About Drew, I wasn't saying that he wouldn't possess the characteristics of an all knowing being as far as what would be required to tell a story that you can trust to be a true recollection of events, but rather that he woldn't necessarily possess the characteristics of an all knowing being that would be reflected on every single dimension of the writing, to the style, to the mannerisms, to the emotion, to the vocabulary etc..
GideonDo you have the entire passage? I've been through the book several times over the years and don't recall coming across something like that.
As I mentioned earlier, Count Dooku claimed in Labyrinth of Evil to General Grievous that he could demonstrate maneuvers and techniques from all of the standing members of the Jedi High Council and inflict them in assaults against the general.
Not just that (though yeah, it would be a little presumptious to say the least, especially considering it's unlikely Bane would have even been able to make any such estimations over such a limited sample of the form's library of moves and sequences in any circumstances, let alone while he's getting his ass kicked) but simply that he wouldn't be in a position to know about the specific details of when he mastered the form, how long it took him, that he spent time perfecting it, how much time he spent doing so etc.. (not that the descriptions were necessarily referring to Jar'Kai alone, but that they were referring to a group of forms that included Jar'Kai and that would have applied to Jar'Kai).
Originally posted by EID
About Drew, I wasn't saying that he wouldn't possess the characteristics of an all knowing being as far as what would be required to tell a story that you can trust to be a true recollection of events, but rather that he woldn't necessarily possess the characteristics of an all knowing being that would be reflected on every single dimension of the writing, to the style, to the mannerisms, to the emotion, to the vocabulary etc..
... so we should trust that any declarative statements he makes about the characters, but, conveniently, ignore specific words that may paint them as non-absolute or fallible. 😐
Absolutely not, when the omniscient narrator issues the qualifier that Kas'im was "perhaps" the greatest swordsman ever we fully take into account that it's just a possibility. The message being delivered is that Kas'im was possibly the greatest swordsman ever, and that is what we accept as part of the true state of events. All I was saying was that using the term "perhaps", when for a truly omniscient being, there would be no question of perhaps, does not indicate that it's coming from the perspective of a fallible third party as an omniscient narrator is only "omniscient" to the extent of the knowledge he passes on to the reader and that his "omniscient" status does not have to necessarily be reflected on elements that do not tie in directly to the story, such as the style of writing etc..
Perhaps I haven't phrased it in the clearest way, but it basically goes:
Omniscient narrator ---> reader.
---> = story and presentation of story
Story has to reflect omniscience*.
Presentation of story does not.
* Though it can still be retconned, may be metaphorical, may in actuality not be real but symbolise something that is etc...
okay, i understand what youre saying now! 😄
makes sense to me! 👆
Originally posted by EID
Not just that (though yeah, it would be a little presumptious to say the least, especially considering it's unlikely Bane would have even been able to make any such estimations over such a limited sample of the form's library of moves and sequences in any circumstances, let alone while he's getting his ass kicked) but simply that he wouldn't be in a position to know about the specific details of when he mastered the form, how long it took him, that he spent time perfecting it, how much time he spent doing so etc.. (not that the descriptions were necessarily referring to Jar'Kai alone, but that they were referring to a group of forms that included Jar'Kai and that would have applied to Jar'Kai).
i dont really agree. i think that if i was fighting someone and i knew that they practiced their fighting daily and had for years, i could put two and two together and conclude that they have a deep familiarity that could only been accomplished by intensive practice, even if ive never encountered it until then.
i do agree with you though that bane guessing that he mastered it would be a stretch. even though proficiency with an action is one of the first things you observe about a person, "mastery" is not just a proficiency, but a level of proficiency. a level that you would not be able to recognize unless he possessed extensive knowledge of the person themselves, or the action. in the case of kas'im and jar'kai, bane had neither.
Eminence
Do you have the entire passage? I've been through the book several times over the years and don't recall coming across something like that.
It's the chapter in which Dooku is instructing Grievous and his MagnaGuards; Dooku disarms the general and asks him if he should demonstrate the responses from Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda, Shaak Ti, et al.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-person_omniscient_narrative
^ This was discovered by Advent some time ago, regarding the quote about Yoda as "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known." And it applies, perhaps moreso, here.
Star Wars novels are written in this form; the perspective is from various third-party, fallible characters. Bane is the viewpoint character for much of the novel and it is clear, right from the onset, that he has considerable respect for Kas'im and his skill.
It seems evident from the line "[Kas'im] was perhaps the most skilled duelist ever" that the narrator is not omniscient.
The line about Anoon Bondara's skill was delivered in a similar fashion in Shadow Hunter, absent the qualifier. Yet subsequent sources have retconned this and the quote in Shadow Hunter is simply the assessment of a biased, fallible Jedi Knight.
Comparable statements, off the top of my head, also include Darth Vader's musings about his own power relative to Emperor Palpatine's ("the Emperor was the most powerful Sith to ever exist [...] as would Vader be some day"😉 and the Dark Empire Sourcebook's "it is believed that [Palpatine] had mastered almost all of the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devised new ones at his pleasure."
The idea that the statement comes from an omniscient narrator simply because Bane couldn't know for certain doesn't wash. Fallible characters -- especially arrogant ones -- tend to speculate and make assumptions that they believe entirely to be true.
If this statement is clearly from an omniscient narrator, where does one draw the distinction?
I address this specifically to you, Nebaris. Because you, as I recall, were absolutely unwilling to accept the statement about Yoda as anything other than his own thoughts. But this, conveniently, does not constitute Bane's own musings?
Seems an awful lot like cherrypicking. I'm not going to get in a protracted debate with you on the subject, so please make it good in one post.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
It doesn't take omniscience to figure out that Big Al is beating the shiit out of me. It doesn't even take omniscience to figure out why he can do it. That much can be figured out in the moment. (35-life spent lifting weights would explain most everything.)It does take omniscience to know that Big Al spent 15 minutes each day stretching, followed by 3 hours of heavy lifting, 30 minutes of light cardio, lunch, then more cardio (with a short prison-rape break) every monday, wednesday and friday, while on tuesdays and thursdays he played basketball against the Bloods while whittling his soap into a shank.
This is hilarious.
Originally posted by Gideon
The idea that the statement comes from an omniscient narrator simply because Bane couldn't know for certain doesn't wash. Fallible characters -- especially arrogant ones -- tend to speculate and make assumptions that they believe entirely to be true.
While this is a fair point (and why I suggested that it might otherwise have applied to the statement that Kas'im was the greatest living swordsman and possibly the greatest ever) there's a difference between statements that an individual could have some measure of that can easily transition into vague speculations and assumptions within the realms of something that he can not (Bane cannot know that Kas'im was the greatest alive and possibly the greatest ever, but he does have a measure of how good he is, which allows for vague speculations and assumptions of how good he truly could be in the grand scheme of things; the same with Vader and being the most powerful Sith ever; the same with Yoda and being the most powerful [Jedi] ever) and statements that recall specific, unarbitrary details regarding something that an individual would have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever.
And I'm not referring simply to the idea that Kas'im had mastered Jar'Kai (which would fall under the former catagory, along with the Yoda and Vader scenarios), but that Bane would have had detailed information regarding how long it took him to master it, that he spent time perfecting it, how much time he spent perfecting it etc.. details that Bane would have absolutely no knowledge of (considering he only just found out that Kas'im could use the form at all), and details of such an unarbitrary nature that would have made them immaterial to traits such as arrogance or bias etc... that could possibly lead into wild assumptions or speculation regarding Kas'im's studies under the form.
GideonI recall Dooku warning Grievous about what would happen should he challenge any of the Council members, and mentions Obi-Wan, Drallig, Mace Windu, and ["stars help you"] Yoda by name. I do not remember anything about "demonstrat[ing] maneuvers and techniques from all of the standing members of the Jedi High Council and inflict[ing] them in assaults against the general."
It's the chapter in which Dooku is instructing Grievous and his MagnaGuards; Dooku disarms the general and asks him if he should demonstrate the responses from Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda, Shaak Ti, et al.
I checked the parallel scene in the CWC and it isn't there either. I can't access either my hard copy of LoE or the one online and I understand you can't either, so I'm hoping someone here (Shoes?) can check for us.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
What is that difference, exactly?
Well. I can go into a book store, buy a book about Kung Fu, learn all techniques used in a certain style - and then still fail to apply them, especially in a combat situation.
Also I want to remind certain people here, that we're not talking about some conventional fighting technique applied by some regular people. Lightsaber forms represent philosophies. The movement sequences just open a path to true mastery, which can't be archived without following the respective philosophy. A Sith Lord, trained for using his aggressive feelings in combat can use Soresu movement patterns, but I doubt he would be able to archive Obi-Wan's level of mastery in that specific art.
That aside, there are cases (mentioned in my last posting) that completely negate the idea, that the ability to effectively handle a lightsaber is dependant on how much training you put into that art. People powerful enough in the force can apparently that by instinct alone (Nomi Sunrider), much like young Anakin Skywalker could win a Podrace based on his (never trained) "Jedi reflexes".
Kas'im himself also acknowledges that a being with a superior force connection can move beyond forms, while somebody better trained in the different lightsaber forms can beat a (forcewise) more powerful opponent by "overloading" the precog abilities of his opponent. Hence Kas'im being able to fight Bane back once using something he had not previously taught to his former student.
I was under the impression that Kas'im was teaching Bane the forms with all of the various weapon variants. For instance, Bane knows how to teach Zannah how to use a double blade, even though he himself uses only a single hilt. He is also provided experience fighting against non-conventional weapons like the lightwhip.
Given the above, this is pretty much non-important. Bane obviously knew how to use a DBL, provided he has spent thousands of hours practicing against an opponent using that weapon. Kas'im also taught him the advantages and disadvantages of that weapon directly.
But how does it matter if Bane is familiar with the DBL - Kas'im is.
I see now where this is going. It took me a while, but now it has clicked. You want to dispute the various accolades because they come from Bane. I suppose that this will be fairly difficult for you if you haven't got a book, because I was under the impression that these statements were coming from the narrator.This may be very important.
Well. PoD follows a limited third-person narrator, who focuses on the action of certain persons but doesn't show true omniscience. I still don't get what kind of influence that has on the discussion. Bane doesn't sing praises above Kas'ims abilities. They are merely observed by the young Sith apprentice and mentioned throughout the entire story - mostly by the narrator (although that may be descriptions of Bane's observation). Yet what Bane observes was Kas'im teaching different style to the Sith students and applying different lightsaber styles in combat. Does that imply mastery of said styles? I don't know. But Kas'im was certainly able to use every form with deadly efficiency and several weapons.
The one I'm thinking of specifically is the one where Kas'im is sent off to fight Bane by [Kopecz?] the leader of the Brotherhood. At that point I thought there were mad props offered to him.
My...here is a list of quotes about Kas'im from PoD:
"By observing the natural tendencies of his students as they learned the basics, Lord Kas'im determined which form would best match their style." - Kas'im did decide what form suited his students best. So he must have known them all at least.
"The sequences were designed by the Blademaster himself so that each maneuver flowed smoothly into the next, maximizing attack efficiency while minimizing defensive exposure" - Kas'im apparently designed his own manouvers to maximize efficiency
"The sequences are just tools. They help you free your mind so you can draw upon the Force. That is where you will find the key to victory. Not in the muscles of your arms or the quickness of your blade. You must call upon the dark side to destroy your enemies!" - Kas'im on lightsaber training
"You've moved far beyond sequences and forms," the Master told him. - Kas'im on Bane's lightsaber style
"Kas'im's form and technique were flawless" - Bane's thoughts of Kas'im's lightsaber skill. Notice that even after weeks of training, Bane couldn't do more than make Kas'im step back with all of his effort...
"Even the Force couldn't keep his muscles fresh forever, and the seemingly endless duel had finally taken too great a toll. The Blademaster, on the other hand, had lost almost none of his speed and sharpness." - another observation of Bane.
"Kaan could ill afford to lose the loyalty of the greatest swordsman of his camp" - Kaan (or the narrator?) regards Kas'im as the greatest swordsman "in his camp" which means "in the Brotherhood of Darkness".
"Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him." - Well. This is also, quite obviously, Bane thinking. Yet the idea that Kas'im has mastered all forms and honed his skill for decades simply appear to be facts. I wouldn't buy the "perfect weapon" and "greatest swodsman ever" statments though.
Enough?
And on a sidenote:
Originally posted by Gideon
[B]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-person_omniscient_narrative^ This was discovered by Advent some time ago, regarding the quote about Yoda as "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known." And it applies, perhaps moreso, here.
Star Wars novels are written in this form; the perspective is from various third-party, fallible characters. Bane is the viewpoint character for much of the novel and it is clear, right from the onset, that he has considerable respect for Kas'im and his skill.
Gideon finally admits that the Antedeluvians were always right criticizing his Sidious bias, by finally understanding the concept of literature interpretation. Epic Win. 😮💨