ROTJ Luke Skywalker Vs Barriss Offee

Originally posted by Shoes
[B]To what extent did Yoda's training help Luke? And quote please.[/B]

Stormtroopers are not Barriss.

I didn't realize Luke engaged the Empire in actual ground combat consistently for several years between ANH and ROTJ. 😕

Barriss on the other hand, was a veteran of the Clone Wars, and managed to survive Order 66.

You have stated no sources, no quotes, no feats for Luke. How could I possibly discredit a non-existent argument? See the above.

Originally posted by ares834
[B]Yoda taught him to use the force... Clearly his training was helpful as he held his own against Vader who has taken down Jedi far more powerful than Barriss.

this is circular reasoning.

"luke defeated vader because hsi skills had improved due to hsi training."

"what was the extent of this training?"

"well it was good enough to give him the skills to best vader."

thats tautology i believe.

ares has as good an argument as "Luke was not a skilled lightsaber duelist, because I say so." like you were using earlier, Marvel.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
this is circular reasoning.

"luke defeated vader because hsi skills had improved due to hsi training."

"what was the extent of this training?"
"well it was good enough to give him the skills to best vader."

Regardless Barriss has no feat to compare to Luke besting Vader.

Originally posted by ares834
Yoda taught him to use the force... Clearly his training was helpful as he held his own against Vader who has taken down Jedi far more powerful than Barriss.

😮

Spoiler:
Vader was holding back

SotE

CW

She did not survive Order 66...

Misread this. Nonetheless, I doubt Luke could have.

I only need one feat, Luke defeated Vader. Barriss has no other feats in a similar caliber to this. None at all.

😮

Precisely how much it helped? Dunno. That it helped? That's pretty clear.

Originally posted by Shoes
[B]
I didn't realize Luke engaged the Empire in actual ground combat consistently for several years between ANH and ROTJ. 😕

Well judging by the comics we have a whole lot of ground missions by him during that time, he was in plenty of fighting. 4 years when he's one of the most wanted people in the galaxy after all. A fair amount of it's off-screen so we don't know if he was studying Obi-Wan's and Yoda's journals like mad, replaying the Bespin fight in his head over and over, or what, but he definitely did get more skilled and experienced.

We see the results. Vader comments on his skill jumping between ESB and RotJ. He's able to fight a whole lot more conventional forces successfully, like we see on the sail barge.

hes a jedi knight by rotj isnt he? for some reason.

Originally posted by Shoes
😮

Spoiler:
Vader was holding back

CW

Misread this. Nonetheless, I doubt Luke could have.

😮

BTW Vader considers Luke to be the most powerful Jedi he has ever fought. Yes it may be fatherly pride, but it shows Luke in a good light anyways.

Originally posted by Q99
Precisely how much it helped? Dunno. That it helped? That's pretty clear.

The question was this:

what lightsaber training did luke receive between ANH and RotJ that would make him a competent fighter.

You have not answered this. So, without an answer, Vader's loss was either:

a) Him holding back
b) PIS

Vader was obviously a force titan. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Vader would trash Luke in the force. Prove Luke's saber proficiency, and I will concede the point.

LOLZ.

See the above.

got more skilled and experienced.

Proof? I strongly suggest you choose another feat aside from his supposed victory over Vader.

EDIT 2:

Originally posted by ares834

Go ahead and name a feat tha Barriss has preformed

I suppose holding up several tons of rock when trapped in a cave . I don't exactly watch CW. Real disappointment.

that is better than Luke's.

See above.

Originally posted by Shoes
Vader was obviously a force titan. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Vader would trash Luke in the force. Prove Luke's saber proficiency, and I will concede the point.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
this is circular reasoning.

"luke defeated vader because hsi skills had improved due to hsi training."

"what was the extent of this training?"

"well it was good enough to give him the skills to best vader."

thats tautology i believe.

A tautology would be something like: P>P

A tautology is a statement that is always true regardless of how it is interpreted. On a truth table its always true. Essentially a tautology in an argument is a sign that either someone is using math or is making unfounded truth claims.

okay, thanks for clearing that up.

Shoe
You have not answered this. So, without an answer, Vader's loss was either:

a) Him holding back
b) PIS

Vader was obviously a force titan. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Vader would trash Luke in the force. Prove Luke's saber proficiency, and I will concede the point.

Or (C) He improved off-screen due to experience and self-training, which he had ample opportunity, and training under a former Grand Master of the Order may've included some saber instruction too.

We have Vader *and* Palpatine comment on his skills. Plus his performance against normal enemies has skyrocketed.

"We don't see how his skills improved, therefore his skills must not have improved, even though it's both mentioned and demonstrated they have," is not a logical leap to make.

You've not offering any evidence he hasn't improved, you're just assuming that if we don't see the training it can't have happened. We have character's words on it matching his improved results.

Vader was clearly toying with him in ESB, but there's no mention or sign of him doing so by anyone in RotJ. So you're going to have to provide evidence on that, not just default to it.

Luke had the means to improve, the motive to, and the opportunity (3 years between ANH and ESB, one more between ESB and RotJ, training with a Jedi master, time in a warzone under which many missions were undertaken).

So Vader was lying to Luke about how good he had gotten with a lightsaber? Seriously? THAT'S the argument right now?

Why in the HECK would he do that?

Originally posted by truejedi
So Vader was lying to Luke about how good he had gotten with a lightsaber? Seriously? THAT'S the argument right now?

Why in the HECK would he do that?

Also apparently holding back far more than the ESB 'obviously toying with him' fight?

Honestly I'm not sure how someone could be of the opinion that Luke didn't improve a ton between the movies.

Barriss Offee was killed in the Clone Wars during Order 66. Officially she was a Jedi Healer and her clones murdered her on Felucia. Read Star Wars: Death Star.

Back to the point, Luke did manage to improve - when Luke attacked the first time and kicked him to the floor Vader stated:

"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's mind that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had aquired since their last duel, in Cloud City-not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth."

Well Yoda, Vader, The Emporer and Luke himself ALL thought Luke had the skills of a Jedi Knight. And Vader and the Emporer saw him as an especially Powerful Jedi Knight.

Luke- "But I came back to complete my training"
Yoda- "No more training do you require, already know you that which you need"
Luke- "Then I AM A Jedi??"
Yoda- "hahahaha... one thing remains, you Must Confront Vader"

Confronting Vader was obviously Luke's equivalent to the Jedi Trials.

Vader to Luke- "Your skills are now complete.. Indeed you are Powerful as the Emporer has Forseen"

The Emporer to Vader "Hes grown Strong in the Force since you last met. Only TOGETHER can we bring him to the Dark Side of the Force."

Emporer- "Take your fathers place at my side"
Luke- "No! Il never turn to the Darkside. Youve failed your highness! Im a Jedi! Like my Father before me!"
Emporer- "So be it. Jedi."

Now if just one character said that then I could agree it could just be the opinion of an In-Universe fallible character. But thats just too many In-Universe characters for me to ignore.

Not to mention that Movie Novelisations are considered G-Canon and that has Vader admitting being overpowered by Luke quite badly in the ROTJ novel.

And just look at the Title of the movie for God's sakes.. Return of the Jedi! Is anyone really arguing that Luke wasnt a True Jedi yet because he wasnt actually skilled enough??!! I doubt Lucas would agree.

Luke wielded Knight level abilities before he faced Vader in RoTJ. He had to face Vader to before he could call himself a Jedi Knight. 'Return of the Jedi' has another meaning - the Jedi had been destroyed due to Order 66. Luke was the first (other than Galen Marek) in over 30 years, to have extensive training in the Jedi arts and be knighted.

Originally posted by Q99
Or (C) He improved off-screen due to experience and self-training, which he had ample opportunity, and training under a former Grand Master of the Order may've included some saber instruction too.

I am awaiting Ares' post to clear things up on this subject, because you don't have a shred of proof of this. If there is no quote in SotE, I doubt any exists at all. What Translucent said is canon, but if you dissect each character, and look at their various feat and accolades, it doesn't add up. This is what leads me to believe that Vader's loss was PIS. Moreover, for this to be actually considered a feat, Luke's lightsaber skills must have been so far beyond Vader's, that he couldn't overpower him with the force. So far, I've yet to see an example of this. Anyone in possession of SotE is welcome to prove me wrong. To reiterate, prove Luke's lightsaber superiority, using anything else but his fight with Vader, and theories with no support.

I just glanced up at the title. What exactly do we know about Barriss?

feats and accolades fall to the wayside when you consider actual results from a fight.
If the Luke-Vader fight was PIS, and the Maul and Kenobi fight was PIS, and the Kenobi-Anakin fight was PIS (all of these have been argued) then basically what you are saying is you know better than lucas who should have won these fights.

Why should I take your opinion over Lucas's?