Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You can't point at one innocent person (or any number) who was killed because of war, and condemn an entire army. If you are to condemn anyone, then it is the politicians who tell the military to do their job.
actually, in the Palestinian hotel incident, many investigations have shown the issue is anything but black and white
I don't blame the entire military for this act, but rather only the relevant actors
i do not believe that American military has a policy which delibrately targets reporters, though they obviously dont take the care I would suggest they should to protect them
i agree otherwise
Originally posted by Shakyamunisonsigh.. aspects of it are others are no longer viewed as a justifiable act in modern war,, i really think you of all ppl are being pretty arrogant to quote Sun tzu to someone who's life revolved around war and was part of one's military reading..
The Art of War was written by Sun Tzu thousands of years ago, and is still applicable today.
i have never wanted to slap anyone in my life as much as i want to slap you for ur comments and view of what you consider to be applicable in modern warfare.
i know how to win wars just as effectively as any ancient military person as i am sure that Hitler and Saddam knew as well... all using tactics form Sun tzu's book.
strike hard and fast..
killing civilians to demoralize a nation and make them sick of war.
leave nothing in your wake.
kill children and any who may one day raise a weapon against you in the future... etc etc..
these are military truths but we dont live in a world where we wish to commit genocide to win or sterilize a nation for our future occupation..
Originally posted by inimalist
actually, in the Palestinian hotel incident, many investigations have shown the issue is anything but black and whiteI don't blame the entire military for this act, but rather only the relevant actors
i do not believe that American military has a policy which delibrately targets reporters, though they obviously dont take the care I would suggest they should to protect them
i agree otherwise
Then I was projection what I have heard form other people on to what you were writing. I apologize for that, but it is only natural. The military should take as much care as they can to protect the innocent, but not at the expense of the innocent. The individual solder who follows lawful orders, cannot be held to blame for the horrors of war.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then I was projection what I have heard form other people on to what you were writing. I apologize for that, but it is only natural. The military should take as much care as they can to protect the innocent, but not at the expense of the innocent.
killing the innocent to protect the innocent is absurd
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The individual solder who follows lawful orders, cannot be held to blame for the horrors of war.
one is responsible ONLY for their own actions
short of mind control, that soldier is accountable
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
these are military truths but we dont live in a world where we wish to commit genocide to win or sterilize a nation for our future occupation..
**** ya
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
sigh.. aspects of it are others are no longer viewed as a justifiable act in modern war,, i really think you of all ppl are being pretty arrogant to quote Sun tzu to someone who's life revolved around war and was part of one's military reading..i have never wanted to slap anyone in my life as much as i want to slap you for ur comments and view of what you consider to be applicable in modern warfare.
i know how to win wars just as effectively as any ancient military person as i am sure that Hitler and Saddam knew as well... all using tactics form Sun tzu's book.
strike hard and fast..
killing civilians to demoralize a nation and make them sick of war.
leave nothing in your wake.kill children and any who may one day raise a weapon against you in the future... etc etc..
these are military truths but we dont live in a world where we wish to commit genocide to win or sterilize a nation for our future occupation..
It has been a long time sense I read the book, but Sun Tzu goes into reasons not to go to war. If you follow those first, you will not have to do the rest. I was challenging inimalist for what I thought was judging the military for one bad act. Of all people I would think you would understand that.
Originally posted by inimalist
killing the innocent to protect the innocent is absurdone is responsible ONLY for their own actions
short of mind control, that soldier is accountable
**** ya
War is absurd. Way would you try to get something not absurd form war?
Not a solder. On this we disagree. As long as the order is lawful.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then I was projection what I have heard form other people on to what you were writing. I apologize for that, but it is only natural. The military should take as much care as they can to protect the innocent, but not at the expense of the innocent. The individual solder who follows lawful orders, cannot be held to blame for the horrors of war.
Nazi's and world courts would argue against what would be considered lawful orders. also our US. military must follow all orders.. which i know ppl will say not unlawful orders. the think is we make an oath to obey all lawful orders but, that does not mean you get to choice which unlawful orders you will disobey.
for instance if you are given an order to fire on a family and you refuse you will still lose your rank and possibly go to the brig...
another is if you are aware of black ops units who regularly obey and carry out unlawful american and international laws...
who do we hold accountable in these situations? the command or the soldier or both..
even if you want to disobey or question the order we were train to follow the order and then once executed to question and informed your command why it is illegal or unlawful. it also depends on your command when one can question an order for instance in my command we were told if we wanted to question a command prior to execution we needed to have the regulation in our pocket and name specifically the article...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
War is absurd. Way would you try to get something not absurd form war?
by this logic, nothing is immoral if one is already engaged in an immoral act
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not a solder. On this we disagree. As long as the order is lawful.
on this we disagree
As someone mentioned on another forum: once you've trained people to suppress normal human behavior you shouldn't be surprised when they occasionally do something inhuman.
On another note, not to be unsympathetic, but why exactly did they have kids in the van?
I think this proves two things. One: the military needs better cameras. Two: the person who authorizes fire should be able to watch what the camera sees rather than rely on being told that there are people with AK-47 on the street.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
As someone mentioned on another forum: once you've trained people to suppress normal human behavior you shouldn't be surprised when they occasionally do something inhuman.On another note, not to be unsympathetic, but why exactly did they have kids in the van?
i still cant figure out what they were doing in the 1st place and how the military new who they were
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaosit wouldn't have mattered the pilot would more then likely fired even if he was aware of the situation and was ordered to fire.
I think this proves two things. One: the military needs better cameras. Two: the person who authorizes fire should be able to watch what the camera sees rather than rely on being told that there are people with AK-47 on the street.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
it wouldn't have mattered the pilot would more then likely fired even if he was aware of the situation and was ordered to fire.
The audio makes it sound like they saw them and asked to shoot not that their commander didn't understand and ordered them to. Besides wouldn't it stop some of the things like this if the guy watching could say confidently "that's a camera not an RPG"?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaosit dependents in the ppl not all soldiers/warriors have the courage to disobey or question an order.
The audio makes it sound like they saw them and asked to shoot not that their commander didn't understand and ordered them to. Besides wouldn't it stop some of the things like this if the guy watching could say confidently "that's a camera not an RPG"?
he could if he could see it was a camera correct his command but it still falls on his command to to give him the firing order and for the pilot to obey...
it would be nice to think that the pilot would not engage but, i think that is just wishful thinking and it is not likely to happen.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
well that is your experience mine were different i can only go by what i experience and how i executed my orders. i obeyed and followed my military oath as the best of my ability and how it was presented to me in the marines...
And I do take into account that you have seen combat and I did not. If I had been in your shoes, by opinion might be different today.
Originally posted by inimalist
by this logic, nothing is immoral if one is already engaged in an immoral act…
Immoral? We should never go to war. Therefore, if we find ourselves in war, we should do whatever we can to end the war. If it takes an immoral act to end an immoral act then I don’t know enough to make that judgment. Was the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan at the end of WWII immoral?
morality in war is hard... sometimes the actions themselves are not the immoral conundrum but why one does it is...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Immoral?
yes, I would deem murder immoral
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
We should never go to war.
indeed, the wholesale murder of a group of people for political reasons is immoral and should be avoided
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Therefore, if we find ourselves in war, we should do whatever we can to end the war. If it takes an immoral act to end an immoral act then I don’t know enough to make that judgment.
the end justifies the means?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Was the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan at the end of WWII immoral?
are you serious? of course it was