luck? who claimed luck? I will say there is a certain amount of chance that impacts every fight. However, no amount of chance is going to help someone in a fight who is completely outmatched by another.
Sorry, I'm still sort of sore at the whole 'chance' element of feats every since Burning Thought started claiming that obviously someone catching a bullet with their teeth was pure luck when that character is a casual bullet-timer.
Though if Luke wasn't being helped it might have been that he was able to 'centre' himself in the Force like Marek did just before he pwned Vader.
Originally posted by Gideon
The first fact has already been pointed out in this thread; Luke fought Palpatine before and was swiftly defeated.
The second fact comes from the Essential Guide to the Force, where the book concludes that Luke realized he "couldn't defeat Palpatine alone."
It's unclear as to how much Leia has helped and again, she was untrained.
Originally posted by Gideon
The fact that she helped out at all means that Luke cannot be factually said to have defeated Palpatine on his own.And I don't know about you, but defeat means defeat. No qualifier given.
That's reaching and you know it Gideon. It can also mean "can't defeat in an all out fight" or "can't defeat in a force battle, or "can't defeat in beer pong."
It sure can.
But one can examine the context of the sentence or the surrounding paragraph to rule out things like beer pong or arm wrestling.
Luke surrendered himself to eliminate the threat Palpatine posed to the New Republic; Luke is well aware that the only real way that that's going to happen is if Palpatine is dead.
So "defeat" clearly refers to a physical altercation or conflict of some kind. All out, Force-only, or saber-only. It does not say nor does it suggest a particular avenue.
Originally posted by Gideon
It sure can.But one can examine the context of the sentence or the surrounding paragraph to rule out things like beer pong or arm wrestling.
Luke surrendered himself to eliminate the threat Palpatine posed to the New Republic; Luke is well aware that the only real way that that's going to happen is if Palpatine is dead.
So "defeat" clearly refers to a physical altercation or conflict of some kind. All out, Force-only, or saber-only. It does not say nor does it suggest a particular avenue.
Nor does it rule out that Luke can defeat him in a particular venue. It certainly doesn't mean "Luke can't defeat him in any way, shape, or form."
DS
Nor does it rule out that Luke can defeat him in a particular venue. It certainly doesn't mean "Luke can't defeat him in any way, shape, or form."
You applied the term "reaching" to my contention and I'll now take the time to explain to you how the only one reaching here is you.
We have before us four pieces of evidence that support the idea that Luke's defeat of Palpatine is sketchy at best.
Gideon
I'm back.Well, it looks like the comic scans provide for this particular question. I see two statements, coupled with two other facts, that lead me to conclude that Leia's battle meditation enhanced Luke's ability.
The first quote was already pointed out by Nemesis; when Luke asked Leia to join her power to his, she responded "I already am."
The second quote comes from the narration on the same scan, "As Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resources within Luke[...]"
The first fact has already been pointed out in this thread; Luke fought Palpatine before and was swiftly defeated.
The second fact comes from the Essential Guide to the Force , where the book concludes that Luke realized he "couldn't defeat Palpatine alone."
In other news, it also gives me more ammo for the Force Storm argument!
That's four.
Reaching is when someone makes a contention or a claim without anything to support it. Do you have any evidence to support the idea that Luke could beat Palpatine in anything related to combat on his own?
Originally posted by Gideon
You applied the term "reaching" to my contention and I'll now take the time to explain to you how the only one reaching here is you.We have before us four pieces of evidence that support the idea that Luke's defeat of Palpatine is sketchy at best.
That's four.
Reaching is when someone makes a contention or a claim without anything to support it. Do you have any evidence to support the idea that Luke could beat Palpatine in anything related to combat on his own?
No, I didn't ever say he could either. However, it was you who said "defeat is defeat", and virtually applied the term universally.
Also
Please. The comic clearly states it was Leia who unlocked hidden resources buried within Luke. Without her, Luke would have perished then and there.
Originally posted by Shoes
@BeefEnough. You are reaching. Can you disprove this? [/B]
It's clear that you don't know the laws of debate, otherwise you wouldn't be asking me or TJ to prove negatives.. Furthermore, Sidious eventually defeated Luke in their initial light saber duel. Luke was without Leia at the time. Please explain how Luke would have perished without her..
Shoes
@GideonDo you have any idea why Palpatine lost the second lightsaber duel?
I have anthe idea, the idea that the comic and other sources provide: Luke's abilities were augmented/enhanced/improved by Leia's battle meditation during the second duel with Palpatine, whereas before she was not present.
Left to their own relative skills, Luke clearly hadn't accumulated the power or technique necessary to challenge the Emperor in any specific arena.
Matt
I thought it just counted as 'Emerald Lightning'? Or did i make that up?
I've heard that expression as well, but it's simply a unattested colloquialism.
DS
Sidious eventually defeated Luke in their initial light saber duel. Luke was without Leia at the time. Please explain how Luke would have perished without her..
WTF
Shoes is saying that without Leia's presence and involvement, Luke would have died the second time he fought Palpatine.
Originally posted by Gideon
Leia's battle meditation during the second duel with Palpatine,
Hmm. I don't see any evidence of Battle Meditation, if that is what she was doing. She seems to be glowing in one of the panels, but that's all. Are there any sources confirming this?
And would someone be so kind as to provide the page number on which Luke executed his variant of Electric Judgment?
Shoes
Hmm. I don't see any evidence of Battle Meditation, if that is what she was doing. She seems to be glowing in one of the panels, but that's all. Are there any sources confirming this?
She demonstrates proficiency in battle meditation in Dark Empire II, if I recall correctly. But you're right: there is no indication that she was specifically using battle meditation in Luke's duel with Palpatine, so I withdraw that.
A more appropriate designation would be that Leia was doing something that bolstered Luke's performance. Be it battle meditation, the Force harmony technique that they would later use to defeat the Emperor's Force Storm, or some other variant.
Shoes
And would someone be so kind as to provide the page number on which Luke executed his variant of Electric Judgment?
I'm on campus and I don't have my copy of TUF on me, so someone else will have to do so.
As if it hadn't been established about a gazillion times already...
The orbalisks are only "weak" to electricity in the sense that electricity is the only thing that has been established to be able to possibly damage them. However they are not "weak" to them in the sense that they are more vulnerable to its effects than say, the unprotected human skin or any battle armour that characters that typically partake in these threads will be equipped with.
In fact, the opposite would be the case, as they were still capable of absorbing hundreds of thousands of volts of electricity when they received a direct hit from a force pike and Bane's defences weren't up. So they're actually especially resistant to the effects of electricity, not vulnerable.
...Which is why it boggles the mind when people think Bane is somehow more vulnerable to the effects of Force Lightning than anybody else out there. There is literally zero reason to believe this.