Originally posted by Nephthys
Carefull TJ, going down the path of claiming luck will only lead you to pain and disappointment.
Clearly, from the posted comic we see that Luke has the ability to best DE sidious. However, this doesn't meant that sidious DOESN'T possess the ability to best Luke. The accolade we take for luke from that fight is simply that he is on Sidious's level, not that he is superior. Being on Sidious's level is something Bane has never been proven to be.
Originally posted by truejedi
If you can't understand that two beings at a certain high level can't have two fights with two different endings, without having different levels of ability for the two fights
Well, I'd prefer you stick to facts. No assumptions.
Prove Luke could have handled the force attack without Leia.
Prove it wasn't PIS.
Prove Luke's force superiority.
Because you suggest Luke is on par with Sidious, in terms of saber combat, and therefore is able to exterminate Bane. Or, would you rather prefer to list some force feats, rivaling Bane's. If you want to ABC, fine. Kas'im, the most technically skilled duelist, was held off by Bane, demonstrating his dueling talents.
Originally posted by Shoes
Well, I'd prefer you stick to facts. No assumptions.Prove Luke could have handled the force attack without Leia.
Prove it wasn't PIS.
Prove Luke's force superiority.Because you suggest Luke is on par with Sidious, in terms of saber combat, and therefore is able to exterminate Bane. Or, would you rather prefer to list some force feats, rivaling Bane's. If you want to ABC, fine. Kas'im, the most technically skilled duelist, was held off by Bane, demonstrating his dueling talents.
1. I don't have to prove that, since I never claimed it.
2. How the heck was it PIS? Burden of proof goes to the person calling something PIS. They have to show a vast body of evidence that supports the fact that it was anamoly.
3. I really don't have to,as you are the one bringing it up.
Try again. They fought a duel, in which Luke cut off Sidious's hand. They also fought a duel where Luke was disarmed by sidious. This puts them while perhaps not equal, at least SIMILAR footing. That is the only link i needed to use to put Luke on Bane's level, since bane never exhibited anything near the force-profiecieny of DE sidious.
Oops. I assumed you considered force power to be a contributing factor in the fight. My bad.
Well, you say that NJO Luke > Bane because of his duel with Sidious. He cut off his arm, true, but this does not demonstrate why Luke would beat Bane. Palpatine's enormous command of the force was not applied in the fight, and that leads me to believe that Luke's "victory", was PIS.
In fact, now that you mention it, it's not a victory at all. Luke couldn't defend himself from Palpatine's storm alone; he needed Leia. They may be even in lightsaber skill, but not in force skill. And again, Bane held his own against Kas'im, whose bladework is far beyond Palpatine's, and by extension, Luke's own. So again, I ask you to prove that Luke > Bane in terms of force power. Don't tell me that just because he overpowered Palpatine in lightsaber combat results in a victory for Luke.
Originally posted by Shoes
Well, I'd prefer you stick to facts. No assumptions.Prove Luke could have handled the force attack without Leia.
Prove it wasn't PIS.
Prove Luke's force superiority.Because you suggest Luke is on par with Sidious, in terms of saber combat, and therefore is able to exterminate Bane. Or, would you rather prefer to list some force feats, rivaling Bane's. If you want to ABC, fine. Kas'im, the most technically skilled duelist, was held off by Bane, demonstrating his dueling talents.
You know he has to do NONE of these right?
Originally posted by Shoes
Oops. I assumed you considered force power to be a contributing factor in the fight. My bad.
Well, you say that NJO Luke > Bane because of his duel with Sidious. He cut off his arm, true, but this does not demonstrate why Luke would beat Bane. Palpatine's enormous command of the force was not applied in the fight, and that leads me to believe that Luke's "victory", was PIS.
1. So Sidious fought a lightsaber duel without using the force? BULLSHIT. 2nd. Prove it was PIS, since you are so fond of demanding proof. I'm waiting.
They may be even in lightsaber skill, but not in force skill. And again, Bane held his own against Kas'im, whose bladework is far beyond Palpatine's, and by extension, Luke's own.
HAHAHAHAHA. Let's quote that again.
Kas'im, whose bladework is far beyond Palpatine's, and by extension, Luke's own.
Stick a fork in it. You are done.
Also this:
Bane held his own against Kas'im
So again, I ask you to prove that Luke > Bane in terms of force power. Don't tell me that just because he overpowered Palpatine in lightsaber combat results in a victory for Luke. [/B]
Get back to me when you can come up with a Bane equivalent of manipulating a black hole, and of cloaking an entire FREAKING planet.
The FORCE aspect of this fight has never been in doubt. The only question has been whether Bane's orbalisks will protect him from Luke's sabers long enough to get in a hit on Luke.
Considering Luke has electric judgement, and electricity is the kryptonite for orbalisks....
I'm going to leave you to figure that one out.
I'm back.
Well, it looks like the comic scans provide for this particular question. I see two statements, coupled with two other facts, that lead me to conclude that Leia's battle meditation enhanced Luke's ability.
The first quote was already pointed out by Nemesis; when Luke asked Leia to join her power to his, she responded "I already am."
The second quote comes from the narration on the same scan, "As Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resources within Luke[...]"
The first fact has already been pointed out in this thread; Luke fought Palpatine before and was swiftly defeated.
The second fact comes from the Essential Guide to the Force, where the book concludes that Luke realized he "couldn't defeat Palpatine alone."
In other news, it also gives me more ammo for the Force Storm argument! 😖hifty:
Originally posted by truejedi
it was your bad.
1. So Sidious fought a lightsaber duel without using the force? BULLSHIT. 2nd. Prove it was PIS, since you are so fond of demanding proof. I'm waiting.
No, he didn't use an actual force attack. Furthermore, I retract my statement about it being PIS. The fact is, Luke never actually won by himself, only with help from Leia. When he did use the force, Luke was ultimately no match for it.
HAHAHAHAHA. Let's quote that again.
Be my guest. I demand evidence that Palpatine's technical skill surpasses this:
After years of study, he’d mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he’d honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever.
Oh, I'm not putting Palpatine's force power into question, merely his lightsaber skill. Because again, Luke was no match for the storm. But as for his saber victory, I would like to put that into perspective. Or, if not that, please show me an example of Luke's lightsaber talents.
Bane got his ASS handed to him by Kas'im with sabers.
When he used an unfamiliar form. Other than that...
The Blademaster continued to give ground, pushed inexorably back by the raging storm of Bane’s onslaught. Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage.
Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas’im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.
The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life. But he didn’t know the Temple like Bane did. Bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway.
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Probably not. Even with all his knowledge, Bane was able to counter this, once again, demonstrating skill beyond Luke's. The only way Luke could beat him is by using this form. Now, this is RoT Bane. I have no source, but common sense would indicate that his study of lightsaber combat and force mastery would only increase between the 2 periods.
Get back to me when you can come up with a Bane equivalent of manipulating a black hole, and of cloaking an entire FREAKING planet.
Thank you. See, I'm not the most knowledgeable SW guy, particularly in the NJO and Legacy universe . And I didn't mean to be so aggressive, it's just that I wanted some evidence. So, I suppose Luke is superior in terms of force power. But Bane is nothing to be scoffed at either. He unleashed a force wave, setting a forest ablaze, was able to bring down hundreds of tons of rock, and had very strong lightning.
Considering Luke has electric judgement, and electricity is the kryptonite for orbalisks....
This is not solid. Wookiepedia says he can probably do it, however this is not confirmed.
Luke certainly has moments where his command of the Force is, well, miles beyond anything demonstrated by Bane. He was, for example, able to overpower UnuThul, an ex-Jedi Knight with access to an unbelievably vast reservoir of Force energy in the form of the Colony. If Denning's prose is to be taken literally, Skywalker was able to root himself in the Force to such an extent that the tractor beams of a Super Star Destroyer or even the supermassive black hole in the center of the galaxy could not move him.
Manipulating a dovin basal is one feat that I've never truly understood. I've been told across forums that he either played tug-o'-war with it and, other times, I've been told he simply manipulated the creature generating it, which is essentially like telekinetically pushing the firing mechanism of a nuclear warhead as opposed to generating the explosion itself.
On the other hand, if Bane has his orbalisks, Luke certainly can bring him down through his green lightning, which was strong enough to instantly kill a Slayer.
Again, I was unaware of exactly how powerful Luke is. It annoys me that characters of his magnitude exist.
But why can't Bane simply block it with his lightsaber? He's certainly demonstrated control and technical power. And does this not apply to Luke as well? Bane had perfected his lightning to the point of it being able to kill on contact.
Shoes
Again, I was unaware of exactly how powerful Luke is.
Hint: he's not nearly as powerful as some would have you believe.
But, if you believe George, he's supposed to be able to become more powerful than Palpatine, which is saying something.
Of course, I realized a while ago that it's statements like these that inexorably lead to disappointment. We get disappointed when Luke struggles with someone like Lumiya because Word of God says he's supposed to be at Level X when, on paper, he functions at Level Y.
Shoes
It annoys me that characters of his magnitude exist.
He's not the worst.
Palpatine, Nihilus, Bane, Revan, Kas'im, et al. are orders of magnitudes more obnoxious than Luke. Their ridiculous feats are pretty consistent. Luke just has an outlier or two that overwhelms most.
Shoes
But why can't Bane simply block it with his lightsaber? He's certainly demonstrated control and technical power. And does this not apply to Luke as well? Bane had perfected his lightning to the point of it being able to kill on contact.
no
Last time I checked, Luke did not generate lightning from his fingertips -- there was no energy being released that had to hit a specific target a la Force lightning or Harry Potter curses or rayguns. He simply gestured, the Slayer began to convulse with green sparks, and he toppled over dead.
Nephthys
If it was the second one, why is it apparantly so draining (if I'm recalling correctly)? Unless of course they were thousands of miles away at the time, like when Caedus did the same thing, it seems like a pretty simple feat.
Caedus did the same thing? 😕
I'm not sure. I suppose one could make an argument that an organism capable of generating an artificial black hole/gravity well/whatever must be pretty powerful to overwhelm.
I suppose it's more or less me trying to figure out why the hell they didn't use such telekinesis sooner or later if that's what they did [overwhelming a black hole and not the creature itself].
Caedus did the same thing?
He gets an officer to shut down a planetary reactor or something from orbit. It basically turns him into jelly. This confused me at first becuase according to you guys Vader choked some guy from across the galaxy and Caedus is supposedly on his level. Though telepathy might be innately much more draining than FC I guess....