Darth Maul vs Kas'im

RN
Overall, however, I think you're fighting an uphill battle to toss out Bane's thoughts on Kas'im as too biased to be of use. You'd have to show that Bane is either incompetent (unlikely, based on his showings) or too awed by his mentor to be objective (also unlikely, mostly because of his own musings during their battle).

Bane is fallible, and clearly does not possess the extent of Kas'im's mastery. The point of his musings regarding Kas'im's ability remains untouched: he was clearly an extraordinarily gifted duelist. But how is Bane to know the extent?

We have precedent of characters' assuming facts that are not necessarily true: Darth Vader's musings regarding his relative skill with Palpatine in the Rise of Darth Vader and Death Star; Assant's perception of Bondara's ability.

Originally posted by Shoes
Where is this?

When he fights Raskta doesn't he compare her to Kas'im?

PoD, that segment specifically, was not coming from Bane's perspective, as it clearly details information Bane was not in a position to know (that he had been winning the duel all the way until Kas'im switched to Jar'Kai, as well as the fact that the descriptions of Kas'im's mastery of the lightsaber were being used as the reason for Bane being unable to defeat him would indicate that the descriptions took into account Kas'im's mastery of Jar'Kai, a form Bane didn't even know that Kas'im was even a practitioner of until moments ago, affirming the idea that he clearly would not have been in a position to recall the extents of Kas'im's mastery in such detail).

Originally posted by EID
PoD, that segment specifically, was not coming from Bane's perspective, as it clearly details information Bane was not in a position to know (that he had been winning the duel all the way until Kas'im switched to Jar'Kai, as well as the fact that the descriptions of Kas'im's mastery of the lightsaber were being used as the reason for Bane being unable to defeat him would indicate that the descriptions took into account Kas'im's mastery of Jar'Kai, a form Bane didn't even know that Kas'im was even a practitioner of until moments ago, affirming the idea that he clearly would not have been in a position to recall the extents of Kas'im's mastery in such detail).

knowing why youre losing as youre losing does not require omniscience.

Originally posted by Gideon
It is not a completely omniscient narrator, otherwise the narrator would have said quite conclusively as to whether or not Kas'im was the greatest duelist in history, rather than a "perhaps."

An omniscient narrator in fiction isn't necessarily supposed to emulate an all knowing being down to the very phrasing and mannerisms and to the most emotive and psychological extents however, but to simply detail the story in a manner that the audience can trust that it's actually what has factually taken place (within the context of the story).

Originally posted by EID
An omniscient narrator in fiction isn't necessarily supposed to emulate an all knowing being down to the very phrasing and mannerisms and to the most emotive and psychological extents however, but to simply detail the story in a manner that the audience can trust that it's actually what has factually taken place (within the context of the story).

if that was the case then no decelerations made by the authors in regards to the skill of a person could be taken into account.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
knowing why youre losing as youre losing does not require omniscience.

Indeed. It's a good thing that what the descriptions go into goes a good level beyond that then isn't it? Knowing exactly how long it took Kas'im to originally master the forms, and how long he spent perfecting them: forms that encompassed a style Bane hadn't even been aware that Kas'im used moments before, clearly goes into information that Bane would have not been in a position to know.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
if that was the case then no decelerations made by the authors in regards to the skill of a person could be taken into account.

Huh? 😄

edit.

Originally posted by Gideon
The line regarding Bondara's level of skill is also from a character's perspective since subsequent material has retconned Bondara from being the greatest to one of the greatest.

Which sources out of curiosity?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
knowing why youre losing as youre losing does not require omniscience.

Yes, it does.

Look:
I am losing. I have no way of knowing why I am losing. The information about why I am losing gets to the spectator anyway.

Where did that information come from?

EID
Which sources out of curiosity?

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook and [possibly?] the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

Red Nemesis
Yes, it does.

Look:
I am losing. I have no way of knowing why I am losing. The information about why I am losing gets to the spectator anyway.

Where did that information come from?

...Understanding how one is losing a fight requires omniscience? Have you been in any fights?

Originally posted by Gideon
...Understanding how one is losing a fight requires omniscience? Have you been in any fights?

You misunderstand me.

It doesn't take omniscience to figure out that Big Al is beating the shiit out of me. It doesn't even take omniscience to figure out why he can do it. That much can be figured out in the moment. (35-life spent lifting weights would explain most everything.)

It does take omniscience to know that Big Al spent 15 minutes each day stretching, followed by 3 hours of heavy lifting, 30 minutes of light cardio, lunch, then more cardio (with a short prison-rape break) every monday, wednesday and friday, while on tuesdays and thursdays he played basketball against the Bloods while whittling his soap into a shank.

The level of specificity that this particular expository interlude includes seems to preclude an origin from our intrepid hero.

Originally posted by EID
Indeed. It's a good thing that what the descriptions go into goes a good level beyond that then isn't it? Knowing exactly how long it took Kas'im to originally master the forms, and how long he spent perfecting them: forms that encompassed a style Bane hadn't even been aware that Kas'im used moments before, clearly goes into information that Bane would have not been in a position to know.

could you elaborate? what specific information was revealed that bane could not have surmised on his own?

Originally posted by EID
Huh? 😄

you clarified my point for me, tbh.

but to simply detail the story in a manner that the audience can trust that it's actually what has factually taken place (within the context of the story).

if we are to assume that drew is not an infallible force, then that means that any statements he makes that have to do with events that transpire outside of the ones that he retells would have be taken as purely his own fallible opinion.

It does take omniscience to know that Big Al spent 15 minutes each day stretching, followed by 3 hours of heavy lifting, 30 minutes of light cardio, lunch, then more cardio (with a short prison-rape break) every monday, wednesday and friday, while on tuesdays and thursdays he played basketball against the Bloods while whittling his soap into a shank.

if this is your reasoning, then why are you stating that im wrong? this doesnt contradict with anything ive stated.

Marvel, that post was aimed at Gideon to answer why I think that the Kas'im accolades (at least some of them) are from an omniscient(ish) narrator.

I don't actually remember what I'm supposed to be challenging you on?

Something about memorization?

you stated that i was wrong about knowing why i was losing requiring omniscience here:

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Yes, it does.

Look:
I am losing. I have no way of knowing why I am losing. The information about why I am losing gets to the spectator anyway.

Where did that information come from?

gideon responded to that statement before i did, here:

Originally posted by Gideon
...Understanding how one is losing a fight requires omniscience? Have you been in any fights?

you then responded with this:

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You misunderstand me.

It doesn't take omniscience to figure out that Big Al is beating the shiit out of me. It doesn't even take omniscience to figure out why he can do it. That much can be figured out in the moment. (35-life spent lifting weights would explain most everything.)

It does take omniscience to know that Big Al spent 15 minutes each day stretching, followed by 3 hours of heavy lifting, 30 minutes of light cardio, lunch, then more cardio (with a short prison-rape break) every monday, wednesday and friday, while on tuesdays and thursdays he played basketball against the Bloods while whittling his soap into a shank.

The level of specificity that this particular expository interlude includes seems to preclude an origin from our intrepid hero.

if im wrong, and you do need to be omniscent to know you are losing as you are losing, what part of that post above proves that your position is right?

god damn it, i wish i was a better writer. >.< everything that i write feels awkward and poorly written (grammar aside).

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
you stated that i was wrong about knowing why i was losing requiring omniscience here:

gideon responded to that statement before i did, here:

you then responded with this:

if im wrong, and you do need to be omniscent to know you are losing as you are losing, what part of that post above proves that your position is right?

god damn it, i wish i was a better writer. >.< everything that i write feels awkward and poorly written (grammar aside).

I was extrapolating your position and got it wrong. If you agree with my last post then we have no problems.

i do agree with ythat there are certain things about a person that you could only know if you experienced it all first hand or if you are omniscient. ✅

things like specific numbers.

i would not say that something like "kas'im had spent years refining his techniques" or "he'd mastered every movement of every form of the double bladed lightsaber" would require omniscience though.

it wouldnt for example take omniscience or first hand experience for me to realize that the reason why gideon would kick my ass in star wars jeapordy is because hes spent years immersing himself in various star wars media.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
could you elaborate? what specific information was revealed that bane could not have surmised on his own?

The extent of Kas'im's mastery, how long it took him to originally master every form, how long he had spent perfecting them, as well as the fact that he was the greatest swordsman in the Galaxy, and possibly ever.

While it is not totally beyond the realms of possibility that Kas'im had informed Bane of the extents of his training, and that Bane may have simply been vaguely assuming the latter about Kas'im's status as a swordsman, it's the fact that the descriptions encompass a form that Bane wasn't even aware that Kas'im was even slightly proficient in, until a few moments ago, that renders it something that Bane absolutely would have not been in a position to know.

That he had been winning the duel all the way until Kas'im switched to Jar'Kai, as well as the fact that the descriptions of Kas'im's mastery of the lightsaber were being used as the reason for Bane being unable to defeat him would indicate that the descriptions took into account Kas'im's mastery of Jar'Kai, a form Bane didn't even know that Kas'im was even a practitioner of until moments ago, affirming the idea that he clearly would not have been in a position to recall the extents of Kas'im's mastery in such detail.

To expand on that slightly; one of the prime reasons given for Bane's early dominance over Kas'im was that he had memorised all of Kas'im's moves and was able to recognise and counter every one of them.

But then when Kas'im uses a form that Bane hadn't even been aware that Kas'im was slightly proficient in, those descriptions regarding his mastery are largely attributed to the reason he was now on the losing end of their engagement (which we know was because Kas'im switched to Jar'Kai, a form Bane was unfamiliar with), which would indicate that those descriptions were taking into account Kas'im's mastery of Jar'kai (and not simply Kas'im's mastery of the forms that Bane did know about and could counter perfectly - something that was attributed to his early dominance), a form Bane hadn't even known that Kas'im could use, let alone being able to recall his studies under the form [even when grouped together with those that Bane knew, the detail would correspond with all of the forms, including Jar'Kai].