FF8 Party v.s. Ganondorf

To me its making sense that the Light Spirit can get rid of Twilight, Midna being a weakened being of Twilight couldnt stand before one in her 'solid' form. (Unlike Zant who is in a more powerful state then the normal Twili)

Right now only hanging on that same point. Back to that; the way it moves compared to Midna under TK, [the movement would be the same] the light only being exaggerated on her close up, [so there wasn't an attack] Lanayru saved the two. [showing that it had controle of its own powers] Can drop if you want to, this isnt relevant without BRF.

Originally posted by BloodRain
To me its making sense that the Light Spirit can get rid of Twilight, Midna being a weakened being of Twilight couldnt stand before one in her 'solid' form. (Unlike Zant who is in a more powerful state then the normal Twili)

While I see as strange that she didn't take her shadow form. Even weakened, Midna was fine in light when in that form. The fact that she didn't immediately become a shadow points to something else being at play.

Right now only hanging on that same point. Back to that; the way it moves compared to Midna under TK, [the movement would be the same] the light only being exaggerated on her close up, [so there wasn't an attack] Lanayru saved the two. [showing that it had controle of its own powers] Can drop if you want to, this isnt relevant without BRF.

Unless the snake isn't actually Lanayru. All of the light spirits are pretty much just balls of light with an animal motif. I can maybe accept Zant wasn't controlling Kanaryu's powers, but there was still some measure of TK in play.

The only reason you guys are even thinking about conceding a little bit on the TK point is because Blood Rain is getting all BT on you here and not giving up even though it's 100% obvious to anyone who watched the cutscene what happened in it. Zant using but a smidgen of Ganon's power TK'd and raped Link, Midna, and Lanaryu. In fact he probably just let them get away thinking that Midna would soon die, and Link would forever be stuck in wolf form.

@Scenario: That or she like that vid shows she cant stand it, does make sense. ''Unless the snake isn't actually Lanayru'' Seems highly unlikely.

@Cyner: Urm, thanks? Hey ive already said I don't mind dropping this if they wanted too 😐 And there's been quite a few 'not giving up on the obvious' going on lately so don't go throwing that around.

Originally posted by Cyner
The only reason you guys are even thinking about conceding a little bit on the TK point is because Blood Rain is getting all BT on you here and not giving up even though it's 100% obvious to anyone who watched the cutscene what happened in it. Zant using but a smidgen of Ganon's power TK'd and raped Link, Midna, and Lanaryu. In fact he probably just let them get away thinking that Midna would soon die, and Link would forever be stuck in wolf form.

Ha ha. From now on I'm calling that "Pulling a BT".

Originally posted by BloodRain
@Scenario: That or she like that vid shows she cant stand it, does make sense. ''Unless the snake isn't actually Lanayru'' Seems highly unlikely.

If she turned into a shadow and was still affected, maybe. As it was, she didn't do something that seems to happen automatically in this one instance.

As for the snake, it disappeared when Lanayru was injured and left nothing but a little ball. The ball is Lanayru.

Unless that shadow form was the only thing keeping her safe from the spirit (not being in her twili state so not being effected by it) Whether he was apparently controlling the body or the ball it still wouldn't make it move in the way it did.

Originally posted by TacDavey

This "logical conclusion" is simply based on blind opinion, theres no logic at all in this conclusion. Its good reasoning because theres no indication that he was slashed at all, its a lot better reasoning than the one that leads you to belive Ganons flesh and robes make a hollow clank like steel striking steel when their struck. Youve provided nothing, only brought up how graphics do not always display, this does not actually counter anything because Graphics not being perfect does not automatically argue that in this case Ganon was still struck.

Ganon can do it, therefore possibility.

Its not logical to me that Ganon takes so much time threatening and talking when he could just have beheaded Link from the get go but he does it. Just like how he somehow blocks Links sword.

You dont notice much at all, you may be one to try and claim PIS for all events but you would be using it incorectly. PIS works in a lot of arguments.

Actually no, I am pointing out thats what your entire list of arguments are based on. A big fat "maybe". Your evidence does not actually support you, we dont see it.

Go find an argument rather than blundering about your theories of "logic" based on scenes that do not back you up. Were looking for facts, not your opinion on what is a more logical conclusion.

Admiral Ackbar underestimated the Dark Side of the force, hence why the Death star just blew Home one in half....

Originally posted by The Scenario

A ton at least? not necesserily, we dont actually see whats touching Ganon, blocks of that size would more than likely support eachother. Theres no crushing weight, he only happens to have the strength to break out of what is possibly a few blocks, its not impressive.

Link was moving extremely slowly himself tbh, as well as predictably.

😆 your getting really desperate now, you want proof the meteor spell summons actual meteors? I want proof that Links sword was not made out of paper or that the blocks on top of Ganon were not made of cardboard! 🙄

theres no indication that Ganons skin is tougher than stone, and what cutscene? asI said it just looks like the gameplay manouver, the cutscene starts after Ganons head gets stuck.

You have your times wrong, theres a short cutscene at about 3:00 where he slaps Zelda but its all gameplay until then.

Oh I see, you choose something thats not the fiery head, claim it looks like fire and try and use it as evidence that Ganons head is not fiery.... 😕 Ganons head actually looks like fire.

No, please go back and actually reply to my post instead of simply stating "it doesnt mean anything", the only thing that does not mean anything is your illogical reaching opinions based on what you want to be a feat for Ganondorf.

Another possibility is that a child swinging a sword is not strong enough, a sword that may actually be pretty blunt due to not cutting the robes, not sure I have seen it do anything such as slice without being enhanced by magic. The strike does not move Ganondorf either. Was it not argued WW Link was a 10+ tonner by someone at some point? lol, he cant move Ganons weight...hes not much larger in that scene than a man.

Theres no indication of Ganon being quick at all, hes shown to be able to cast a couple of spells fairly quickly but the crystal attack is unkown, perhaps a minutes cast time at least considering thats how long she undisguised as shiek. And I have shown the FF cast times, ignoring my vids does not hold your argument.

Spell created meteors, meteors describe a specific object thats real in our world.

Hell yes, its pretty slow, a few seconds to chargeup on a predictable location that he has to be hovering over....your calling whats pretty much just a lunging punch a "death touch"? lol......the FF team are not going to be taken down by a punch, a pretty featless one at that.

Until you stop trying to overhype abilities and reach fro them to be stronger than their actually shown to be this argument is going nowhere. Feats have been shown, and Ganons are wanting badly. Link stops moving and you automatically assume hes paralyzed? again.... 🙄

Your assuming (interesting how much you actually assume) that he cast the spell as soon as he started speaking and not before....theres no indication of this. Also I like how you dodge the fact the portal appears in the middle of the room, on top of the triforce symbol, it covers exactly the same space as the circle on the ground. This all points ot the fact Ganon cant actually summon it where he wants to, and no, nothing points out it being a hole in the ground, not even close. It actually slowly sucks in Ganons own creation....no FF member, hell a normal human would be daft enough to stand over a portal thats slowly trying to devour them.

Cyner blundered the point but probably not much more of a blunder than you would make of it.

Originally posted by Cyner
The only reason you guys are even thinking about conceding a little bit on the TK point is because Blood Rain is getting all BT on you here and not giving up .

Originally posted by TacDavey
Ha ha. From now on I'm calling that "Pulling a BT".

Really, its quite flattering to be the symbol of persistance against blind fanboyism and fanon as well as pushing those fanboys into concession but bringing my name brought up in arguments when I am hardly present is a little obsessive dont you think?

Also Zant has shown he can only Tk one being at a time, he stops to Tk Link, then Midna. He only uses a TK blast on the light spirit to knock it back, theres no indicating TK was used on the lightspirit to make it move. As BloodRain said, its movements do not look alike to how Zant Tks.

Originally posted by Burning thought
symbol of persistance against blind fanboyism and fanon

Also Zant has shown he can only Tk one being at a time, he stops to Tk Link, then Midna. He only uses a TK blast on the light spirit to knock it back, theres no indicating TK was used on the lightspirit to make it move. As BloodRain said, its movements do not look alike to how Zant Tks.

1. Lol'd.

2. False.

Originally posted by Burning thought
This "logical conclusion" is simply based on blind opinion, theres no logic at all in this conclusion. Its good reasoning because theres no indication that he was slashed at all, its a lot better reasoning than the one that leads you to belive Ganons flesh and robes make a hollow clank like steel striking steel when their struck. Youve provided nothing, only brought up how graphics do not always display, this does not actually counter anything because Graphics not being perfect does not automatically argue that in this case Ganon was still struck.

Blind opinion? Hardly. We have seen all the possible explanations for what happened in that scene and we have used logic and reasoning to decide which is the most probable. You seem to want to base things only on 100% fact, but you can't. We don't know anything 100%. We don't know 100% that Squall didn't dream up all the events of FF8 and he was in reality a fat drunk guy napping in a bathroom somewhere. But even without 100% knowing, we DO know for a FACT this is not the case, simply because when you look at it as a possibility, it doesn't hold up logically. Your possible explanation for what happened does not hold up logically. Thus, we are left with the most probable explanation by far.

It's not blind opinion, it's logic.

And here's some more. This seems to be your argument:

P1: All scenes that do not show a feat directly on screen are scenes we cannot know what happened.
P2: Ganon getting attacked with the sword is a scene that does not show a feat directly on screen.
C: Ganon getting attacked with the sword is a scene we cannot know what happened.

This argument is valid. The problem is, it isn't sound. Not all the premises are true, in this case Premise 2 is false. I have already shown it was false in a past post.

If you remember, we know that Squall lives at the end of FF8. We KNOW he lives. Not 100%, but FAR beyond reasonable doubt. Therefore, we have a feat that we KNOW for a fact happened, yet did not come up directly on screen, and thus premise 2 is false.

Aside from that, it's just illogical to say we can't know what happened because it didn't directly come up on screen. Any intro level logic student will tell you that, in fact, almost anyone who passed kindergarten will tell you that.

As for why your explanation wasn't logical... Do I even really need to go back over this? You claim that Ganon pulled out his sword, put it away, and then almost instantly pulled it back out again.

Not logical. It just doesn't make sense.

Your claims that my stance are illogical are also refuted.

You claim his robes were not torn, and thus he couldn't have slashed at them. But this is not so, since no clothing in the Legend of Zelda universe shows any wear or tear. When Ganon is slashed at the end of the game, his robes are not torn either.

You claim the sound effect used shows he didn't slash his skin. Again, not true. What sound effect would you have liked to hear? A sword going through flesh? That wouldn't make sense, since the sword didn't go through flesh at all. The sword hit something it could not pass through. So we get a clang sound effect.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You dont notice much at all, you may be one to try and claim PIS for all events but you would be using it incorectly. PIS works in a lot of arguments.

PIS works is some very rare cases, but it does not work in most of what I've been seeing it applied to. Every time someone wants to take a feat away from their opposing character, they label the feat PIS. It's a cop out.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Actually no, I am pointing out thats what your entire list of arguments are based on. A big fat "maybe". Your evidence does not actually support you, we dont see it.

But I have already shown that we don't have to see it to know that it's true. You are basing you claims off of the idea that we cannot use logic. You are claiming we MUST see something to know it happened. That we MUST have 100% god certainty that something happened to claim it happened. But you're wrong. I've shown you are wrong not only in this very post, but in multiple ones past. You don't have to SEE something to KNOW something. End of story.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Go find an argument rather than blundering about your theories of "logic" based on scenes that do not back you up. Were looking for facts, not your opinion on what is a more logical conclusion.

Again, not my opinion. It's logic. Your explanation wasn't logical. Nor was your argument that we need visual conformation to know something. We don't. Sorry.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Admiral Ackbar underestimated the Dark Side of the force, hence why the Death star just blew Home one in half....

Home One was filled with little nanobots that travel along energy beams back up to your Death Stars main core and self destruct. Looks like it was Admiral Ackbar's turn to set a trap.

Originally posted by Burning thought

A ton at least? not necesserily, we dont actually see whats touching Ganon, blocks of that size would more than likely support eachother. Theres no crushing weight, he only happens to have the strength to break out of what is possibly a few blocks, its not impressive.

You missed the point. Are you aware that it takes some durability to break stone with your face? This video quite clearly shows that if you hit Ganondorf with stone, the stone will break before he does. Strength does play a part, but it doesn't matter how good your muscles are if your skeleton can't take the stress of hitting something. Seriously, you could lift a block of stone easily and still break your hand punching it. That's because your hand isn't as durable as stone. That's my point. Ganondorf has enough durability to break stone with his body without injury. I was simply estimating the weight of the stone here, however. Perhaps if Screampaste could get me an accurate figure on the wieght of that giant cube of stone directly on top of Ganondorf, this could work better. The weight doesn't exactly matter, either.

Give me a feat of the FF party breaking stone. Until then, they can't harm Ganondorf's stronger than stone body.

YouTube video

Scream, if you're watching, do you feel like calculating this weight? It no longer matters, but having a weight might increase Ganondorf's durability.

Link was moving extremely slowly himself tbh, as well as predictably.

You're talking about Link being disarmed? Again, you missed the point. I noted that it took Ganondorf some time to create swords. Here, you're assuming that the creating swords is instant (because that would benefit your argument more than if you assumed it was slow, like you always do. Interesting.) Regardless of this, the time it took to form the swords wasn't fast enough to block Wind Waker Link's attack.

😆 your getting really desperate now, you want proof the meteor spell summons actual meteors? I want proof that Links sword was not made out of paper or that the blocks on top of Ganon were not made of cardboard! 🙄

Cardboard doesn't break like that. It's a bit more malleable than stone, as it has some give. It would have torn or simply flew away if Ganondorf hit it like that. Further, it was formerly a piece of Ganon's Tower, and cardboard can't take that kind of weight. It's also easy to burn, and those flaming rocks would have set it on fire. Stone is a common building material of that time, and so far all evidence points to the blocks being stone.

On the Master Sword, it has the Evil's Bane property, so even if it was paper it would still harm Ganondorf. However, statements surrounding it state that the Master Sword was forged by the gods. You can't forge paper. It has also been tempered by a pair of Dwarven swordsmiths, resulting in a blade of tempered steel.

Also, good job avoiding the subject. 👆 You couldn't refute me or argue the point, so you tried to distract me by asking me to prove something stupid. You claimed that the spell summoned real meteors and have failed to back that up at every turn. You have also failed to present any valid feats. The burden of proof is still on you, and ignoring it won't make it go away. :/

theres no indication that Ganons skin is tougher than stone, and what cutscene? asI said it just looks like the gameplay manouver, the cutscene starts after Ganons head gets stuck.

YouTube video

It's at 4:48, my mistake. There were a tone of vids in that post.

You have your times wrong, theres a short cutscene at about 3:00 where he slaps Zelda but its all gameplay until then.

See above.

Oh I see, you choose something thats not the fiery head, claim it looks like fire and try and use it as evidence that Ganons head is not fiery.... 😕 Ganons head actually looks like fire.

I see you're still ignoring things that don't support you. Both of those were Ganon, and niether displayed the traits of fire. I don't even know why you're still arguing this. Did you forget and just keep arguing because I disagreed? 🙄

No, please go back and actually reply to my post instead of simply stating "it doesnt mean anything", the only thing that does not mean anything is your illogical reaching opinions based on what you want to be a feat for Ganondorf.

Instead of reading just one sentence, try reading the rest of the post. I hear that helps when you want to make a point. I already addressed your illogical reasoning and crushed it. Since you didn't actually respond to my post, I am forced to assume you either didn't read it or once again ignored it. Here it is again, but for your benefit I opted not to include me saying it doesn't mean anything:

You're still assuming 1) They have greater weapons, 2) They are more experienced, and 3) They have fought things more powerful than Ganondorf. If you want to claim A>B so A>C, you must first establish A>B, or the entire argument falls apart.

Better luck next time 👆

Another possibility is that a child swinging a sword is not strong enough, a sword that may actually be pretty blunt due to not cutting the robes, not sure I have seen it do anything such as slice without being enhanced by magic. The strike does not move Ganondorf either. Was it not argued WW Link was a 10+ tonner by someone at some point? lol, he cant move Ganons weight...hes not much larger in that scene than a man.

Not strong enough to cut through robes but strong enough to shove a sword through skin tougher than stone? Rather illogical there. Also, you're assuming the sword is blunt. It was still enhanced by magic in that scene. So even when it was powered up, it still didn't cut Ganondorf's robes, so your argument that it should have cut his robes when we didn't see Link hit him falls apart.

Also, WW Link has Power Bracelets. He could lift 10 tons.

Theres no indication of Ganon being quick at all, hes shown to be able to cast a couple of spells fairly quickly but the crystal attack is unkown, perhaps a minutes cast time at least considering thats how long she undisguised as shiek. And I have shown the FF cast times, ignoring my vids does not hold your argument.

If you go by when he stops talking to cast, it's not that long at all. Also, stop posting gameplay vids and I'll stop disregarding them as irrelevant.

Spell created meteors, meteors describe a specific object thats real in our world.

Spell created =/= real. Nothing suggests they are real. Do all electricty based spells travel at lightning speed?

Hell yes, its pretty slow, a few seconds to chargeup on a predictable location that he has to be hovering over....your calling whats pretty much just a lunging punch a "death touch"? lol......the FF team are not going to be taken down by a punch, a pretty featless one at that.

Less than a second to charge and then punch. Who said it had to be on the ground? Shockwave punch to the face will take down FF. Now since you seem to think that's slow, FF must have some impressive speed feats that make it look slow. Do they? No? Then stop saying it. 🙄

You are aware that the party has zero feats that will protect them from the "lunging punch," right? You claim it won't take them down. Now back this up with evidence or FF loses right there. And stop claiming that a touch that disintegrated a guy is featless.

Until you stop trying to overhype abilities and reach fro them to be stronger than their actually shown to be this argument is going nowhere. Feats have been shown, and Ganons are wanting badly. Link stops moving and you automatically assume hes paralyzed? again.... 🙄

Until you stop trying to underhype and reach for them to be weaker than what is actually shown to be this argument is going nowhere. Feats have been shown, and FF doesn't actually have any. Link is covered in little purple sparks of energy and stops moving and you automatically assume he's not paralyzed?
again... 🙄

In all seriousness, you have not shown that the FF has even a single feat, while I have painstakingly hunted down every video on the internet in what now seems to be a vain attempt to convince you that what I say is true. Look at this thread. You're not even arguing in the FF party's favor. You're just trying to bring down every Zelda character that exists into some warped definition of what you think they "should be."

Your assuming (interesting how much you actually assume) that he cast the spell as soon as he started speaking and not before....theres no indication of this. Also I like how you dodge the fact the portal appears in the middle of the room, on top of the triforce symbol, it covers exactly the same space as the circle on the ground. This all points ot the fact Ganon cant actually summon it where he wants to, and no, nothing points out it being a hole in the ground, not even close. It actually slowly sucks in Ganons own creation....no FF member, hell a normal human would be daft enough to stand over a portal thats slowly trying to devour them.

Eh, I don't care about this one much. Ganondorf can still pull the party into the Dark World or Twilight.

(Got a notice my post was too long. Had to delete this paragraph.)

Cyner blundered the point but probably not much more of a blunder than you would make of it.

Instead of simply saying this, why don't you back it up? Is it because you can't?

In short,

Bravo.

Scream, if you're watching, do you feel like calculating this weight? It no longer matters, but having a weight might increase Ganondorf's durability.