't have killed him is too. After the blast, we don't actually see Bowser until after they all were saved. Mario may not have been sucked in at that exact moment, but it being a black hole, it would have been inevitable w/o the Lumas intervening, reversing the black hole. Also, after they were saved by the stars, and Rosalia tells Mario that when stars die their dust is spread across the galaxy creating new galaxies, etc. She also says that all new life carries the essence of the stars.. even all of you. Everyone of them would have died if it wasn't for the stars intervention, they spared their lives, even Bowser's life.

lmao.... yeah I know that he couldn't have done anything to save her if he wanted to, I just found it funny as hell that he completely ignored her pleas when the Luma flew out. I have a very random and sick sense of humor, i couldn't help myself. It's just the expression on his face when it happened... I thought to myself " oh no, I have to save Peach before we get sucked in.... ooooo shiny" 😱

Actually, most of the fight would suggest dizziness. You spin attack him and he goes sliding across the planet in a spin, hit him again, he goes in the other direction spinning even faster, one more time to spin faster again, and then you hit him a last time to knock him into the air.

This part is incorrect. We see him standing on the planet he put there after he walks dizzily to that edge. Then the camera zooms out to the planet's explosion which leads to the Black Hole.

The rest of that is pretty irrelevant.

Okay, Supernova is classified as a gravity attack, not any other element. Further, its effect is to reduce the target to 1/10 of their hitpoints, and is actually incapable of killing anything at all, like most gravity attacks. This is incredibly underwhelming, and a very clear use of COOLFORCE.

Further, Mario could not hurt Bowser in SMG, he won by to BFRing Bowser into a star. Said star then Supernova'd, formed a Black Hole, and then the Lumas caused a new Big Bang, thus forming a new Galaxy. Bowser was in the middle of it.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Actually, most of the fight would suggest dizziness. You spin attack him and he goes sliding across the planet in a spin, hit him again, he goes in the other direction spinning even faster, one more time to spin faster again, and then you hit him a last time to knock him into the air.

This part is incorrect. We see him standing on the planet he put there after he walks dizzily to that edge. Then the camera zooms out to the planet's explosion which leads to the Black Hole.

The rest of that is pretty irrelevant.

Yeah, I know how you beat Bowser in to game, I've beaten it too. I never said that he wasn't dizzy, I just said that it might not have been the only factor.
I know what happens, again, I have seen the ending. How do u find this incorrect??? Enlighten me. So your saying that even without the stars saving everyone and stopping the black hole from killing them all, Bowser still would have lived?? I highly doubt that. That is what Rosalia says, it's not incorrect either. How do you know that it didn't mean the stars gave them new life too. There isn't anything in the scene to prove otherwise. After there was a supernova, black hole, etc. they all wake up like nothing ever happened. Black holes don't work that way, they suck up everything, nothing can escape. The stars saving them is the only reason that any of them are alive at the end.

Not that Bowser was already insdie the blackhole when the stars saved weveretyone else.

Yes, I know that the rest of what I said was irrelevant, I told u it was when I said it. It had nothing to do with the debate. We were talking about the cutscene, and it reminded me of it. That was just a part in it that I found funny when I played the game.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Okay, Supernova is classified as a gravity attack, not any other element. Further, its effect is to reduce the target to 1/10 of their hitpoints, and is actually incapable of killing anything at all, like most gravity attacks. This is incredibly underwhelming, and a very clear use of COOLFORCE.

Further, Mario could not hurt Bowser in SMG, he won by to BFRing Bowser into a star. Said star then Supernova'd, formed a Black Hole, and then the Lumas caused a new Big Bang, thus forming a new Galaxy. Bowser was in the middle of it.

The whole 1/10 thing also sounds like a gameplay mechanic to me. Of course they wouldn't make a move that could kill everyone in one shot in a RPG, unless the characters weren't at a high enough lvl to survive one, that would make the game unbeatable. Supernova can kill enemies in Dissidia, it isn't just a gravity attack. Stop making me repeat this.

An over sized turtle surviving a supernova, black hole, and a big bang as you guys insist on claiming, by himself, and waking up on another planet completely unharmed is TOONFORCE to me. Better yet, the whole Mario Galaxy, and any other Mario game could be ruled out as TOONFORCE. Using COOLFORCE on Cloud when the fight is against Bowser is a poor argument.

I know, i know, I know.. again repetition. If Mario isn't able to hurt Bowser, then his punches wouldn't have done anything to him. He would have ran Mario through if Mario's attacks couldn't do anything to him. I've played the game I've seen what happens. Just because Bowser was in the middle of it still doesn't disprove that the stars saved everyone, including Bowser, at the end.

Just because Bowser was in the middle of it still doesn't disprove that the stars saved everyone, including Bowser, at the end.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Actually does. See, if you get sucked into a black hole, and THEN a bunch of stars save everyone else from your fate, you still got sucked in, and survived.

But he only survived it because the stars brought him back too

But he only survived it because the stars brought him back too

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
He was still inside a black hole without dying. Cloud could never, ever, hope to damage somethign that can survive that.

Damn this is starting to get old......

There is no prove that he did not die when he was in there, were you in there with him, did he tell you this himself? After all of the stars saved them all, Bowser included, Rosalie clearly says that ALL NEW LIFE carries the essence of the stars, even ALL OF YOU..

The ending could have very easily meant that they all died in it, hell Bowser could have even died after the supernova, before the star he was on turned into a black hole. But because of the stars intervention with the black hole they were given new life when the galaxy was re made. It certainly wouldn't be within the stars power to do so, considering in the game they create new life. There really isn't anything that you can use in the cut scene to argue against the possibility of this happening. You don't see Bowser until after the Galaxy was remade

You don't just survive a black hole and wake up up on a planet because of your durability. In no plausible way does this make sense.
The only clear durability feat I see from the end of the game that can work in a thread is that he fell into the star, and was still able to walk himself out. There is no proof or feat that he survived this on his own, without the help of the stars.

If I remember correctly you were determined to not make Cloud's Mega-flare feat from AC cannon because you said that Aeris had helped him survive it. Tell me how this Bowser > galactic destuction feat your trying to use is any different than that? he DID have outside help from the stars. Without them, Bowser, Mario, Peach, and the rest of the galaxy that was getting sucked into the black hole would not have survived, and there is no feat you can use from Galaxy saying there is.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Okay, Supernova is classified as a gravity attack, not any other element. Further, its effect is to reduce the target to 1/10 of their hitpoints, and is actually incapable of killing anything at all, like most gravity attacks. This is incredibly underwhelming, and a very clear use of COOLFORCE.

Further, Mario could not hurt Bowser in SMG, he won by to BFRing Bowser into a star. Said star then Supernova'd, formed a Black Hole, and then the Lumas caused a new Big Bang, thus forming a new Galaxy. Bowser was in the middle of it.

TOONFORCE

Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
Damn this is starting to get old......

There is no prove that he did not die when he was in there, were you in there with him, did he tell you this himself? After all of the stars saved them all, Bowser included, Rosalie clearly says that ALL NEW LIFE carries the essence of the stars, even ALL OF YOU..

You're suggesting something, but what it is I'm not sure of. It looks like you either think the Lumas brought Bowser back to life with that first sentence. Or you think the explosion created a new Bowser with the exact same specifications as the old one in a matter of moments.

Both of them would have to be pretty wrong.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
You're suggesting something, but what it is I'm not sure of. It looks like you either think the Lumas brought Bowser back to life with that first sentence. Or you think the explosion created a new Bowser with the exact same specifications as the old one in a matter of moments.

Both of them would have to be pretty wrong.

Basically what I'm saying is prove to me how Bowser could ever survive a supernova and a black hole all on his own. The stars clearly helped him and the others in the end. You only seem to notice what happens to Bowser on the star that turns into a supernova, and that he is with Peach and Mario in the end. There is no explanation in the scene that he was alive, or dead, from the time the star exploded to the time when they all woke up in a completely new galaxy. Earlier in the thread, ScreamPaste posted that Cloud's feat of going right through Bahumut's Mega-flare wasn't cannon here because he believed that Cloud wouldn't of survived it because of Aeris showing up while he was in there and helping him with magic. Please explain to me how this is any different.

The entire solar system being destroyed in the cut scene is completely irrelevant. It was an illusion(I haven't denied this at all), not because it destroyed their universe, but because in the ff7 universe they live on Gia, not Earth. That cut scene had nothing to do with Gia blowing up, but yet the supernova spell did hurt the FF party, and the developers did say he attack has the power of real supernova, even though the cut scene had nothing to do with Gia. I was just a simulation they used with a very complex equation of our solar system blowing up.

I guess the point that I am getting at is that both games don't explain exactly how these things happen, but both of them are very questionable, considering that they don't explain very much about how the spell can hurt Cloud and the others with a cut scene that is marked as an illusion, or how a cut Bowser could have survived his so called feat, without the stars help. If they weren't their to save him then I highly doubt Bowser could escape a black hole on his own.

I find your arguments a little biased that the LLLC is convinced that Bowser's is cannon, but Sephiroth's isn't.... you've already told me that you wasn't an ff fan.

I'm tired of talking about the Supernova's, this has gone on for who knows how many pages now? Even with the feat of tanking a supernova and a black hole, Bowser isn't immune to Clouds magic. I don't care what biased remark you post after this says, Bowser can't stop his spells from working on him. He could in the RPG, he had specific equipment that blocked them from working, but that Bowser doesn't apply to this thread. The Bowser from Galaxy is completely open for Cloud to attack.

*Cloud casts stop, rendering Bowser defenseless, and spams him with demi and drain until he dies*

Cloud wins

Cloud wins 😄 /thread

So yeah, you are trying to essentially argue something that cannot be proven. In order for Bowser to not survive that Supernova on his own, he would have to have been killed. And if he was killed, the Lumas would have had to do one of two things:

1. Create a brand new Bowser with the same size and memory. Keep in mind the only powers Lumas are shown to have is limited transformation capabilities and growing into Stars, Planets and Galaxies.

2. Bring life back to a lifeless body. Which, since it wasn't completely disintegrated, is still more durable than Cloud can ever hope to damage.

To me both are incredibly silly. At the very least, Bowser took the Supernova. With the rest of it not being ignored/debated, he took a Black Hole.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
So yeah, you are trying to essentially argue something that cannot be proven. In order for Bowser to not survive that Supernova on his own, he would have to have been killed. And if he was killed, the Lumas would have had to do one of two things:

1. Create a brand new Bowser with the same size and memory. Keep in mind the only powers Lumas are shown to have is limited transformation capabilities and growing into Stars, Planets and Galaxies.

2. Bring life back to a lifeless body. Which, since it wasn't completely disintegrated, is still more durable than Cloud can ever hope to damage.

To me both are incredibly silly. At the very least, Bowser took the Supernova. With the rest of it not being ignored/debated, he took a Black Hole.

Call them silly if you want too, there is still no proof that he could have survived it on his own. The stars clearly saved everyone at the end of the game, including Bowser.
Your also ignoring the other points that I have made in Cloud's favor.
Again, the LLLC seems pretty biased towards Bowser.

1.) Earlier in the thread, ScreamPaste posted that Cloud's feat of going right through Bahumut's Mega-flare wasn't cannon here because he believed that Cloud wouldn't of survived it on his own because of Aeris showing up while he was in there and helping him with magic. Yet, Bowser was saved by the stars, and your convinced that it is. Please explain to me how this is any different. The stars are the reason that everyone is alive at the end of the game, Mario and Peach would have been sucked in with Bowser w/o the stars intervening, and all three of them would have died because the black hole wouldn't have been stopped.
2.) They are convinced that no matter what Cloud does, he can not beat Bowser because he survived in the end of galaxy, completely ignoring the fact that Bowser didn't survive it on his own. It was the stars that saved them in the end, and there is no proof that Bowser could of tanked it on his own, without their intervention. Yet, anything we say that would help Cloud win the fight is useless because of this feat that your so desperately clinging to not be proven wrong. Why? I'm not sure, probably because there is no proof that Bowser could have survived it on his own, without the stars intervention, and you know it.
3.)Regaurdless of whether Bowser could or could not, survive a black hole he is completely open to Cloud's magic, there is no feat you can use to claim Bowser is immune to them.....this is the SMG Bowser, not the SM RPG. Cloud could simply beat him by casting stop, and spaming him with spells like demi and drain until he dies, or is too weak for the fight to go on. Or he could just cast mini or toad on him, and throw him in the lava. The turtle/dragon hybrid, or what ever you want to classify him as, has some really impressive heat resistance, but he wouldn't if he were turned into a toad. Heat is usually a bad thing for them to be around, considering that the sunlight will fry them if their skin drys up. They need moisture, or they die. If Cloud threw him into the lava when he was a toad, and lava is A LOT hotter than sunlight, wouldn't it kill him? There are many magic spells, and status effects he could use to beat Bowser, these were just a couple suggestions. Cloud is going to win this debate, there is nothing you can do or say to change that. SMG's Bowser has no feat to say that he is immune to any of Cloud's spells.

You're ignoring an incredibly large difference. Aeris shows up before Cloud hits the Mega Flare and extends a hand. The Lumas save everyone well after the Supernova is over and the Black Hole has been formed. For the Lumas to save Bowser, one of the two things I posted previously would have to have happened.

1. See above. Mario and Peach's presence is irrelevant.

2. See #1.

3. Spells won't help when you can't damage him anyway.

No Cloud is already in the Mega-flare.

Still different, at least. Aeris was at least present at a time when she could have helped Cloud survive.

Where she like others have said used Fury Brand. Either way he was inside the Mega-flare which we all know is powerful and destructive before she appeared.

Where she like others have said used Fury Brand. Either way he was inside the Mega-flare which we all know is powerful and destructive before she appeared.

Got shot. Got injured. Aeris pulled him out of the Mega Flare and supplied him with magic. Not a feat.

Also, Mega Flare itself doesn't really have much in the way of feats as far as I know. The Flare Cloud went through didn't do anythign to the city below.