Darth Maul vs Kas'im

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yes, they're to be considered. But this was your entire post.

One can infer that you're giving the edge to Maul because he has more known feats to his name than Kas'im. That is what we call feat wars. 🙂

But yes if Kas'im only has one accolade to his name, while Maul has a couple with feats to back it up, then I would say the edge goes to Maul. Wouldn't it kind of Make Kas'im an unknown?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
the novel stated that every bone in his body was pulpified by it though, did it not? he "defended" himself from it by not dying, it was the temple collapsing that killed him, but he was clearly utterly defeated by the technique. he couldnt do a single thing to actually negate its affects...

There was nothing subtle about Bane’s attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas’im’s body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack. Unfortunately, he couldn’t shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas’im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi’lek’s dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Wrong. He defended against such a powerful attack. This is why I believe him to be superior in the force. Other than that, he is a force unknown. You can't simply ignore this; it's the only real source that exhibits his force power.

and your second statement is another assertion with substantiation. its circular reasoning as well. "the reason why i think kas'im is a superior duelist is because he mastered his saber forms to a higher degree than maul did". thats circular logic unless you can back up the second half of that statement.

Oh my god. Don't do that. How is it circular logic? Kas'im is a superior duelist because he mastered and perfected every form. Maul, has not. And again, whatever mastery Maul has over Juyo... doesn't compare to Kas'im's mastery of it.

After years of study, he’d mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he’d honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever.

It doesn't get simpler than this.

I never said I gave Maul the edge. I said this debate seems to be in Maul's favor so far.

How so? You've been so intent on trying to disprove raw canon, you've offered absolutely no support to Maul. Again, his lightsaber prowess is not close to Kas'im's. Unless you can find a shred of proof, demonstrating a force feat which trumps Bane, this is over.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I never said Maul wins (just to point that out). I said this debate seems to be in Maul's favor so far.

But yes if Kas'im only has one accolade to his name, while Maul has a couple with feats to back it up, then I would say the edge goes to Maul. Wouldn't it kind of Make Kas'im an unknown?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You just described feat wars. Kas'im defeated bane. He mastered all seven forms and then honed his skills for decades while Maul was what,25? Kas'im's experience along trumps Maul's.

Maybe it's not the number of feats Maul has to his name, but it's the feats themselves which are hard to top. He defeated Qui Gon, who was more experienced. He defeated Anoon, who was more experienced and also who was said to have mastered all seven forms. Sidious trained Maul to be an "unstoppable" weapon, torturing and testing Maul to his very limits.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kas'im was losing to Bane for a good portion of the fight until he switched to a form Bane was unfamiliar with. This is not going to help him much here.

Maybe it's not the number of feats Maul has to his name, but it's the feats themselves which are hard to top. He defeated Qui Gon, who was more experienced. He defeated Anoon, who was more experienced and also who was said to have mastered all seven forms. Sidious trained Maul to be an "unstoppable" weapon, torturing and testing Maul to his very limits.

😕

Kas'im was losing to Bane because he was stronger in the force, not because his blade work was better. This has been explained to you several times, and each time you neglect to mention it. Force capability directly influences saber combat. And he doesn't the element of surprise in this situation. You can quote all you want, it's not going to change the fact that Maul can't pull a force feat out of his ass, and that his degree of mastery is nowhere near Kas'im's.

So what? Maul has demonstrated he resists physical pain. Your point being? He can resist a lightsaber through his chest?

Originally posted by Shoes
😕

Kas'im was losing to Bane because he was stronger in the force, not because his blade work was better. This has been explained to you several times, and each time you neglect to mention it. Force capability directly influences saber combat. And he doesn't the element of surprise in this situation. You can quote all you want, it's not going to change the fact that Maul can't pull a force feat out of his ass, and that his degree of mastery is nowhere near Kas'im's.

So what? Maul has demonstrated he resists physical pain. Your point being? He can resist a lightsaber through his chest?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I really could care less why he was losing to Bane. I am asking for you to prove how Kas'im is superior to Maul. Kas'im has good defenses against TK. Ok that's good, but how is that going to help him if Maul rarely ever uses TK in battle?

What the hell? You brought it up. Remember this?

Kas'im was losing to Bane for a good portion of the fight until he switched to a form Bane was unfamiliar with. This is not going to help him much here.

You must be kidding me. I was merely responding to your attack on Kas'im's saber talents, which is because force power influences saber combat. Moreover, you've neglected to mention any force feats of Maul's that rival Kas'im's force shield.

Enough with the bold font too. I will make this as simple as possible, because it's obvious you have many a neurological disorder. Blocking this attack is difficult, this is evident as the author described the effects of it, should it come in contact him. If Kas'im was able to conjure a force shield, powerful enough to absorb said blow, it would obviously require a great deal of force power. This has been repeated several times, and will not be again. If you can't understand it after this many times, there is no reason to continue.

Yeah, being able to take a lot and still keep going.

Now you're just becoming desperate. How will that help him? Last time I checked, Maul is not immune to physical exertion, only pain. And even so, if a lightsaber does come in contact with him, he will die.

Sidious in a saber duel. Even though he lost, it still says a lot.

So did Agen Kolar.

Now, it's your turn. I have justified Kas'im's force domination and lightsaber mastery. What have you done? Instead of trying to disprove facts, back up Maul, because it seems to me this debate is in Kas'im's favor.

Originally posted by Shoes
What the hell? You brought it up. Remember this?

You must be kidding me. I was merely responding to your attack on Kas'im's saber talents, which is because [b]force power influences saber combat. Moreover, you've neglected to mention any force feats of Maul's that rival Kas'im's force shield.

Enough with the bold font too. I will make this as simple as possible, because it's obvious you have many a neurological disorder. Blocking this attack is difficult, this is evident as the author described the effects of it, should it come in contact him. If Kas'im was able to conjure a force shield, powerful enough to absorb said blow, it would obviously require a great deal of force power. This has been repeated several times, and will not be again. If you can't understand it after this many times, there is no reason to continue.

Now you're just becoming desperate. How will that help him? Last time I checked, Maul is not immune to physical exertion, only pain. And even so, if a lightsaber does come in contact with him, he will die.

So did Agen Kolar.

Now, it's your turn. I have justified Kas'im's force domination and lightsaber mastery. What have you done? Instead of trying to disprove facts, back up Maul, because it seems to me this debate is in Kas'im's favor. [/B]

Are you telling me that because he blocked Bane's wave, that he is going to clobber Maul with the force?

Maul was starved and exhausted while fighting Sidious, Kolar was not. Try again. If someone is able to perform well while in great pain or exhaustion, what does that tell you?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are you kidding me? You have not proved how Kas'im is superior in sabers. I am asking you to prove it. You keep saying "Oh, well he mastered all 7 forms." Ok, so did Anoon, but where did it get him? Bane lost the saber duel because of a style he was unfamiliar with. Maul knows this style, so it is an advantage he has that Bane does not. That is why I brought that up.

The degree that Kas'im mastered all forms is far beyond Maul. Far beyond Anoon. This is your dying hope. Because all I've seen is you trying to ABC with Anoon. Will you please get it through your head that Anoon =/= Kas'im. Anoon =/= Bane. Not in terms of force power, not in terms of saber proficiency. What's interesting to me is, here you are, again, trying to disprove canon, instead of looking for sources to support your ludicrous Maul > Kas'im in saber combat.

Your second point barely makes sense. I assume you're implying that Maul is a force and saber beast, who not only mastered, but perfected all forms. This is the issue I'm trying to press, but you won't listen. There are different degrees of mastery, and in different forms. At last you grasp the concept of Kas'im's force superiority, bringing back to this: force power influences saber combat. which was the whole reason Bane stood a chance against Kas'im in the first place. This is why Bane, who lacked the years and years of lightsaber instruction that Kas'im had, was able to overcome him until he switched forms.

Are you telling me that because he blocked Bane's wave, that he is going to clobber Maul with the force?

No, but he will be able to use his superior command of the force to slice him up.

If someone is able to perform well while in great pain or exhaustion, what does that tell you?

Irrelevant. Prove to me that Maul will even survive to the point of being exhausted.

No, but he will be able to use his superior command of the force to slice him up.

In the interest of preventing more head-to-wall contacttime spent talking to S66, would you elaborate on this?

Spoiler:
By asking this I prevent him from feeling the need to mash the keyboard in a (vain) attempt to produce an argument more frequently than he does now.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
In the interest of preventing more head-to-wall contacttime spent talking to S66, would you elaborate on this?

Spoiler:
By asking this I prevent him from feeling the need to mash the keyboard in a (vain) attempt to produce an argument more frequently than he does now.

Well, I am basing this on the following statement:

Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage. The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force.

Now, how can Kas'im be losing, after mastering and perfecting every form? Thus, force affinity has a direct influence over lightsaber combat, giving Bane the edge. This is why he was winning. This is why Kas'im, in combination with his technical skill, will disassemble Maul.

There. Loophole closed without adding another painful "paragraph."

not quite. Prove Kas'sim was stronger than maul in the force, then the loophole is closed.

To my knowledge the best we've been given for Maul is indirect narration indicating that his "Deadliest Sith apprentice in history" is not limited to power with the blade.

We've also seen him tank some Force lightning from a Nightsister (Dathomir). The Wookiee (incorrectly) attributes Force Lightning to him (which is non-canon taken from the Ep.I video game) but otherwise calls his skills "modest" and fails to provide any evidence at all that he has noteworthy talent in any aspect of using the Force in combat.

What do we know about Kas'im?

We know that he tanked (successfully shielding himself from) one of the most destructive outbursts of offensive telekinesis in the mythos. (The quote has been generously provided by our new friend Shoes.)

The capacity to protect himself from such an attack is far beyond anything Maul has shown; it is emblematic of the distinction between the two. While Kas'im does not have the variety of accolades that Maul does (probably because he's found in a much smaller number of sources) his showings are unquestionably superior. Neither Maul's manipulation of rubble (debris?) during his fight in Ep. I nor his ability to withstand the Nightsister's lightning indicate a level of mastery equal to Kas'im's.

The question of 'achieved' potential, then, is settled. Kas'im's mastery of the Force, as indicated by the (favorable for him) comparison between the characters' demonstrated abilities removes from Maul's case the final hope for victory. There will be no upset of skill and technique by the Force, because both skill and the Force are on Kas'im's side.

shoes is ivalice, red. So we might as well call him that.

I have problem with saying that Kas'sim is proven powerful because of a single attack that he protected himself from. In that same book, it says the lowest sith apprentices are taught to protect themselves from force attacks (bubble of protection) from the beginning of their training. The fact that Bane was able to choke one of the students despite that bubble was considered very unusual.

Kas'sim, who we assume would have had much more force mastery than a random apprentice, should be able to block an attack. Being able to protect yourself from an attack, in and of itself can't prove force mastery.

I do not disagree that Maul is comparatively weak in the force, but considering the only thing we know about Kas'sim was that he was able to block a single force attack from Bane, I would almost have to put him as an almost force unknown as well.

This of course, doesn't give anyone any reason to believe Maul would win, i just don't think there is a decisive amount of evidence.

Originally posted by truejedi
shoes is ivalice, red. So we might as well call him that.

If everyone is ivalice, then nobody is. I'll keep my ignorance, thank you very much. (This guy is more articulate and less angry than Ivalice ever was anyway. 😂 )

Spoiler:
Ivalice/Big S, please don't kill me with ur mad musculatures.

I have problem with saying that Kas'sim is proven powerful because of a single attack that he protected himself from. In that same book, it says the lowest sith apprentices are taught to protect themselves from force attacks (bubble of protection) from the beginning of their training. The fact that Bane was able to choke one of the students despite that bubble was considered very unusual.

Kas'sim, who we assume would have had much more force mastery than a random apprentice, should be able to block an attack. Being able to protect yourself from an attack, in and of itself can't prove force mastery.

Spoiler:
or Bane

What I'm getting at is that blocking Bane's attack is noteworthy because it is Bane. This attack was fueled by a particularly powerful individual who was given breathing room to store and unleash his prodigious arsenal of Force power. Blocking Bane is a big deal.

I do not disagree that Maul is comparatively weak in the force, but considering the only thing we know about Kas'sim was that he was able to block a single force attack from Bane, I would almost have to put him as an almost force unknown as well.

This of course, doesn't give anyone any reason to believe Maul would win, i just don't think there is a decisive amount of evidence. [/B]

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Oh but there is. Kas'im is dramatically superior in both functional combat experience and technical skill.

With a lightsaber? Someone either prove that or, if it's already been done, refer me to the post in question.

Originally posted by Shoes
The degree that Kas'im mastered all forms is far beyond Maul. Far beyond Anoon. This is your dying hope. Because all I've seen is you trying to ABC with Anoon. Will you please get it through your head that Anoon =/= Kas'im. Anoon =/= Bane. Not in terms of force power, not in terms of saber proficiency. What's interesting to me is, here you are, again, trying to disprove canon, instead of looking for sources to support your ludicrous Maul > Kas'im in saber combat.

Your second point barely makes sense. I assume you're implying that Maul is a force and saber beast, who not only mastered, but perfected all forms. This is the issue I'm trying to press, but you won't listen. There are different degrees of mastery, and in different forms. At last you grasp the concept of Kas'im's force superiority, bringing back to this: [b]force power influences saber combat. which was the whole reason Bane stood a chance against Kas'im in the first place. This is why Bane, who lacked the years and years of lightsaber instruction that Kas'im had, was able to overcome him until he switched forms.

No, but he will be able to use his superior command of the force to slice him up.

Irrelevant. Prove to me that Maul will even survive to the point of being exhausted. [/B]

Shoes is not Ivalice TJ (that would be me).

BTW Anoon was never stated to have mastered all seven forms. He was stated to be the most technically skilled Jedi alive but that's pretty much it as far as his technical ability with a lightsaber goes.