I don't get it. Wasn't it said that if the crystal was destroyed the world would end? If that's the case, and it DID get destroyed, why didn't the world end? Wasn't Kuja's plans to go in and bash up the crystal? Why would he want to do that if it was going to have absolutely zero effect on anything whatsoever? Or is it explained in the game? I haven't played in a while.
At any rate, for those who want to claim the crystal was destroyed, that is a question that does need answering one way or another.
Also not sure why the crystals supposed destruction has any relevance to Zidane vs Cloud....... ermm
Originally posted by Nephthys
His argument is that they'd need to be dead to face Necron, because of the self-defeating argument that Necron is the intangible part of the Iifa Tree that Zidane and co were unable to destroy the first time, so they'd need to be somewhere where they can fight such an intangible foe in the first place. The problem with that is that first, he can't support that Necron's a part of the Iifa tree and secndly that [b]they are already insuch a place: They are in Memoria. A place created from memories, the subconscious of mankind, the collective will and experience of the entire universe.Kuja has already created monsters in Memoria. Add this all up together and what do you get? [/B]
Indeed, they would need to be dead because according to the argument Necron is the Soul Divider, the main mechanism of the Iifa Tree. Memoria it's just a place created by memories, that as far as I'm concerned still exist/function to some extent within the physical world and has nothing to do with the Soul Divider at all. So I don't see the argument as 'self-defeating'.
Actually, that makes reference to Trance Kuja's ability to revive the Chaos Guardians via the Crystal's power. Trance Kuja creating Necron makes absolutely no sense because: 1) He pretty much was blown off of the screen once Ultima was performed. 2) No one knows how much time it takes to create a monster. 3) Kuja couldn't have created Necron from the Crystal as he did with the other monsters because once again Kuja was beat after his Ultima attack and 3) Necron seems to be an entity more independent/advanced than a mere mindless monster and he's more powerful than Trance Kuja. Try again.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh and btw:http://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-IX/Update%2086/8-PSOGL2_795.jpg
http://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-IX/Update%2086/32-PSOGL2_831.jpg
Look familiar? Its even in the same room.
That's not quite right. When the party fought Deathguise they were in the Crystal World and when they fought Necron they were in a complete and separate place called Hill Of Despair. No to mention that (if you read) the article itself refers to this part and gives a very good reason of why this idea is very unlikely anyway.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh and BTW? They party ALREADY tanked Trance Kuja's Ultima:http://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-IX/Update%2079/61-PSOGL2_633.jpg
http://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-IX/Update%2079/65-PSOGL2_640.jpg
http://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-IX/Update%2079/66-PSOGL2_642.jpg
vs
http://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-IX/Update%2086/25-PSOGL2_820.jpg
http://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-IX/Update%2086/29-PSOGL2_827.jpg
Did they get LESS powerful since then? I don't think so.
Did I just win? It feels like I just won. Huh.
They didn't 'tank' anything. They were just defeated by the attack like insects.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And I suppose that you can prove that Kuja only used a 50% Ultima on the party can you?
Based on this, he wanted the party alive
Kuja: "Now, it's your turn... Should I kill you quickly to show my
appreciation for all you've done? Or should I kill you slowly and
painfully to show you my love... Oh, I've got a great idea! How's this?
I'll make you pillars for my castle!"
Plus he wanted to prove he was better than Zidane.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Guess what stud, they were never in the Iifa Tree at all. They were in Memoria.
So yeah, they were in another plane of existence. All the time. A placed literally formed from their subconscious and from memories. That does not mean that they were dead, especially in a place as malleable as Memoria.Look familiar? Its even in the same room.
His argument is that they'd need to be dead to face Necron, because of the self-defeating argument that Necron is the intangible part of the Iifa Tree that Zidane and co were unable to destroy the first time, so they'd need to be somewhere where they can fight such an intangible foe in the first place. The problem with that is that first, he can't support that Necron's a part of the Iifa tree and secndly that [b]they are already insuch a place
:"To return everything back to the zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life. In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all life desires."
Kuja has already created monsters in Memoria. Add this all up together and what do you get? [/B]
Sorry, all I remembered was them approaching the Iifa tree, but I'm starting to remember everything pretty well now.
Wasn't just their memories, it was the entire planet's.
Basically you're saying they fought Deathguise on The Hill of Despair? Uh no, if anything that was some unexplained error by the design team considering Kuja summoned Deathguise to battle them at the same place he would fight them. Not to mention the dying souls you don't hear and the swirling clouds you don't see or the giant thing that Necron awoke from.
So your explanation of it is after Kuja is defeated, he creates an even more powerful monster on the spot, one that claims to have existed for some time. Note that it is said he was awoken by Kuja's emotions not created.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i think people who are quoting info from wikia and other non cannon sources maybe havent PLAYED ff9. nothing suggests that the party died, everything suggests that the crystal was destroyed.zidane MURDERS cloud.
Considering that wiki source contained the same info as the Ultimania....... Yeah. Nothing other than the disappearance of the party, and nothing suggest the crystal was destroyed because NO ONE WOULD BE ALIVE AND NECRON WOULD NOT BE APPEARING TO DESTROY THE CRYSTAL, THIS IS AN EMERGENCY BROADCAST SYSTEM <----- If nothing else read the big letters ermm
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh and BTW? They party ALREADY tanked Trance Kuja's Ultima:Did they get LESS powerful since then? I don't think so.
Did I just win? It feels like I just won. Huh.
Yeah I already mentioned they survived that (though either way they were defeated) and it obviously wasn't his best, aside from what Kuja9001 said. He is obviously capable of doing a much stronger blast than that and already proved he can destroy the planet (Including that platform they were laying defeated on) with what seemed like little effort to me and a lot of fun.
At least it feels that way to someone.
So please tell me, if they weren't killed then what happens to the bodies that disappear? They weren't thrown off to some other place because Square Enix is capable of showing such animations instead of leaving the party in a spot to disappear. I'm certain Kuja didn't decide 'hey maybe I should teleport them somewhere else where there is a giant monster waiting' while getting blown away by his own attack which has also never happened before. Why do their souls transfer while at The Hill of Despair because none of them obviously have such a power and no one else performed that back on Gaia or Terra after someone was injured.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Indeed, they would need to be dead because according to the argument Necron is the Soul Divider, the main mechanism of the Iifa Tree. Memoria it's just a place created by memories, that as far as I'm concerned still exist/function to some extent within the physical world and has nothing to do with the Soul Divider at all. So I don't see the argument as 'self-defeating'.
Its self defeating because the entire premise, nay the entire argument, hinges on Necron being part of the Iifa tree. Which he cannot support! And yeah exactly, Memoria has nothing to do with the Soul Divider. So why they hell would it be in the center of Memoria!?
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Actually, that makes reference to Trance Kuja's ability to revive the Chaos Guardians via the Crystal's power. Trance Kuja creating Necron makes absolutely no sense because: 1) He pretty much was blown off of the screen once Ultima was performed.
And yet apparantly he had enough power to revive the party. :3
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
2) No one knows how much time it takes to create a monster.
He pulls Deathguise out of his ass instantly to fight the party.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
3) Kuja couldn't have created Necron from the Crystal as he did with the other monsters because once again Kuja was beat after his Ultima attack
Your own argument assumes that this is not the case.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
and 3) Necron seems to be an entity more independent/advanced than a mere mindless monster and he's more powerful than Trance Kuja. Try again.
The Chaos Gaurdians were not mindless monsters either, and prove that Necron is more powerful than Trance Kuja.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's not quite right. When the party fought Deathguise they were in the Crystal World and when they fought Necron they were in a complete and separate place called Hill Of Despair. No to mention that (if you read) the article itself refers to this part and gives a very good reason of why this idea is very unlikely anyway.
Proof of this? Not that I really care. You can't prove they were in some hell like place at all. Making your point unwinnable.
If did read it you gnat, stop insinuating that I did not. His reason are circumstantial at best and are mainly 'that wud be dum'.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
They didn't 'tank' anything. They were just defeated by the attack like insects.
They were momentarily taken down. They recieved no wounds or even a scratch from the attack. Nothing Cloud has will give Zidane as much as a paper cut.
Based on this, he wanted the party aliveKuja: "Now, it's your turn... Should I kill you quickly to show my
appreciation for all you've done? Or should I kill you slowly and
painfully to show you my love... Oh, I've got a great idea! How's this?
I'll make you pillars for my castle!"Plus he wanted to prove he was better than Zidane.
That doesn't prove that he did not intend for his attack to kill them. Thats merely himplaying with them after the fact. Try again.
Killing him would prove that, would it not?
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Sorry, all I remembered was them approaching the Iifa tree, but I'm starting to remember everything pretty well now.Wasn't just their memories, it was the entire planet's.
Basically you're saying they fought Deathguise on The Hill of Despair? Uh no, if anything that was some unexplained error by the design team considering Kuja summoned Deathguise to battle them at the same place he would fight them. Not to mention the dying souls you don't hear and the swirling clouds you don't see or the giant thing that Necron awoke from.
So your explanation of it is after Kuja is defeated, he creates an even more powerful monster on the spot, one that claims to have existed for some time. Note that it is said he was [b]awoken
by Kuja's emotions not created.[/b]
Yeah, I know. But nearly every part of Memoria was shaped into a location from the parties memories, so its likely that when you're actually in Memoria you have some sway in forming it.
I'm not saying anything. I merely pointed out that there is an area remarkably similar to the one in which Necron is fought right next to the Crystals place. I'm just saying that its a pretty fvcking huge leap in logic to assume that they're in hell based on a change of location. Because theres screaming in the background they MUST be in an afterlife? Yeah, **** no. There are also swirling clouds in the Deathguise fight. Are they dead there too?
Again, I did not say that at all. I'm pointing out that there are other explanations than your pants on head retarded leap in logic of 'THEY@RE DEAD!!!' Maybe, just maybe, he's simply a monster. Not the Grim Reaper. The Ultimania says that he was created by the fear of death. Guess what place can create monsters out of thought? Memoria. There is absolutely nothing suggesting that its connected to death. the Ultimania says that its connected to the Fear of death. Nothing else.
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Yeah I already mentioned they survived that (though either way they were defeated) and it obviously wasn't his best, aside from what Kuja9001 said. He is obviously capable of doing a much stronger blast than that and already proved he can destroy the planet (Including that platform they were laying defeated on) with what seemed like little effort to me and a lot of fun.At least it feels that way to someone.
So please tell me, if they weren't killed then what happens to the bodies that disappear? They weren't thrown off to some other place because Square Enix is capable of showing such animations instead of leaving the party in a spot to disappear. I'm certain Kuja didn't decide 'hey maybe I should teleport them somewhere else where there is a giant monster waiting' while getting blown away by his own attack which has also never happened before. Why do their souls transfer while at The Hill of Despair because none of them obviously have such a power and no one else performed that back on Gaia or Terra after someone was injured.
If its so obvious that it wasn't his best, then it shouldn't be hard proving it. That the platform they were on survived means nothing. Kujas Ultima rampage had him specifically attacking the supports of the platforms. Not the platforms themselves. And he was flipping the fvck out at that point. He wasnt having fun.
The bodies disappearring could easily be a graphical glitch. Or Necron teleporting the party to this 'Hill of Despair' you guys keep talking about (which I dunno where that was mentioned). I think that if the entire party died, there'd be a little more emphasis put on that, or hey, have it actually acknowledged!
Standard power of friendship BS. And Memoria is a place not just of memories, but also life itself. Just as memories can be shaped, so too can life, logically.
************
This is the last I'll post on this. I'm not debating 3 guys at once on the same subject. Basically to sum up your positions have absolutely no proof or evidence behind them other than suppositions. I'm not going to waste my time dealing with your baseless speculations anymore.
You know you could just answer us all at once if your arguments are repeats of "insult-no thats impossible-I refuse to clarify why-insult"
You are definitely twisting the ultimania words, either that or AWOKEN and created somehow became the exact same words lately, excuse me while I go check every dictionary just to be sure. I would post the exact quote but seeing as it has been posted already, your interpretation of it is just to help in an argument.
No the clouds were not swirling as they were against Necron, not even close really.
I'm quite sure I saw a few (2 I believe) of Kuja's ultima attacks rip the top parts of those platforms.
Really that Necron thing may be the only explanation for anything you said that could make sense. Though FF9 didn't acknowledge a lot of things in the story, leaving it a mystery. Like how Kuja goes from Memoria to the Iifa tree.
Seriously nothing you said had nearly as much as 1/4th of the proof/connections to help your argument and only thing you had working for you was insulting everyone, but since I'm nice I wouldn't report you and accept conceding defeat. 😉
Because obviously explaining arguments is not your thing AKA "THEY CANT B DEAD, JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE IN A PLACE LIKE THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT F'ING RETARD".............. Seriously? ermm
Originally posted by Nephthys
This is the last I'll post on this. I'm not debating 3 guys at once on the same subject. Basically to sum up your positions have absolutely no proof or evidence behind them other than suppositions. I'm not going to waste my time dealing with your baseless speculations anymore
Walking away with your tail between your legs. Plays FF8 Victory Theme, We won.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its self defeating because the entire premise, nay the [b]entire argument, hinges on Necron being part of the Iifa tree. Which he cannot support! And yeah exactly, Memoria has nothing to do with the Soul Divider. So why they hell would it be in the center of Memoria!?[/B]
Neph, the Soul Divider is part of the Iifa Tree. And the party were not in Memoria. Also, look at these pictures:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/TerranFaces.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/NecronsFace.jpg
This is the connection between Necron and the Terrans. The faces are almost identical.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet apparantly he had enough power to revive the party. :3
It's not his powers, though. It's the Crystal's.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He pulls Deathguise out of his ass instantly to fight the party.
Deathguise just seemed to have been there, Kuja just summoned it to fight the party.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Your own argument assumes that this is not the case.
That's not true. And if you want to claim Kuja created Necron via the Crystal you will need to back that one up.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Chaos Gaurdians were not mindless monsters either, and prove that Necron is more powerful than Trance Kuja.
They weren't created by him. Kuja used the power of the Crystal to revive them. What? Necron is the freaking final boss.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof of this? Not that I really care. You can't prove they were in some hell like place at all. Making your point unwinnable.If did read it you gnat, stop insinuating that I did not. His reason are circumstantial at best and are mainly 'that wud be dum'.
Zidane says: ''Where is this!? when they appear in the Hill of Despair, so they had no idea about their location, thus your ''they are the same place'' point is refuted.
It's a logical reasoning.
Originally posted by Nephthys
They were momentarily taken down. They recieved no wounds or even a scratch from the attack. Nothing Cloud has will give Zidane as much as a paper cut.
Back that up. They were defeated like ragdolls and they took the attack together, no one tanked anything. So that's hardly a 'feat' for Zidane. And Zidane isn't made of steel so I don't know what you mean here.
Originally posted by Kuja9001
Walking away with your tail between your legs. Plays FF8 Victory Theme, We won.
I fail to see how I'm walking away with my tail between my legs when I just wrote a lengthy post combating your 'point'.
Like how Kuja goes from Memoria to the Iifa tree.
I assume that when Memoria imploded he just fell.
Back that up. They were defeated like ragdolls and they took the attack together, no one tanked anything. So that's hardly a 'feat' for Zidane. And Zidane isn't made of steel so I don't know what you mean here.
Back up that Zidane was not wounded?
tTnDIWrYJfs&feature=channel_video_title
The scene directly after Kujas rampage has him walking around with nerry a limp. Sorry bud.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Back up that Zidane was not wounded?The scene directly after Kujas rampage has him walking around with nerry a limp. Sorry bud.
What? After the attack they were laying on the ground. Besides how do you know they weren't wounded at all? How do you know just by looking at a 3D pixelated animation? That makes no sense. No one 'tanked' anything. Get over it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
awerollNo visible wounds. No lasting damage. They were momentarily subdued and unable to stand, but no actual damage was done. Its not my fault that you apparantly cannot accept/understand this.
I've seen Cloud stab by Sephiroth with no visible wound 😐
I rather see Zidane winning but this isn't helping...
Originally posted by Nephthys
You're hopeless.
What is the meaning of this? I'm being respectful to you so at least I request the same.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Cloud wasn't walking around fine 3 minutes later now was he?
What's your point? Zidane and his friends were laying on the ground without being able to stand and some of them passed out.
