CIS-less: Flash vs. Silver Surfer vs. Superman vs. Thor

Originally posted by Enyalus
I think in a CIS free environment Surfer benefits the most. He's always holding back, always offered bad guys a second chance even during their fights, taking unnecessary hits, etc.

But I think if you're of the opinion that B&T Thor wasn't under Warrior's Madness and that that was what Thor is capable of when not holding back, you've gotta go with him to win this.

Otherwise, I'd pick Surfer. He's shown the speed/tracking/reactions/cosmic awareness to deal with the faster competition, plus has plenty of strength, plus has arguably the highest energy output here barring the Godblast.

That's the same case with Thor. He also constantly holds back. This has been proven multiple times even if the cost is him getting beaten around. Thor might even say his not holding back or his going at it full power but even in that kind of situation he apparently is still holding back. He just brings himself down to his opponent's level, and is going all out in the sense of being on that level if that makes sense. That's one of the ways his adapted to spending so much time around mortals.

I don't see why someone who read the event would not assume that's the case.

Barring even the Godblast I don't haven't seen evidence for Norrin to support him having a higher energy output than Thor.

Surfer/Flash
Superman
Thor

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That's the same case with Thor. He also constantly holds back. This has been proven multiple times even if the cost is him getting beaten around. Thor might even say his not holding back or his going at it full power but even in that kind of situation he apparently is still holding back. He just brings himself down to his opponent's level, and is going all out in the sense of being on that level if that makes sense. That's one of the ways his adapted to spending so much time around mortals.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't see why someone who read the event would not assume that's the case.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus [b]
Barring even the Godblast I don't haven't seen evidence for Norrin to support him having a higher energy output than Thor.

Originally posted by Enyalus

I get that. But wouldn't you agree that SS (even recently against BRB) holds back far more often and attempts to reason with his opponents? Thor'll try to do it at the start, give up, and usually own. Then there's the rare cases that doesn't work, and he'll have to stop holding back during the fight, then own. Surfer's holding back all throughout the fight, trying to talk with and reason with the enemy, etc. It's one of the reasons I don't like Surfer as much as I like Thor.

Granted. But, if you're holding B&T Thor as the CIS-less standard...may I use Uni-Lord Surfer? 😄

Multiple planet destroying blasts, destroying a solar system, powering up and causing a black hole...c'mon.

I haven't seen anyone trying to use B&T Thor... Yet.

Power output is meaningless in a Surfer/Thor confrontation. Energy absorption is where it's at.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He just brings himself down to his opponent's level, and is going all out in the sense of being on that level if that makes sense.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Barring even the Godblast I don't haven't seen evidence for Norrin to support him having a higher energy output than Thor.

blackholes are far more destructive and devastating in power than a godblast.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I get that. But wouldn't you agree that SS (even recently against BRB) holds back far more often and attempts to reason with his opponents? Thor'll try to do it at the start, give up, and usually own. Then there's the rare cases that doesn't work, and he'll have to stop holding back during the fight, then own. Surfer's holding back all throughout the fight, trying to talk with and reason with the enemy, etc. It's one of the reasons I don't like Surfer as much as I like Thor.

Thor isn't as pacifistic as Norrin true and I'm not debating that, I'm just saying that Thor also constantly holds back. Even when he says he doesn't. And most of the time he fights like more of a brick than Norrin does.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Granted. But, if you're holding B&T Thor as the CIS-less standard...may I use Uni-Lord Surfer? 😄

😬

Clarify that. Uni-Lord Surfer is usually considered Surfer after he absorbed all of that power which is like me using King Thor. Plus from what I can gather it didn't actually happen. It was sort of an in story "What If?".

Originally posted by Enyalus
Multiple planet destroying blasts, destroying a solar system, powering up and causing a black hole...c'mon.

Planet busting is something Thor can do with his strength. That doesn't impress me. Thor has one shot Beta Ray Bill with a blast, hurt Mangog and put him on his ass with a blast etc.

When has Silver Surfer destroyed a Solar System?

Yeah, Thor's never created a black hole but how much energy does it take to do so? Mjolnir's energy reserves are so deep that it has enough power to burn with the energy of half a million Suns.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mjolnir's energy reserves are so deep that it has enough power to burn with the energy of half a million Suns.

where do you pull this garbage?

Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, the Surfer/Bill fight is a poor reason to think Surfer always holds back to that degree. They (Surfer and Bill) are good friends, after all.

Originally posted by Galan007
I haven't seen anyone trying to use B&T Thor... Yet.

Originally posted by Galan007
Power output is meaningless in a Surfer/Thor confrontation. Energy absorption is where it's at.

Originally posted by Starscream M
doesn't make sense. just sounds like you're making excuses for his poor performances.

No, I'm going by what's actually happened. Thor's literally said his using his full might, and then goes on to say that he was holding back in an comic. Go back to the kids table son. The adults are talking.

Originally posted by Starscream M
can't surfer create blackholes?

blackholes are far more destructive and devastating in power than a godblast.

Black holes are more destructive simply due to their nature. They are not however more powerful.

In the end black holes are just cosmic cheese feats. Multiple beings can survive in a black hole. Those same beings would be erased by a Godblast. Norrin is a good example. Even Bill was being sucked in two different directions by black holes and I think at a point his limbs were even inside of them, but he through sheer strength and no leverage over came their pull and destroyed the machine that was creating them.

Logic says, that a being who can survive a black hole should be nigh invulnerable. That's obviously not the case.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yeah, Thor's never created a black hole but how much energy does it take to do so?

Originally posted by Galan007
An evolved Stardust easily whipped one up -- And BRB (Thor's rough equal) was more than a match for that version of 'dust. *shrugs* I don't think the ability to create a singularity has much of a bearing on a given character's overall power.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor isn't as pacifistic as Norrin true and I'm not debating that, I'm just saying that Thor also constantly holds back. Even when he says he doesn't. And most of the time he fights like more of a brick than Norrin does.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Clarify that. Uni-Lord Surfer is usually considered Surfer after he absorbed all of that power which is like me using King Thor. Plus from what I can gather it didn't actually happen. It was sort of an in story "What If?".

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
When has Silver Surfer destroyed a Solar System?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yeah, Thor's never created a black hole but how much energy does it take to do so? Mjolnir's energy reserves are so deep that it has enough power to burn with the energy of half a million Suns.

Originally posted by Galan007
An evolved Stardust easily whipped one up -- And BRB (Thor's rough equal) was more than a match for that version of 'dust. *shrugs* I don't think the ability to create a singularity has much of a bearing on a given character's overall power.

Another good example.

It shouldn't. I don't understand why anyone would be impressed by black holes at this point. Just cosmic cheese.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He's done the same to Doom, to Super Skrull, Morg, etc. Plenty of people. He always does it.

*shrugs* The omnidirectional blast scan you used was from B&T. I was just assuming....and, to be clear, I have no problems using B&T as an example of a Thor not holding back. I was simply saying barring that episode, I think Surfer takes it. 'Cause obviously, with that episode, Thor came off as much more powerful.

Agreed. I was talking about the overall match, with Flash and Superman in the mix.

B&T Thor may have been more physically capable then standard Thor, but his prowess with Mjolnir certainly didn't improve. That's why I didn't see a problem with posting a Mjolnir feat from the B&T arc as an argument for standard Thor..? If it's going to cause a fuss, we can revert to the omni-blast scans Rage posted earlier. 😛

👆 absorption ftw.

Originally posted by Starscream M
wow..galactus should just suck on mjolnir then...that would feed him for eons.

where do you pull this garbage?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

one says 'heat'.

another says 'might'.

Originally posted by Galan007
An evolved Stardust easily whipped one up -- And BRB (Thor's rough equal) was more than a match for that version of 'dust. *shrugs* I don't think the ability to create a singularity has much of a bearing on a given character's overall power.

Originally posted by Starscream M
dood...that's hyperbole. also neither scan says it has the energy of a million sons.

one says 'heat'.

another says 'might'.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Another good example.

It shouldn't. I don't understand why anyone would be impressed by black holes at this point. Just cosmic cheese.

But anywho.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I know. And I agree to an extent, although I'd add that Norrin fights without using his exotic abilities just as often as Thor does. Blasts and fists. That's about it. Just like Thor.

Thor fights with fists more often than Norrin from what I've seen though.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pretty sure its canon, and he absorbed souls, not power per se. There are two binary suns in Godwheel, so amping is a tactic. Not that I'm claiming he'd do it even without CIS. But it wasn't like B&T Thor wasn't 'drawing strength from his madness' and thus somewhat amped, either.

Nah, as I understood it, what we saw didn't actually happen. It was something that happened in Norrin's head or something akin to that. He absorbed the souls and converted them to the Power Cosmic as it was something he had more control over. Hence he was more powerful. At least that's how I remember it.

How large are the Suns? Norrin went mad trying to absorb the Sun. Besides, extra energy is pointless seeing how much power Mjolnir can absorb.

A statement made by an ignorant Bill who thought Thor was under the true Warrior Madness. Which he was not. It was a psychic malady. There was absolutely no outside power up or interference for Thor in Blood and Thunder. The Valkyrie was simply a psychic manifestation of Thor's problems with his multiple incarnations that led him deep into a dark hole of madness within himself.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Uni-Lord saga. Haha. 😮

Lol.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I didn't know that. 🙂 Do you happen to know the issue #? 'Cause that sounds cool. And if not, don't worry about it, I believe you.