Kain vs Team

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Ice Powers. Samus was falling a distance of 7000 meters, Rundus was able to use his powers to catch up to her falling long after she started simply through the use of his ice slide. Then he caught Samus and brought her back up in under a minute.

Actually, if someone could back me up with the actual numbers for that area of the game it would be nice. I'm not quite sure what they are, I just know they are in the thousands of meters.

And no, it gets separated more, which is why Kain won't be able to control it and keep his form.

ive seen the other vid where hes sliding about on ice and creating it, he didnt seem that fast tbh.

Poor assertion is poor and not backed up by anything. Also damn illogical.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Fight with Meta Ridley starts at 16,000 meters.

YouTube video

This one ends around 7000 meters, so Rundas covered ~9000 meters in 6 seconds.

One hit from Rundas is likely to simply end Kain right there. The guy can one shot spaceships.

Their falling down a shaft so aided by gravity.

Also how durable was the spaceship?

It's not illogical to assume Kain cannot retain control of mist form separated farther than it has been shown.

Rundus is not falling. And even then, he has to get back up, which he also does in a few seconds.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
It's not illogical to assume Kain cannot retain control of mist form separated farther than it has been shown.

Rundus is not falling. And even then, he has to get back up, which he also does in a few seconds.

Yes it is, Kain is controlling the mist and he is also the mist. Your trying to claim that one part of him being in another place is somehow logically going to hinder his control despite him being all of it. Who are you to caim where the central point of Kains mist is? the point where the mist is apprently going to be lost of control if it moves away from it?

I can see him falling at varying points, hes certainly not flying down that shaft half the time. At 1:04 for example he is not even moving his wings and hes just free-falling. He flies now and then but not all of it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes it is, Kain is controlling the mist and he is also the mist. Your trying to claim that one part of him being in another place is somehow logically going to hinder his control despite him being all of it. Who are you to caim where the central point of Kains mist is? the point where the mist is apprently going to be lost of control if it moves away from it?

I can see him falling at varying points, hes certainly not flying down that shaft half the time. At 1:04 for example he is not even moving his wings and hes just free-falling. He flies now and then but not all of it.

Who are you to claim he has this ability when it isn't shown?

Lol. Rundus is not the dragon. Rundus is the guy on the ice slide that saves Samus' ass.

That dragon is Meta Ridley.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Who are you to claim he has this ability when it isn't shown?

Lol. Rundus is not the dragon. Rundus is the guy on the ice slide that saves Samus' ass.

That dragon is Meta Ridley.

What ability? his mist form is shown.....

I see, no wonder I got confused.

Edit: we dont even see where he comes from, he could have been following her sooner, he could have come from another direction. looking at his speed when he arrives, hes not going that fast at all....

Actually he had already been met earlier on, on the other side of the station. He had said he was going to stay there and guard some area.

Kain has not been shown maintaing control of it when separated farther than perhaps two inches.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Actually he had already been met earlier on, on the other side of the station. He had said he was going to stay there and guard some area.

Kain has not been shown maintaing control of it when separated farther than perhaps two inches.

Still not impressive speed, we can see him moving and its not really that quick at all. Also whats he damaged before? Scenario mensioned a spaceship, whats the durability of it?

And your assertion is that he cannot maintain it when seperated further than a few inches, prove it? its illogical to think so as Kain is all the mist, how its seperated is irrelevant due to the fact its been seperated before and Kain is fine.

Beats me. I just know they're good enough to take reentries and fire from other ships. Metroid tech in general is just up there on the amazing scale.

A couple thousand meters in a matter of seconds is not impressive?

I don't have to, lol. Your assertion is that he can, despite having no feats or statements to support such an assertion.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Still not impressive speed, we can see him moving and its not really that quick at all. Also whats he damaged before? Scenario mensioned a spaceship, whats the durability of it?

And your assertion is that he cannot maintain it when seperated further than a few inches, prove it? its illogical to think so as Kain is all the mist, how its seperated is irrelevant due to the fact its been seperated before and Kain is fine.

I'm loling that you just asked what the durability is for a Metroidverse space ship. Anything that can even damage a Metroid spaceship is enough to annihilate Kain in one hit. Also if Kain is in mist form Rundas could simply shoot through the mist and freeze it solid, killing Kain in the process.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Only false in that you haven't anything to say 'how' they're false. .____. ive already said them, how could you not see it? Proof, examples and facts (as in, doing the work and not just copying what a wiki page says) are more then posting some wiki pages. Wouldn't be a fan thread if there were more then one person that even slightly agreed.

''I connect all the consistency'' ''consistency-the person-other feats'', your 1/3 of the way there. All three is what matters. Actually I wouldn't mind seeing all the constant feats that you believe make him weaker, all if you don't mind. A punch like that would move Dante horizontally into a long wide decreasing arc, which was not the case as he move in a high arc that comes from a high jump, punch didn't touch him. Haha there it is. You cant provide any proof after being asked several times how a human can so now you want me to prove why human cant. Y'know if you cant prove it just say so. Avrg human punch takes 0.2 to land. 0.2 human RT. With human RT, human movement speed and prediction of the punch this gives you depending on the person a half half chance of blocking or evading. 50% chance with everything in mind to dodge a punch. 40x more difficult to do the same for a that bullet if she was facing you. Meaning that the reactions have to be far above human. For prediction to take a large place the person needs to see what's to be predicted. For something of that level of perfect timing you would need to see, know exactly where the person is targeting (within 5cm), when they would shoot (within 0.1ms). Knowing those two things to factor into prediction are humanly impossible even with sight. Put it like this, a person comes up to you and says 'im going to punch you in the head, get ready' then he punches. You know he's going to punch, you can see the instant he starts to move and can make a fair prediction when to just manage to move out of the way. A- same situation but that person can now punch 40x faster. No human can react or predict at those speeds. B- normal speed but he's now behind you. Wont be able to predict at the exact moment he's about to punch. C- 40x faster then human punch + behind you. Only thing you could do is to predict a substantial time before he punches. Any human in that situation would of gotten shot unless they dived to the side some time 'before' she shoots. Not to judge what your common knowledge is (can catch a bullet in the teeth for example) but without facts, evidence and proof as a comeback... you get the message.

You actually need evidence that air freezes? o_o what happened to that common knowledge of yours? Precisely as the drops falling away doesn't happen ^^ Droplets in the puddles shows that they're easily capable of doing the scene that you want to happen. Fact that it doesn't happen means it didn't.

-Prediction can only take you so far. Predict at the exact moment that someone in front of you is about to punch you; capable, still a good chance of getting hit.. Predict at the exact moment someone behind you is going to shoot you; not capable. And again on that note Lady didnt shoot him the last time they met so why would Dante be so sure she would this time? Now if you 'have' got proof that a human can dodge a bullet like that then go ahead and post.
-So every punch that the person doesn't predict hits? RT has to be close to the strikes speed to react unless you think all punched that have been blocked are all thanks to prediction..
-''predicting to someone behind you is before the punch, easy'' if its so obvious go and prove it. Cant prove he knew she was to shoot or that he could predict 0.0001 before she would shoot. Another example of me given stats and you given one word answers for not being able to reply to it. Prove that a person can react or predict a punch to the back of the head. Prove that a person can dodge a bullet. Or if you cant for both at least the extent. 3 things im asking for proof on. Should be easy for you to get.
-....No. Savior is just made of stone. Mundas is not all stone. Break his face and he'd still be alive. Not to mention the vast powers he has.
-To start the bullet catch is already proof enough as you'd need ultra-high speed+++ to do what he did. YouTube video 5:16 Low chance that he knew he was to do that before as for it to work had have to shoot the last ball (unless he counted them all in the air and knew one ball was left and to go past his shoulder) so he has to act after he sees the right ball to shoot, the white one in the very quick time it takes before he shoots it.

Gravity wont go to that speed. Running at eg gravity's 150 (He was actually much faster then that as he was running past what gravity could do) when he throws at 1000 then pushed further by a bullet going past 2000 when he increased speed and finally running faster then the swords speed to catch it. This is the best example http://science.howstuffworks.com/question456.htm Based of Newtons first law the bullet stays relative.

Watch the vid at exactly 0:05.5. White flash that shoots out from the contact point. ''we see some debris being thrown out of the scene at roughly 60m/s.'' = alot of force to make it move that fast. A weak hit wouldn't make a shockwave, wouldn't of shook anything, wouldn't of sent chunks 60m/s clear off the screen.

Hm really? Lets see I do allow the oppositions points, I do supply proof and don't turn a blind eye to the facts, I do listen to what the opposition says and only referred you as desperate once compared to your five times. And 'suffering' from desperation is on a whole different scale.

Taking a sword to the body = Dante's durability and no strength. Stopping the punch = Dante's strength and some durability. You're comparing strength to durability as getting stabbed involves no strength added. Eg a human can be stabbed by 8psi iirc on a knife point (shows the person getting stabbed's durability) but can stop a 1000psi punch (shows the person stopping a punch's strength)

It was ''during the actual fight''. And once again you ignore the points and just call me bias 😐 Could of at least 'tried' to counter the -Inspection+maths+physics+biology- thats used to support my evidence. Durability =/= strength in this situation like mentioned above a person gets stabbed by 8psi but can stop a 1000psi punch. Next step is that you cant prove it froze before as there is one main thing in your way: there is a 'constant' velocity with no decrease of speed at all for it to have stopped before. Nice to see that your whole defence is stood on a leg that says '-body gets pierced by less so he couldn't of held it up-' with the ^ 8psi stab to 1000psi block making your point void. ^^

YouTube video

Originally posted by BloodRain

Your just repeating points here. I dont "trust" you, those demons are not fast.

yes I have, many times. Their false because youve not shown me actual math to suggest your correct. Your calling it a fan thread based on the number of people who agree to a point? 😆

I have listed them constantly, Nero, Vergil, Echidna, Saviour, Arkham beats on him after he gets tired after some slow sword fighting with Vergil, lady shoots him in the head. All of that would be nice if you did not constantly ignore prediction, if someone was about to punch you and you predicted it thats where it stops, how fast the punch is, is irrelevant if you can predict in time and your opponent is also of human RT and therefore has to react to correct their error.

I need evidence that Cerberius is actually freezing air and is not summoning ice blocks. Droplets do not run off surfaces in that vid iirc.

-Prediction at least in this scenario would be easy, a woman who hesitates to shoot anyway walks a few meters behind you in large boots, weapons all over her and holding a gun. Pretty obvious to dodge/roll tbh.
-Most punches can easily be due to prediction, typical humans as I pointed out cannot react above 0.3-0.5, several experiments such as Jensens box (and their 900 tests) prove it.
-Your not giving real states, your repeating the speed of a bullet and once again, ignoring a lot of other factors such as prediction.
-And the outer shell of Mundus was made out of stone as well. Smaller thinner amounts of it. After that he was just a mass of eyes and gore trying to attack you, hardly impressive power.
-Or to have your mouth pretty much closed and to have teeth/bones stronger than human, ala Dante.

Low chance? low chance that a pool table being jumped on will throw its snooker balls into the air? 😉 Oh and how do you know he was looking for the "right" ball?

What speed? theres no claimed speed in that video and half the time we see him moving at a similiar speed in relation to the environment around him. A bullet hitting the back of the sword is hardly going to make it double its speed...fair enough with the bullet speeds.

I see the white flash and tiny piecies of rubble, I also see the tiny amount of damage on the ground and a not so durable Dante standing fine. Also how do you know what degree of damage needs to made for a shockwave? as I said it causes similiar amount of dust when it just slowly falls a few meters to the ground after dante moves. And where are you getting 60 m/s from?

I allow points, the train point and to a degree Cerberus to name a few, I also allowed fight science and yes, your lieing in the next few. Your turning a blind eye to Dantes worst feats.

Strength is irrelevant, durability is the question here and it doesnt just disapear even if strength is added. If something as heavy as saviour hits your body, your whole body sitll has to take the weight, especially hands. Dante cannot take such forces, and the edge of a knife would need have more PSI to pierce a body than a punch which would need far more. Thats the comparison of blunt vs sharp objects, thing is even a bullet or sword has a certain amount of PSi an saviours punch assuming it was 2k tonnes would give you more PSI than a magnum round fired from a rifle which was BTW only about 20 tonnes PSI, the base amount of weight in your Saviour is 2k tonnes.....Dante "would" have been squished. He also struggled with opening the jaws of echidna, I guess their >2000 tonnes of force now as well?

Heres teh fight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQeRRZv8YcM

At what point in that video do they stop rain?

lol you keep repating your delusion of having so much evidence, when all you have is one piece of evidence, now two with the train evidence for the bullet. Theres nothing for the rest of your claims, theres everything for mine. A knife covers less surface area and show me this 8 psi?

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Beats me. I just know they're good enough to take reentries and fire from other ships. Metroid tech in general is just up there on the amazing scale.

A couple thousand meters in a matter of seconds is not impressive?

I don't have to, lol. Your assertion is that he can, despite having no feats or statements to support such an assertion.

Ok so what sort of damage has this ship in question taken without harm? Show me the damage Rundus did as well plz.

Thats not whats shown, we can see his speed and hes certainly not moving at any great speed at all.

Your assertion was that he cannot. my assertion is that he can control mist despite it being seperated and this has been proven so many times with him breaking it to get through bars.

Reposting for convenience.

YouTube video

Samus and Ridley begin fighting at 16,000 meters. At the end of the fight, the counter reads around 7000, meaning they had fallen OVER 9000 meters.

3:30 Rundas catches Samus and begins the climb back up.

3:36 They reach the top of the shaft, having covered OVER 9000 meters in 6 seconds.

YouTube video

0:06 Samus' power beam does nothing to the ship, but tosses Pirates easily. This isn't important.

0:13 Rundas hits the side of the ship, throwing it into another ship while freezing it solid.

0:19 Two shots, two more ships down.

YouTube video

1:10-1:44

Samus spends a good 20 seconds dumping phazon into this ship before it is destroyed.

2:08 Samus destroys a similar ship with much less phazon, bit it's the same type Rundas took out.

Just note that phazon weaponry is cabaple of total atomic disruption.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats not whats shown, we can see his speed and hes certainly not moving at any great speed at all.

Your assertion was that he cannot. my assertion is that he can control mist despite it being seperated and this has been proven so many times with him breaking it to get through bars.

I disagree, as do the numbers.

The only assertion made was yours, which was that he can maintain control at any distance of separation, despite the greatest separated distance being no more than two inches. Until you can explain to me how it is logical to assume that someone can do something they have never been shown to do, the burden of proof is at your feet.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Reposting for convenience.

YouTube video

Samus and Ridley begin fighting at 16,000 meters. At the end of the fight, the counter reads around 7000, meaning they had fallen OVER 9000 meters.

3:30 Rundas catches Samus and begins the climb back up.

3:36 They reach the top of the shaft, having covered OVER 9000 meters in 6 seconds.

YouTube video

0:06 Samus' power beam does nothing to the ship, but tosses Pirates easily. This isn't important.

0:13 Rundas hits the side of the ship, throwing it into another ship while freezing it solid.

0:19 Two shots, two more ships down.

YouTube video

1:10-1:44

Samus spends a good 20 seconds dumping phazon into this ship before it is destroyed.

2:08 Samus destroys a similar ship with much less phazon, bit it's the same type Rundas took out.

Just note that phazon weaponry is cabaple of total atomic disruption.

The hitch is that we dont actually go with them over that 6 seconds, the screen fades out. Therefore that fade out could have actually represented a good few minutes or more. Likely considering his speed is not that fast when he comes down with the aid of gravity no less.

Freezing it and turning it to ice makes it more brittle. I dont know how phazon works on whatever material their ships are using. He does not actually destroy the ship physically, they blow up when their frozen and they fall into eachother, I agree if Kain is frozen then he can be broken but tbh, at those speeds hes not catching Kain with any powers.

This video is entirely gameplay when Samus is fireing. Also these things seem to weak against frost in metroid, earlier it was said that Samus cannot even damage a little metroid unless its frozen first.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I disagree, as do the numbers.

The only assertion made was yours, which was that he can maintain control at any distance of separation, despite the greatest separated distance being no more than two inches. Until you can explain to me how it is logical to assume that someone can do something they have never been shown to do, the burden of proof is at your feet.

No they dont.

Based on that alone, youve also made an assertion, and thats that he cannot seperate. The burdon of proof is on you I am afraid.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Maths to show the weight and velocity. Most basic thing. Saying something is false is different to proving it, can you prove anything you disagree with? No im calling it a fan thread due to the obvious winning side is debated with no leg to stand on.

So only 7 things? And that only like of them show normal feats when the other are irrelevant. C'mon, everything you got that makes the consistency of his normal RT. If you bothered to read it ive already covered prediction, what more giving examples and stats along with it. To dumb it down. A- With prediction try dodging a punch at 40x speed. Humans cant move that fast. B- A human can attempt to predict a punch from behind but they would 'never' be able to move at the 'exact' moment the person starts the punch. C- Never. No prediction allows someone to move at the ''exact'' moment from behind. Unless you've got evidence that a person can 'easily' react to that or predict to A, B and especially C there's nothing to go on.

First off the move is used to encase enemies in the mini glacier made, meaning whatever is near the enemy is frozen too ie the air. To give an idea, that ice has to be a fair degree colder then liquid nitrogen to freeze the way it does.. And if the air is frozen so is mist. Run off..? Not sure what you're getting at.

-Oh she hesitates now? And now we're assuming she made a clunking obvious sound that alerted Dante? Obvious to you < obvious to more people + 'statistics'. ''Now if you 'have' got proof that a human can dodge a bullet like that then go ahead and post.'' You gave no proof..
-...you defiantly haven't been in a fight because that much dependant on prediction = loss. 0.5 RT = loss. Watch any fight clip if you believe that it takes that long for a human to react, sometimes I doubt you realise just how long half a second is. Jensen's choice, not helping us.
-''3 things im asking for proof on. Should be easy for you to get.'' Again, didn't prove anything.. Like I said prediction cant get to such accurate times like that scene.
-Yeah, that's what I said. So crushing the face wont kill it. Can easily create life, mind-control, TK, can give powers and strength to others, can draw from memories, fire, lightning and energy control, astral form, teleport and powerful reality warping. And not even at full power. Mundas > Savior.
-Oh yeah I forgot that humans have ultra-high speed cameras built into their heads for the perfect timing necessary to catch it.. Mythbusters states that its not possible.
...urm, no. Low chance that the chances of the rebound shot to work, basically if that white ball wasn't there he wouldn't of made the shot as it wouldn't ricochet like it did. He couldn't of known that the balls would in the right place to pull off that shot until he saw them in mid-air.

The running part is faster then the falling speed gravity can give. It doesn't double it, about 1200+ plus 2000 and that we can see how much faster it gets when its hit with the bullet. And Dante had to be faster then that to catch it.

And that white flash is the shockwave, something that's created with a very high force. Durability=/=strength. 2 examples; one is that while viewing a show about forces on explosions they said that any shockwave needs good force behind it, very high force for a visible one.. Second is when testing how tough a tank is (60tons) it was dropped from a crane a pretty high up, dropped it onto solid ground and no shockwave was visible at all. 60 tons at 150-200mph makes no wave and explosion people saying that you need a high force to get it. Chose one of the moving chunks on the shockwave part, went from the centre of impact to the top-right. 6+m in under 0.1 seconds. Min is 60m/s.

>.> the train was after I posted this, and that's only three things. Lying? Ive supplied lots of proof/stats etc, always listen to oppositions points and turning a blind eye =/= accepting them. Like ive said.. again, ive accepted 'every' feat not just a few. And on the giving note, proof/evidence/facts have been asked for you to give 6 time in this and the last post. And their not small things either.

Strength is irrelevant? Its 'everything'. Getting punched in the stomach is a persons durability. Catching a punch is a persons strength. Getting hit (stabbed by a sword) reflects durability but actually stopping the hit (Saviors punch) is all about strength. Durability of skin, muscles and bone < durability of skin, muscles and bone + strength of the person. Like you can stab a weakling as easy as stabbing the worlds strongest person. Btw if you check the scene carefully the bullet that she shoots at his head doesnt even pierce his skull, only smashed onto his forehead. You can still see the bullet on his head when he catches the bullet in his teeth and later we see him flicking it off his head. Wasn't struggling, more like resistance from Echidna (constant pressure). Lets see, species type+increase in size+being a strong boss demon makes it just under 800-1000 tons of constant force. Not bad.

Already said, the rain scene is 'during' the actual fight part, not in that scene.
Wait you think posting links is all the evidence needed? No wonder. Im talking facts and proof as well which you've posted hardly any of. Yeah besides the calcs, facts and figures your opinion of what you think defiantly blows that out of the water. Fighting facts with opinion, not gonna work. Ahh that's was when we first started talking about psi, check the earlier posts if you want it. But like ive said and given some examples for, durability=/=strength.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The hitch is that we dont actually go with them over that 6 seconds, the screen fades out. Therefore that fade out could have actually represented a good few minutes or more. Likely considering his speed is not that fast when he comes down with the aid of gravity no less.

He was travelling at the same against gravity, ya know. Yet it doesn't really matter how fast he was going, IMHO. I was just providing the evidence for Moo.

Freezing it and turning it to ice makes it more brittle. I dont know how phazon works on whatever material their ships are using. He does not actually destroy the ship physically, they blow up when their frozen and they fall into eachother, I agree if Kain is frozen then he can be broken but tbh, at those speeds hes not catching Kain with any powers.

And he pushed the ships into each other. One blast of ice physically shovd one ship into another with enough force to destroy both. One shot will destroy Kain. I still don't see Kain as being all that fast. Rundas can certainly catch him.

This video is entirely gameplay when Samus is fireing. Also these things seem to weak against frost in metroid, earlier it was said that Samus cannot even damage a little metroid unless its frozen first.

There are no other cutscenes featuring those ships. Gameplay is the next best thing. However, you can see that Samus' Power Beam did nothing to them in the cutscenes, whereas an ice blast from Rundas tossed them like toys.

And 'a little metroid'? Those things (Super Metroid) are the size of a man an immune to everything but ice. Tallon Metroids (Metroid Prime) are a weakling strain that can be defeated with normal weapons.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No they dont.

Based on that alone, youve also made an assertion, and thats that he cannot seperate. The burdon of proof is on you I am afraid.

Did you see the same video I did?

I'll make this very clear, because you aren't getting it. I am saying that Kain cannot maintain control over his mist form when it has been separated any farther than the two inches needed to slip through the barred gates. At no point did I say it cannot be separated. At no point did I say anything that requires me to provide proof because he has not shown the ability to do this.

Essentially, you would also have me provide proof that Link cannot jump to Saturn. Or that Kratos can fart and make flowers fly out of his ass.

I can't even find an appropriate line for this thread.

I mean, I want to, but seriously.

What up, Keollyn?