Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Unless of course, you know, the game makes you. Like those things called boss fights. Gee, the President of Shinra is fighting Cloud with a shotgun. It is impossible for Cloud to run from the fight. The fight doesn't end unless Cloud hits him with something. Will Rufus just stand there and not use his gun? Probably not.
Even so, just because someone fight's a character with a gun does not make that character a bullet timer or bullet proof. There is still no canon example of Cloud bullet timing or tanking bullets in FF7. You are simply making that assumption based off of insufficient evidence. You're argument is basically, "If you ever fight someone who uses a gun, the only way to win is to tank bullets or be a bullet timer! There is no other option. Thus, since Cloud fought someone with a gun, he must be one or the other."
I don't think I really need to point out the obvious flaws in that argument.
As for Cloud tanking a bullet in Advent Children, it clearly ricocheted off the goggles. Especially since he takes a shot later in the movie and it goes right through him. Cloud can't deflect bullets with his forehead.
Furthermore, your claim that Beatrix can't tank bullet's is unfounded. She has never been shot at with a gun. How would you know?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So let me get this straight: Assuming that the enemies Cloud fights that wield guns, robots included, shoot said guns is insufficient evidence huh? Well then I suppose Beatrix has no feats.Cloud wins because he has teh better feats, yay.
Also, do you know why armor fell out of style?
It's the same as saying that Beatrix can tank or dodge lightning just because she fights people who have a lightning spell. It's game mechanics.
I don't know where you're going with the armor comment. Armor still exists today, just not in the same way it did long ago.
Vivi never has to acquire the lightning spell to my knowledge. But it was more to the point of "Zidane has daggers but we don't know if he tried to stab her or not so we cants prove she dodge/parried/tanked them!" We can't use gameplay period going by this. And since all her feats are tied to beating the group through gameplay, this gets rid of those.
And why kind of Armor does Beatrix wear? New kind or old?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Vivi never has to acquire the lightning spell to my knowledge. But it was more to the point of "Zidane has daggers but we don't know if he tried to stab her or not so we cants prove she dodge/parried/tanked them!" We can't use gameplay period going by this. And since all her feats are tied to beating the group through gameplay, this gets rid of those.And why kind of Armor does Beatrix wear? New kind or old?
Incorrect. She beat the group canonly. Though it was demonstrated through gameplay. Cloud, on the other hand, has no canon example of him dodging or tanking bullets.
Beatrix doesn't wear armor at all. She has, like, a shirt and tights. What's your point?
According to Beatrix, she fought and killed a hundred soldiers single-handedly. If we use the same logic contained in the Rufus example, then we can assume Beatrix could possibly survive sword slashes/impalements/ and so on. Except...we don't know for 100% certainty how that fight was carried out in the actual story. Same as the Rufus hypothesis. Ergo, neither can be used to support the characters capabilities.
And the mere fact that Beatrix has not shown noticeable stuff on screen (like cutting a rock with her blade or tanking/surviving magical spells), doesn't mean she loses, nor it means she is weaker than Cloud. If we look solely onto Final Fantasy VII, I believe Cloud hasn't done much of the sort either.
Now if we go by the entire Final Fantasy VII Compilation, well, I think is rather unlikely for Beatrix to equal Cloud's feats. Just saying...
Great, so all of Beatrix's feats are unusable! =D
Cloud has lifted things and survived falls, explosions, being hit with big metal wheels, smashing motor bikes, etc etc.
He has the feats. We can judge him. We cannot say the same for Beatrix. She could be amazingly powerful compared to FF VII standards but we haven't seen that. Or she could be pathetically weak(what I think anyway) but we also haven't seen that.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Great, so all of Beatrix's feats are unusable! =DCloud has lifted things and survived falls, explosions, being hit with big metal wheels, smashing motor bikes, etc etc.
He has the feats. We can judge him. We cannot say the same for Beatrix. She could be amazingly powerful compared to FF VII standards but we haven't seen that. Or she could be pathetically weak(what I think anyway) but we also haven't seen that.
What do you mean?
Can you post videos? It's just to have a clear idea.
Killing 100 soldiers is a good achievement, I think.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What do you mean?Can you post videos? It's just to have a clear idea.
Killing 100 soldiers is a good achievement, I think.
We do not know how the battle against Zidane and the Gang went. Therefore, we cannot use it.
Around like 10:00. Cloud survives an explosion. He survives falls throught the games story, into Sector 5, in his home town, etc.
At like 3:20, scripted gameplay requires that this big metal thing hit you.
Killing 100 soldiers is a rather useless feat. Cloud and co killed far more on their journey than 100 things(including machines who would shoot down one hundred sword weilding soldiers fairly easily mind you) but since they aren't getting cred for any battles, Beatrix sure as hell isn't either.
If gameplay is to be disregarded, we will go by cutscenes. Cloud has better feats than Beatrix unless you guys want to prove otherwise.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
We do not know how the battle against Zidane and the Gang went. Therefore, we cannot use it.Around like 10:00. Cloud survives an explosion. He survives falls throught the games story, into Sector 5, in his home town, etc.
At like 3:20, scripted gameplay requires that this big metal thing hit you.
Killing 100 soldiers is a rather useless feat. Cloud and co killed far more on their journey than 100 things(including machines who would shoot down one hundred sword weilding soldiers fairly easily mind you) but since they aren't getting cred for any battles, Beatrix sure as hell isn't either.
1. I said we can't make assumptions such as: ''This character surely tanked and evaded several bullets because he fought a gunner''. That's why Tac gave you the lightning example and I provided the sword impalement one in Beatrix's case.
2. True, he survives falls. I don't know about that explosion, though. In the scene Cloud immediately adopted a defensive stance, around 10:01. We know he has his Buster Sword with him because he just fought that mecha. So, it's more than likely that the blade took the main force of the detonation and not his body. I'm surprised Tifa and Barret weren't even moved by the shockwave. Perhaps the burst wasn't that powerful? Or it is the fact that Cloud was a bit closer to that thing?
3. Cloud had his friends with him. I don't think Aeris also tanked a giant piercing wheel. Beatrix, on the other hand, defeated Zidane, Vivi, Freya and Quina (who kill Black Mages capable of eradicating several armored soldiers as well as causing great amount of damage to a city: Lindblum) by a single sword skill: Stock Break.
4. Yes, but Beatrix killed 100 soldiers by herself. Cloud AND co defeated machines.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
We do not know how the battle against Zidane and the Gang went. Therefore, we cannot use it.
Sure we can. We know that canonly Beatrix defeated Zidane and his team single handed. That's an impressive feat, even if we don't know exactly how the fight went down. So the question is, could Cloud, all by himself, defeat Zidane and his team? I would say no.
Feats don't have to come from cutscenes, you know.
I should also point out that it is never actually shown that Zidane get's stronger than Beatrix. She never looses to the party, and even Steigner late in the game has trouble keeping up with her. Not to mention the fact that she broke the twins spell all on her own. A spell that was suppose to be "unbreakable". Proving she has extensive magical abilities as well as her sword skills.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Around like 10:00. Cloud survives an explosion. He survives falls throught the games story, into Sector 5, in his home town, etc.
That explosion wasn't on Cloud, it more like skinned him. They had to make Cloud close so he could fall through the hole. Though, even if I accept that Cloud could tank a very small explosion (which I don't) he can still get wounded with bullets, so he can get wounded by Beatrix's sword.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
At like 3:20, scripted gameplay requires that this big metal thing hit you.
As Greiver pointed out, that has to hit everyone. Not just Cloud. It's more gameplay mechanics. Unless you want to claim that Aeris can just tank giant wheels as well, in which case apparently everyone in the FF7 universe can tank them.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Killing 100 soldiers is a rather useless feat. Cloud and co killed far more on their journey than 100 things(including machines who would shoot down one hundred sword weilding soldiers fairly easily mind you) but since they aren't getting cred for any battles, Beatrix sure as hell isn't either.If gameplay is to be disregarded, we will go by cutscenes. Cloud has better feats than Beatrix unless you guys want to prove otherwise.
More than just cutscenes are acceptable. I already provided feat's above.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
1. I said we can't make assumptions such as: ''This character surely tanked and evaded several bullets because he fought a gunner''. That's why Tac gave you the lightning example and I provided the sword impalement one in Beatrix's case.2. True, he survives falls. I don't know about that explosion, though. In the scene Cloud immediately adopted a defensive stance, around 10:01. We know he has his Buster Sword with him because he just fought that mecha. So, it's more than likely that the blade took the main force of the detonation and not his body. I'm surprised Tifa and Barret weren't even moved by the shockwave. Perhaps the burst wasn't that powerful? Or it is the fact that Cloud was a bit closer to that thing?
3. Cloud had his friends with him. I don't think Aeris also tanked a giant piercing wheel. Beatrix, on the other hand, defeated Zidane, Vivi, Freya and Quina (who kill Black Mages capable of eradicating several armored soldiers as well as causing great amount of damage to a city: Lindblum) by a single sword skill: Stock Break.
4. Yes, but Beatrix killed 100 soldiers by herself. Cloud AND co defeated machines.
Correct. We cannot assume the opponents used their weapons. So the feats are pointless. 🙂
He took the explosion, no buster sword out. And then fell. That explosion was powerful enough to destroy the concrete/metal beneath it. Cloud was close enough to get caught in it, he was his by it. Not in the center of course though.
They got hit too. They tanked it as well. No matter what you *say* what is *shown* is Cloud and his pals, unprepared, were hit by a giant machines wheels.
Good thing it's not a strict rule of the game that Cloud is *always* in the party. Unless you assume Cloud did nothing to help his friends, which is an out of character interpretation of Cloud. And if you assume that, I will assume Beatrix fought soldiers who were blind, deaf, and dumb.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Sure we can. We know that canonly Beatrix defeated Zidane and his team single handed. That's an impressive feat, even if we don't know exactly how the fight went down. So the question is, could Cloud, all by himself, defeat Zidane and his team? I would say no.Feats don't have to come from cutscenes, you know.
I should also point out that it is never actually shown that Zidane get's stronger than Beatrix. She never looses to the party, and even Steigner late in the game has trouble keeping up with her. Not to mention the fact that she broke the twins spell all on her own. A spell that was suppose to be "unbreakable". Proving she has extensive magical abilities as well as her sword skills.
That explosion wasn't on Cloud, it more like skinned him. They had to make Cloud close so he could fall through the hole. Though, even if I accept that Cloud could tank a very small explosion (which I don't) he can still get wounded with bullets, so he can get wounded by Beatrix's sword.
As Greiver pointed out, that has to hit everyone. Not just Cloud. It's more gameplay mechanics. Unless you want to claim that Aeris can just tank giant wheels as well, in which case apparently everyone in the FF7 universe can tank them.
More than just cutscenes are acceptable. I already provided feat's above.
Not if it can't be proven that they tried. Ludicrous of course, they would obviously try to slice her and dice her and set her on fire. Whatever it took. However, since I can't assume that Rufus tried to shoot Cloud, I will not assume they tried to beat Beatrix.
I couldn't give a crap if he was stronger than her or not unless Zidane has some pretty darn impressive feats that you guys are holding onto for some reason.
Irrelevant. I don't care what they had to do to get the story moving. The thing exploded and destroyed the concrete thing it was standing on. All it did to Cloud was knock him into the air. No, he wasn't in the center, but he tanked an explosion. If you want to deny a feat for no reason other then it doesn't seem likely to you, despite it being both consistent and rather logical in regards to the rest of the series, fine.
Well I guess everyone is very durable. Good thing the heroes are FF7 are shown to be super strong and durable. All of 'em. Except, perhaps, Aerith, who didn't get to appear in more modern works.
You tell me Beatrix beat Zidane. I know this. Now, answer me this: What has *he* done? Oh and if you say he tanked a planet destroying fart, I'm going to call this thread done.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Correct. We cannot assume the opponents used their weapons. So the feats are pointless. 🙂He took the explosion, no buster sword out. And then fell. That explosion was powerful enough to destroy the concrete/metal beneath it. Cloud was close enough to get caught in it, he was his by it. Not in the center of course though.
No. We cannot assume a character is a bullet-timer just because the opponent uses a gun.
Indeed, sometimes the developers like to animate Cloud's sword. They didn't in this case. However, can you explain where is the Buster Sword? Cloud just fought with it and he has it afterwards. The metallic floor was destroyed because the robot was simply standing on it. It had direct contact. And Cloud didn't tank the explosion, he was blown away.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
They got hit too. They tanked it as well. No matter what you *say* what is *shown* is Cloud and his pals, unprepared, were hit by a giant machines wheels.Good thing it's not a strict rule of the game that Cloud is *always* in the party. Unless you assume Cloud did nothing to help his friends, which is an out of character interpretation of Cloud. And if you assume that, I will assume Beatrix fought soldiers who were blind, deaf, and dumb.
Tell me, why does Aeris, I mean, Aerith dies when Sephiroth stabs her with a sword and she doesn't when a giant wheel with metal spikes collides against her? Does that make sense to you? Tac also has a good point, if she can withstand such forces then everyone in the Final Fantasy VII universe can, which is obviously, illogical.
I don't get this. I never assumed Cloud does nothing to help his friends. I said he fights with the help of his friends.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I couldn't give a crap if he was stronger than her or not unless Zidane has some pretty darn impressive feats that you guys are holding onto for some reason.You tell me Beatrix beat Zidane. I know this. Now, answer me this: What has *he* done? Oh and if you say he tanked a planet destroying fart, I'm going to call this thread done.
I think I responded to this. Beatrix defeated Zidane, Vivi, Freya and Quina (who kill Black Mages capable of eradicating several armored soldiers as well as causing great amount of damage to a city: Lindblum) by a single sword skill: Stock Break. No to mention Freya can survive great falls (without hurting herself like Cloud does) and jump higher than Cloud and she still was beaten like nothing by Beatrix.