Beatrix (FF9) vs. Cloud (FF7)

Originally posted by Enfathiel
I don't know. Why would we take more time to gather women's clothing instead of just charging in Corneo's mansion like Cloud wanted?

Because THAT one was a mini game. And it was suppose to be funny. Cloud clmbing a pole is not a joke and not a mini-game.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
The japanese are wierd, man.

This I agree with.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Cloud could always vut incredibly durable stuff. Even as a kid with no mako enhancements or Jenova cells he pierced Before Crisis Sephiroth completely and wieldd the Buster Sword(something only a SOLDIER was supposed to be able to do). And then again, defeating Jenova Death alone means he broke he durability. That's FAAR above building level. So is piercing CC Sephiroth completely.

I'll have to read back over your reasoning here before I can respond. Even so, however, he may have always been strong, but he was not always able to run and jump Advent Children style. He seems to be pretty normal in those terms in FF7.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
And the other part of you post is non-valid. Cloud is only seen flying over Midgar in his top-strongest incarnation yet.

It's not invalid. The developers even admitted there was a difference between FF7 and Advent Children in an interview. It should be on the disk if you have it, I can't find it on Youtube.

Even ignoring the interview, however, your claim that the switch in abilities between FF7 Cloud and Advent Children can be accomplished in two years is absurd. It doesn't matter how strong someone gets. The difference in abilities between the two are in completely different ball parks.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Why would a far weaker Cloud than end of game Cloud(in turn far weaker than AC/C Cloud) not being able to do AC/C Cloud stuff be contradictory?

Because the change in abilities is too drastic. I will admit that Cloud gets stronger throughout the corse of the games and films. But he doesn't get THAT much stronger.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
He's only shown jumping high and pseudo-flying in his strongest incarnation. Not even Second Class Zack showed something simmilar. Heck, not even CC Seph and Genesis - which makes sense them being weaker than AC/C Cloud.

What do you mean? Sephiroth and Genesis and even Angiel in Crisis Core were doing exactly that! Don't you remember the training scene on top of the cannon? Which only furthers my point. Crisis Core was suppose to take place before the events of FF7, yet we see the characters doing Advent Children stunts. Why? Because there was a style change. Not because the characters strengths grew so much that they couldn't do that and then they could.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
You are arguing that an astronomicaly weaker version of AC/C Cloud couldn't do AC/C Cloud stuff is contradictory.

There is no logic there.

Yes there is. What's missing in logic is the claim that Cloud's strength increased so dramatically over the course of two years that he obtained the ability to run up buildings. There is no indication that this is the case. You're just assuming it is because Cloud didn't do it and then he did. Completely ignoring the fact that he only did it in a brand new version of himself that was obviously updated with a new modern style of fighting. He never, at any point in FF7, did Advent Children feats. So tell me, how can you say that Cloud was always suppose to do them, when there is little to no proof of this I have yet seen?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
It kinda is. Because FFVII Cloud had to climb a pole at a determined point, all latter compilation feats are fruits of changes in style, not ability to show substance better.

No, just all the feats that came outside of FF7 are changes in style. You keep claiming that the developers always wanted Cloud to be doing Advent Children feats. But I have seen no indication that this is the case. In fact, I have seen the opposite so far. So if you want to make the claim Cloud is always suppose to be able to fight like Advent Children, then you have to back that up. Where in FF7 did he ever perform remotely close to Advent Children standards?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Hey, Tac, I think most of us provided enough reasons to think that Cloud would likely win. I honestly don't see how Beatrix has a chance. Want to elaborate on that, or you don't think she could win as you stated earlier on page number 2? I remember you said that for you Cloud would win, look:

''I never said Beatrix was stronger than Cloud. In fact, I think Cloud would win. The difference is I actually have good reasons to think Cloud would win''.

So, what are your reasons exactly?

I can't remember exactly why I thought Cloud would win. I think one point was because he beat Sephiroth, though that has been shown to be untrue.

Did I not post them?

Because THAT one was a mini game. And it was suppose to be funny. Cloud clmbing a pole is not a joke and not a mini-game.

Well, yea, according to whom?

They were basically the same, sequences in the story. Finding stuff to dress-up wasnt a mini-game It was an actual story event where you just went and bought stuff to dress-up. It's no different.

I'll have to read back over your reasoning here before I can respond. Even so, however, he may have always been strong, but he was not always able to run and jump Advent Children style. He seems to be pretty normal in those terms in FF7.

Perhaps haven't you considered he canonicaly had not aquired that leve of power at the time? In-fact Cloud has flown in FFVII at the Northern Crater right before giving Sephiroth his materia.

It's not invalid. The developers even admitted there was a difference between FF7 and Advent Children in an interview. It should be on the disk if you have it, I can't find it on Youtube.

Even ignoring the interview, however, your claim that the switch in abilities between FF7 Cloud and Advent Children can be accomplished in two years is absurd. It doesn't matter how strong someone gets. The difference in abilities between the two are in completely different ball parks.

They had a visual change. With the hair, the clothing and the general atmosphere, I know the interview. They even changed the appeareance of materia powers(fire and lightning look kinda wierd).

The didn't say anything about overpowering their characters or giving them wildly inaccurate new powers.

And even so, you're simply basing this off of jumping. It dosen't diminish the fact low-tiers in FFVII easily dodge bullets, something that has nothing to do with jumping and flying ability.

Because the change in abilities is too drastic. I will admit that Cloud gets stronger throughout the corse of the games and films. But he doesn't get THAT much stronger.

I think this is where your problem lies. Between CC and FFVII, Sephiroth aquired the ability to fly from spending time in the lifestream. Cloud also few in the Northern Crater. Why not after his body spent a day in pure-lifestream, akin to Sephiroth?

What do you mean? Sephiroth and Genesis and even Angiel in Crisis Core were doing exactly that! Don't you remember the training scene on top of the cannon? Which only furthers my point. Crisis Core was suppose to take place before the events of FF7, yet we see the characters doing Advent Children stunts. Why? Because there was a style change. Not because the characters strengths grew so much that they couldn't do that and then they could.

No, they only jump higher in CC, they still fall. In AC/C Cloud has much more effective actual flying and Sephiroth as well(could in FVII as well).

Because the change in abilities is too drastic. I will admit that Cloud gets stronger throughout the corse of the games and films. But he doesn't get THAT much stronger.

To begin with, Cloud only had to climb in early stages of the game. How do you know he can't fly in latter stages(which he does).

Secondly, AC/C Cloud is massively stronger than the entire FFVII part combined(FFVII Cloud and Chaos included).

He one-shot Kadaj(someone stated to be at least as powerful as FFVII Sephiroth in the Reunion Files) with a single Braver.

Yes there is. What's missing in logic is the claim that Cloud's strength increased so dramatically over the course of two years that he obtained the ability to run up buildings. There is no indication that this is the case. You're just assuming it is because Cloud didn't do it and then he did. Completely ignoring the fact that he only did it in a brand new version of himself that was obviously updated with a new modern style of fighting. He never, at any point in FF7, did Advent Children feats. So tell me, how can you say that Cloud was always suppose to do them, when there is little to no proof of this I have yet seen?

Again with you basing all his power on jumping. What's up with that? His durability feats are better in FFVII and he has a battle record with FFVII Jenova Death and Sephiroth.

But you think the jumping ability defines his overall power? That's ridiculous, this is not Dragon Ball.

And read my prvious quotes for the rest.

No, just all the feats that came outside of FF7 are changes in style. You keep claiming that the developers always wanted Cloud to be doing Advent Children feats. But I have seen no indication that this is the case. In fact, I have seen the opposite so far. So if you want to make the claim Cloud is always suppose to be able to fight like Advent Children, then you have to back that up. Where in FF7 did he ever perform remotely close to Advent Children standards?

Perhaps:

- Dodging lightning in Gaie's Cliff
- Soloing Jenova Death
- Fighting FFVII Sephiroth in th elifestream
- Dodging machine-gun fire rather easily
- Fighting Weapons
- Spending a day in the lifestream
- Surviving the Mako explosion and fall to the core from the Northern Crater

etc... are all feats that are nearly better than AC/C's(save for tree of them in the movie).

Also, your reasoning is, again, retarded. You want Cloud's weaker version to show as good a feat as his strongest version?

Why would the creator's do that?

Originally posted by TacDavey
I can't remember exactly why I thought Cloud would win. I think one point was because he beat Sephiroth, though that has been shown to be untrue.

Did I not post them?

Nope, you didn't. Well, doesn't matter. Who do you think would win, then?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
- Dodging lightning in Gaie's Cliff
- Soloing Jenova Death
- Fighting FFVII Sephiroth in th elifestream
- Dodging machine-gun fire rather easily
- Fighting Weapons

If it's solely about the original game, then I respectfully disagree.

Cloud never dodged bullets in Final Fantasy VII, neither lightning. Near the beginning of the game we see him running away from Shin-Ra soldiers who opened fire, but missed. Think about it, if the developers were really trying to show Cloud facing, dodging or blocking machine gun projectiles, they would have animated such a sequence. However, they didn't. As for the lightning, you refer to that gust of wind which features some electric sparks, right? You don't have to react to it, just avoid it in order to proceed. Plus, the rest of the characters are there too, which means they also must pass through it and they aren't lightning-timers at all. Now, I do not recall Cloud fighting and killing Jenova-DEATH all by himself. He is with his friends, he is not? They logically helped.

The final battle in the Lifestream. Let's see, firstly, Sephiroth was beaten twice beforehand by the entire party. He was defeated in his two most powerful forms (Bizarro and Safer) by 8 warriors, thus we can safely assume he wasn't at full strength the moment he joined the Lifestream. In fact, I do believe his body was completely destroyed after the second round so his last effort was summon Cloud via the Jenova Cells and manipulate him. Secondly, the fight takes place in an ethereal, intangible realm. In other words, it was a willpower engagement where Sephy attempted to take control over Cloud's will. Not a physical combat. And thirdly, well, Cloud vanquished him with an Omnislash. We all know that even if you let Sephiroth attack first, Cloud still counter-attacks with his Limit Break by default, so I don't think the fight lasted much. The final confrontation just shows how Cloud's will could withstand the influence of a dying Sephiroth, nothing more. Cloud never beat Sephiroth in a real fight. He did in Advent Children because as always Sephiroth wasn't taking him as a serious opponent and was simply toying with him.

And as for the Weapons, we don't know for sure if the characters fought each one of them in canon, but it's quite unlikely if you ask me. After all, they could not successfully confront and consequently defeat two of them directly in the story-line: Ultima and Diamond. I guess it's a good thing that Cloud and his team tried to slow down Diamond when it was heading to the city, but that's it. Not to mention the only Weapons that factually caused real trouble were: Sapphire (killed by the Junon Canon while attempting to attack Midgard), Ultima (assaulted Mideel, then escaped) and finally Diamond, which also tried to destroy Midgard. The remaining ones such as Ruby and Esmerald don't seem to cause any kind of destruction as far as everything goes.

Near the beginning of the game we see him running away from Shin-Ra soldiers who opened fire, but missed. Think about it, if the developers were really trying to show Cloud facing, dodging or blocking machine gun projectiles, they would have animated such a sequence.

Hum, why? No, really do they really need to animate more for the player to get the picture?

Cloud was being fired upon and all the bullets just missed? That's quite alot of bullets. M16(the ones used by Shinra soldiers) fire over 15 bullets per second. It's quite near impossible for all of those to miss Cloud while he was being fired on by 2 people.

It just leads you to believe Cloud reflexed them. No need t animate that when he was moving as well)

As for the lightning, you refer to that gust of wind which features some electric sparks, right? You don't have to react to it, just avoid it in order to proceed. Plus, the rest of the characters are there too, which means they also must pass through it and they aren't lightning-timers at all.

Actually only the Cloud model is required to pass, your friends are there but It's unknown if they did It too.

And for the other part, like above, It's the implication. Just as they don't need to animate a sequence to suggest Cloud doging bullets, they don't need to do that for lightning.

It's easier to just look at the story context - as lighting dosen't numeraly strike the same stop over dozens of times. It was simply meant to be lighting dodging.

And really, that's not a big thing in FFVII. Bolt materia is actually stated to produce actual lightining, and almost every enemy has It.

Now, I do not recall Cloud fighting and killing Jenova-DEATH all by himself. He is with his friends, he is not? They logically helped.

Tifa and a random companion would be with you in that mission.

But, It's not about that, It's because in the scene right before DEATH, Sephiroth acting as Jenova sneak attacks by slicing Cloud from the shoulders down(It didn't hurt him) and the shockwave causing his two other teammates to pass out. Cloud is the only one up seconds later before the Jenova Death fight begins. Meaning in the actual story, he fought It alone. The fact the gameplay has you with teammates is the fact that fight would be near impossible with just Cloud at this point. But his teammates were down when Jenova attacked Cloud.

YouTube video

Let's see, firstly, Sephiroth was beaten twice beforehand by the entire party. He was defeated in his two most powerful forms (Bizarro and Safer) by 8 warriors, thus we can safely assume he wasn't at full strength the moment he joined the Lifestream.

Bro, that was his physical body, Sephiroth's spirit dies and went to the lifestream.

Physical death has no bearing on the spirit(unless you can prove It), he was even keeping Holy from moving, while dead.

In fact, I do believe his body was completely destroyed after the second round so his last effort was summon Cloud via the Jenova Cells and manipulate him.

Maiden describes It as Cloud entering astral form to follow Sephiroth, actually.

Secondly, the fight takes place in an ethereal, intangible realm. In other words, it was a willpower engagement where Sephy attempted to take control over Cloud's will. Not a physical combat.

Wrong.

Sephiroth didn't attempt to control anything, where did you even get that? He was winning - Holy was still being stopped. Cloud died of his own volition to stop Seph. Maiden explains this, again.

Not a physical combat.

And? It was both their spiritual aspects fighting as their physical aspects would. A representation. There's no reason for the physical fight to be any different when the spiritual was a direct representation of It.

And thirdly, well, Cloud vanquished him with an Omnislash. We all know that even if you let Sephiroth attack first, Cloud still counter-attacks with his Limit Break by default, so I don't think the fight lasted much.

Again - read Maiden. They had an entire fight where Sephiroth took the upper hand and then Cloud limit-breaked on him. Even AC/C shows this on a screenshot of them sword-fighting in the lifestream.

The final confrontation just shows how Cloud's will could withstand the influence of a dying Sephiroth, nothing more.

Wrong - again. Sephiroth and Cloud had a spiritual battle in the lifestream. The reason for that is because Cloud needed to stop Sephiroth's soul which was keeping holy from moving. Maiden and CoTL-Black explain that Sephiroth's very own soul was heavily damaged after the spiritual battle and beginning to be absorbed by the lifestream because It was too weak at the time.

And - again - a spiritual battle is a representation of the physical realm. They fought physicaly, even bled, as spirits.

He did in Advent Children because as always Sephiroth wasn't taking him as a serious opponent and was simply toying with him.

Goodness, have people at this palce not read anything of the Compilation material? What you are reffering to is a mistranslation from the Reunion Files. They never said Sephiroth didn't take him seriously or was toying with him(that would destroy Sephiroth's motivation to come back, which was to prove he was stronger than Cloud completely - yet he makes the fight last over 12 hours, and let's Cloud overpower him twice in sword-locks?).

Here's the real quote:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7857/119tee.jpg

It even says the battle was ferocious and that they were dead even.

Also, this fabrication that Sephiroth was toying with his is just that - fabrication. Sephiroth was trying his best to physicaly overpower Cloud, but that ended up deadlocking them.

It's why the Reunion Files say the fight lasted for 12 hours and why Sephiroth was getting fristrated near the end. Sephiroth's whole reason for returning was to make Cloud suffer, he wouldn't drag that out in a 12 hour fight making he seem like Cloud had a shot(because Sephiroth is overpowered twice in the fight and backs off once) and getting fristrated over It by either using two handed sword strikes(something he almost never did in CC and BC) or losing his smirk.
Sephiroth was trying his physical best. It's the most he did to anyone in the compilation. There's no proof he wasn't trying.

And a smirk he lost because he was getting frustrated. Sephiroth makin Cloud seem like he had a chance would be an insult to Sephiroth's ego since he thinks he should just one-shot Cloud because he's angry Cloud as a kid overpowered him.

And as for the Weapons, we don't know for sure if the characters fought each one of them in canon, but it's quite unlikely if you ask me. After all, they could not successfully confront and consequently defeat two of them directly in the story-line: Ultima and Diamond. I guess it's a good thing that Cloud and his team tried to slow down Diamond when it was heading to the city, but that's it. Not to mention the only Weapons that factually caused real trouble were: Sapphire (killed by the Junon Canon while attempting to attack Midgard), Ultima (assaulted Mideel, then escaped) and finally Diamond, which also tried to destroy Midgard. The remaining ones such as Ruby and Esmerald don't seem to cause any kind of destruction as far as everything goes.

Diamons fled from their fight. It was inconclusive.

So did Ultima. And you saying Ultima wasn't killed is half-baked. He's not causing any trouble post-FFVII, what do you think happened to It(It would still be trying to kill humans, something the party wouldn't let)? They killed the Weapon over Cosmo Canyon in the final confrontation with It.

So yea, the party did kill a Weapon - Ultima. And had an inconclusive fight with another, but that was before Ultima when they were stronger.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Well, yea, according to whom?

They were basically the same, sequences in the story. Finding stuff to dress-up wasnt a mini-game It was an actual story event where you just went and bought stuff to dress-up. It's no different.

If you honestly cannot see the difference between the two examples then you are simply deluding yourself. Finding things to dress Cloud up WAS a mini game. You had to go around the town and search for things like a scavenger hunt. Cloud climbing the pole is completely different. There was no goal or conditions you had to meet.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Perhaps haven't you considered he canonicaly had not aquired that leve of power at the time? In-fact Cloud has flown in FFVII at the Northern Crater right before giving Sephiroth his materia.

No, I had considered it, and found any argument supporting it severely lacking. There is no indication that this is the case. Cloud can't fly, first off. As I remember it, he floated up to Sephiroth because the black materia and sephiroth were working some kind of magic on him. Not because he could actually fly. A skill that would have been really handy a couple times throughout the game which he neglected to do.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
They had a visual change. With the hair, the clothing and the general atmosphere, I know the interview. They even changed the appeareance of materia powers(fire and lightning look kinda wierd).

The didn't say anything about overpowering their characters or giving them wildly inaccurate new powers.

Yeah. The whole thing was redone a new style. Fighting style and all.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
And even so, you're simply basing this off of jumping. It dosen't diminish the fact low-tiers in FFVII easily dodge bullets, something that has nothing to do with jumping and flying ability.

What are you talking about low tier people dodging bullets? Who dodged bullets in FF7? It's likely another example of wanking a scene far past what it was suppose to be showing.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
I think this is where your problem lies. Between CC and FFVII, Sephiroth aquired the ability to fly from spending time in the lifestream. Cloud also few in the Northern Crater. Why not after his body spent a day in pure-lifestream, akin to Sephiroth?

I would drop the argument that Cloud can fly. Especially if the only support you have for it is the Northern Crater scene, which had much more variables coming into play than simply Cloud and his abilities. Sephiroth is far more powerful than Cloud. They obviously gave him a bunch more abilities too, since he is the main boss.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
No, they only jump higher in CC, they still fall. In AC/C Cloud has much more effective actual flying and Sephiroth as well(could in FVII as well).

No, Cloud does not fly in Advent Children. He only jumps significantly higher. For one thing, I don't remember him ever changing direction in mid air (With the exception of omnislash at the end, which was a limit break, not something he can do whenever he wants). He was always pushing off of buildings or something.

Look at CC. Those are Advent Children like fights. It painfully obvious.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
To begin with, Cloud only had to climb in early stages of the game. How do you know he can't fly in latter stages(which he does).

Indeed? Yet he needs a parachute at the end as they jump down from the airship. Interesting. If he can fly, why would he need one of those? Again, another example of the directors animating something they didn't need to, so their character can do something he isn't suppose to. Cloud can't fly.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Secondly, AC/C Cloud is massively stronger than the entire FFVII part combined(FFVII Cloud and Chaos included).

He one-shot Kadaj(someone stated to be at least as powerful as FFVII Sephiroth in the Reunion Files) with a single Braver.

What's your point?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Again with you basing all his power on jumping. What's up with that? His durability feats are better in FFVII and he has a battle record with FFVII Jenova Death and Sephiroth.

But you think the jumping ability defines his overall power? That's ridiculous, this is not Dragon Ball.

And read my prvious quotes for the rest.

I don't know why you are getting that I'm basing everything off of jumping. I'm simply using the jumping as a clear example because it is the most noticeable change. I'm talking about the whole package.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
- Dodging lightning in Gaie's Cliff

This is remeniscent of the ball lighting from Ocarina of time. Do you have a video so I can see what you mean?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
- Soloing Jenova Death

He had his team with him. And before you say it, it is VERY easy to make a boss fight possible for one fighter to do. Games do it almost constantly.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
- Fighting FFVII Sephiroth in th elifestream

I've heard mixed thoughts on this one. Not sure what it is suppose to show, since it is made very clear that Sephiroth is, in fact, stronger than Cloud.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
- Dodging machine-gun fire rather easily

Video?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
- Fighting Weapons

Not canon, and he had his team with him.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
- Spending a day in the lifestream

Didn't Tifa fall into the life stream too?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
- Surviving the Mako explosion and fall to the core from the Northern Crater

I don't remember this scene. When did that happen?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Also, your reasoning is, again, retarded. You want Cloud's weaker version to show as good a feat as his strongest version?

Why would the creator's do that?

No I don't. But the jump in power you are suggesting makes no sense, nor is it ever backed up in the original game.

If you honestly cannot see the difference between the two examples then you are simply deluding yourself. Finding things to dress Cloud up WAS a mini game. You had to go around the town and search for things like a scavenger hunt. Cloud climbing the pole is completely different. There was no goal or conditions you had to meet.

And that changes what in the fact It wasn't a minigame as say...the snowboarding?

I'm just usign your own precedents against you. The game deliberately makes convoluted events for the sake of fun.

No, I had considered it, and found any argument supporting it severely lacking. There is no indication that this is the case. Cloud can't fly, first off. As I remember it, he floated up to Sephiroth because the black materia and sephiroth were working some kind of magic on him. Not because he could actually fly. A skill that would have been really handy a couple times throughout the game which he neglected to do.

He was standing on the roof at the northern crater. That's outright defying gravity.

And some kind of magic on him? What? Occam's razor - have you heard of It?

Sephiroth's only ability pertaining to Cloud is controlling his mind via his Cells in Cloud's organism to control Cloud's drives and his actions.

There is no magic for making another person fly upwards. Even more so because Sephiroth was currently immovable and couldn't cast any spells.

Yeah. The whole thing was redone a new style. Fighting style and all.

And that changes nothing in the substance of feats. XI-XIIIV being solid examples.

Like I said, look at substance over style.

What are you talking about low tier people dodging bullets? Who dodged bullets in FF7? It's likely another example of wanking a scene far past what it was suppose to be showing.

I was talking about Before Crisis - which was before any type of style change, before even AC, that had The Legend easily dodging bullets and Tseng keeping up with him.

Both low-tiers.

I would drop the argument that Cloud can fly. Especially if the only support you have for it is the Northern Crater scene, which had much more variables coming into play than simply Cloud and his abilities. Sephiroth is far more powerful than Cloud. They obviously gave him a bunch more abilities too, since he is the main boss.

I think you should start acknowledging the power sources of FFVII.

Cloud's and Sephiroth's power-sources are one and the same: Willpower, Mako and Jenova Cells. If Sephiroth gained his flying power from eitehr of them, so could Cloud. And Sephiroth's influence over his mind and actions at the time in the Northern Crater don't give him and kind of flying ability. Heck Sephiroth was completely pretified at that point.

No, Cloud does not fly in Advent Children. He only jumps significantly higher. For one thing, I don't remember him ever changing direction in mid air (With the exception of omnislash at the end, which was a limit break, not something he can do whenever he wants). He was always pushing off of buildings or something.

He changes directions while hovering inside the building at the start of the fight. And out-right flies upward in the debris Sephiroth sends at him.

Look at CC. Those are Advent Children like fights. It painfully obvious

Again, you looking at style and not substance. The people in CC couldn't keep in air nearly as much as Cloud or completely rise-up without any wings.

Indeed? Yet he needs a parachute at the end as they jump down from the airship. Interesting. If he can fly, why would he need one of those? Again, another example of the directors animating something they didn't need to, so their character can do something he isn't suppose to. Cloud can't fly.

Firstly, that would require efforting some kind of mako-gravitational power for him to defy gravity. Why would he do that instead of just parachuting when everybosy else would(because the team dosen't have any mako).

And you also didn't respond to the otehr part of the phrase.

Cloud only climbed in earlier stages of the game. He later progressed to much higher levels in the end of FFVII(especially after that pant-load of lifestream), and later became stronger in AC/C so he could fly/pseudo-fly.

Even using your own theory(above) It can fit.

What's your point?

Point is you're theory relies on the fact that he didn't become incredibly stronger from the start of FFVII to AC/C, when he did, in-fact, become incredibly stronger.

I don't know why you are getting that I'm basing everything off of jumping. I'm simply using the jumping as a clear example because it is the most noticeable change. I'm talking about the whole package.

Because that's the only point you have shown thus far?

The point is according to you the style change should nescessarily provide better feats.

Yet FFVII had batter durability feats than AC/C Cloud(Mako Explosion + falling down the planet's crust or another one like FFVII Seph's slash being tanked).

The newer FF games prove this. Which is your entire point for Compilation feats being disregarded.

his is remeniscent of the ball lighting from Ocarina of time. Do you have a video so I can see what you mean?

I couldn't find a video that showed the actual instance, but this could cut It for a while,

"There are parts of the Maze where the player must dodge lightning bolts at the right time, or be knocked back and have to fight an enemy." -

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Maze

He had his team with him. And before you say it, it is VERY easy to make a boss fight possible for one fighter to do. Games do it almost constantly.

I already adressed this previously. His team was canonicaly knocked out prior to the battle engagement, unless you can show them getting up in the middle of combat to help Cloud, they were knocked out(even the scene afterwards dosen't indicate they fought the enemy as they were in a completely different room with the entire team instead of teh three Cloud took with him). And while some games do, other games don't. Generalizing is a very poor argument.

I've heard mixed thoughts on this one. Not sure what it is suppose to show, since it is made very clear that Sephiroth is, in fact, stronger than Cloud.

Maiden Who Walks The Planet does, indeed, state Sephiroth hurt him in the battle. But the battle was long and Cloud kept up with him for a time before being damaged which triggered his limit-break. It's Cloud keeping up with a stronger incarnation of CC Sephiroth, then finishing It off when you get mad and your spiritual energy rises to the limit. Beatrix wouldn't be able to accomplish somehting simmilar.

Video?

There are alot, but I'll post one for now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02n9CrDiol0&feature=relmfu
9:00 onwards.

Two people with M16's(15 bullets per second) fail to hit a moving Cloud.

Not canon, and he had his team with him.

Fighting both Diamond Weapon(forcing It to flee) and Ultima Weapon(killing It above Cosmo Canyon) is not fighting Weapons?

And yea, he did have some of his team with him. That dosen't really diminish the fact they took on a gigantic Weapon on the ground before It left and they were unharmed.

Didn't Tifa fall into the life stream too?

You're talking about them falling mako - the liquid form of the lifestream. The Lifestream is not liquid like that nor does It allow Tifa to access Cloud's mind like she did.

Plus, the Lifestream is a current, and falling on It will completely dissolve your body(happened to Seph) and have your soul join the current.

I don't remember this scene. When did that happen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhXKIOtZe0s&feature=related

Remember, Cloud even fell down that hole all the way to the core, where he fell on pure lifestream coursing there. Which then took him to Mideel.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
I couldn't find a video that showed the actual instance, but this could cut It for a while,

"There are parts of the Maze where the player must dodge lightning bolts at the right time, or be knocked back and have to fight an enemy." -

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Maze

I believe that the lightning only appears if u hit the green energy

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Maiden Who Walks The Planet does, indeed, state Sephiroth hurt him in the battle. But the battle was long and Cloud kept up with him for a time before being damaged which triggered his limit-break. It's Cloud keeping up with a stronger incarnation of CC Sephiroth, then finishing It off when you get mad and your spiritual energy rises to the limit. Beatrix wouldn't be able to accomplish somehting simmilar.

The maiden might not be canon

Originally posted by Enfathiel
There are alot, but I'll post one for now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02n9CrDiol0&feature=relmfu
9:00 onwards.

Two people with M16's(15 bullets per second) fail to hit a moving Cloud.

They were missing

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Fighting both Diamond Weapon(forcing It to flee) and Ultima Weapon(killing It above Cosmo Canyon) is not fighting Weapons?

And yea, he did have some of his team with him. That dosen't really diminish the fact they took on a gigantic Weapon on the ground before It left and they were unharmed.

The only time they fought Ultima is when he attacked Mideel

Yeah, I don't see any reason Cloud can't just snap Beatrix's neck with his bare heads in a manner of seconds.

Why this thread exists is beyond me.

I'm not arguing topics outside of Final Fantasy VII, so I won't respond to anything concerning Advent Children. At least for now.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Hum, why? No, really do they really need to animate more for the player to get the picture?

Cloud was being fired upon and all the bullets just missed? That's quite alot of bullets. M16(the ones used by Shinra soldiers) fire over 15 bullets per second. It's quite near impossible for all of those to miss Cloud while he was being fired on by 2 people.

It just leads you to believe Cloud reflexed them. No need t animate that when he was moving as well)

If the developers tried to let the player know that Cloud was dodging machine gun bullets...then they certainly did a terrible job. And yes, I'd say they would need to animate it. It's pretty clear Cloud was just running away from the soldiers without facing the shots. That's what the cutscene leads you to believe. Not: 'Cloud was actually evading 15 bullets per second while being chased'. Now, if you intend to take every single cutscene out of context you shouldn't blame me for disagreeing, then.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Actually only the Cloud model is required to pass, your friends are there but It's unknown if they did It too.

And for the other part, like above, It's the implication. Just as they don't need to animate a sequence to suggest Cloud doging bullets, they don't need to do that for lightning.

It's easier to just look at the story context - as lighting dosen't numeraly strike the same stop over dozens of times. It was simply meant to be lighting dodging.

And really, that's not a big thing in FFVII. Bolt materia is actually stated to produce actual lightining, and almost every enemy has It.

Are you seriously trying to imply that Cloud left his friends behind when we perfectly know they're with him afterwards, or, in other words, all the freaking time? 'Cloud model'? And since when you control all the characters at once? No offense, but you're grasping at straws here. As I said previously, you don't need to react nor evade anything at all, just avoid the wave of wind featuring the lightning magic and then proceed. To put it differently, you have to wait till that gust of wind along with the lightning sparks vanishes in order to advance, otherwise you must fight monsters.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Tifa and a random companion would be with you in that mission.

But, It's not about that, It's because in the scene right before DEATH, Sephiroth acting as Jenova sneak attacks by slicing Cloud from the shoulders down(It didn't hurt him) and the shockwave causing his two other teammates to pass out. Cloud is the only one up seconds later before the Jenova Death fight begins. Meaning in the actual story, he fought It alone. The fact the gameplay has you with teammates is the fact that fight would be near impossible with just Cloud at this point. But his teammates were down when Jenova attacked Cloud.[/youtube]

Why the fight would be 'impossible' with just Cloud in gameplay if you claim Cloud in reality fought Jenova-DEATH alone? That doesn't make any sense. Just because two party members were knocked out before the fight doesn't mean absolutely no one aided Cloud. The developers would have been consistent if Coud really was meant to fight by himself.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Bro, that was his physical body, Sephiroth's spirit dies and went to the lifestream. Physical death has no bearing on the spirit(unless you can prove It), he was even keeping Holy from moving, while dead. Maiden describes It as Cloud entering astral form to follow Sephiroth, actually.

Why not? Sephiroth lost all of his powers the moment he went into the Lifestream, no? So there must have been a connection to his physical body. Sephiroth was beaten to death, he wasn't at his best. He was exhausted, whereas Cloud not so much since he was previously supported in battle by 7 warriors. 'Astral form'? What?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Sephiroth didn't attempt to control anything, where did you even get that? He was winning - Holy was still being stopped. Cloud died of his own volition to stop Seph. Maiden explains this, again.

What do you mean by: 'where did you even get that'? It's in the game, in the scene prior to the final fight where Cloud is influenced by Sephiroth. Cloud possesses Jenova Cells running in his system, therefore Sephiroth could affect him through them. In this particular scenario, however, Cloud could overcome the manipulation. Can you tell me what statement contradicts this?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
And? It was both their spiritual aspects fighting as their physical aspects would. A representation. There's no reason for the physical fight to be any different when the spiritual was a direct representation of It. And - again - a spiritual battle is a representation of the physical realm. They fought physicaly, even bled, as spirits.

Physical does not equal metaphysical. Even if they were fighting like they would in a physical realm (a sword duel), it still doesn't take away the fact that they were just spirits battling via willpower. The bleeding was just a cliche from the creators to let people know that Sephiroth's spirit has been damaged. Something symbolic, nothing more. It has nothing to do with the real world. I repeat, Sephiroth lost all of his powers. It's more than likely that his magical energy was tremendously low as well since he was restraining Holy from fully activating. On the other hand, Cloud had enough stamina to successfully reunite spiritual power, perform his strongest Limit Break and finish the combat.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Again - read Maiden. They had an entire fight where Sephiroth took the upper hand and then Cloud limit-breaked on him. Even AC/C shows this on a screenshot of them sword-fighting in the lifestream.

'Read Maiden'? Why don't you post that thing once and for all? Sephiroth took the upper hand? That's why Omnislash was immediately set into motion allowing Cloud to automatically beat the crap out of Sephiroth, am I correct? I see. Yeah, that's what happened.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Wrong - again. Sephiroth and Cloud had a spiritual battle in the lifestream. The reason for that is because Cloud needed to stop Sephiroth's soul which was keeping holy from moving. Maiden and CoTL-Black explain that Sephiroth's very own soul was heavily damaged after the spiritual battle and beginning to be absorbed by the lifestream because It was too weak at the time.

Where it says that Cloud followed Sephiroth to stop his soul because it was preventing Holy from advancing? I think you're making stuff up. In the scene before the final fight, Barret asks: ''What about Holy?'', ''What's gonna happen to the Planet''? and Cloud responds: ''That...I don't know. Isn't the rest up to the Planet?''. ''Let's go home proud''. That's what he says. He never said: ''Hey! I still gotta catch up with Sephiroth because Holy can't advance if I don't kill his spirit!''. What you say here is unloyal to the actual events of the game, mate.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Diamons fled from their fight. It was inconclusive.

So did Ultima. And you saying Ultima wasn't killed is half-baked. He's not causing any trouble post-FFVII, what do you think happened to It(It would still be trying to kill humans, something the party wouldn't let)? They killed the Weapon over Cosmo Canyon in the final confrontation with It. So yea, the party did kill a Weapon - Ultima. And had an inconclusive fight with another, but that was before Ultima when they were stronger.

Diamond didn't fled. It simply continued its road to Midgar. Besides, I have read that its fight wasn't canonically present in the Japanese version of the game, which means that it never happened. Diamond WEAPON was purely eliminated by the Sister Ray without the FFVII party involvement. Heck, I heard Ruby and Esmerald are not supposed to exist either.

Ultima fled, but it is very debatable whether the party confronted it once again. The WEAPONs' existence are confined with the sole purpose of annihilating any threat imposed to the Planet. They aren't evil beings that wander around to purposely cause pain and destruction to humankind. Do you think Cloud had enough time to worry and chase after a fugitive flying WEAPON while Meteor was approaching to demolish the globe? Frankly that seems quite unlikely to me.

If the developers tried to let the player know that Cloud was dodging machine gun bullets...then they certainly did a terrible job. And yes, I'd say they would need to animate it. It's pretty clear Cloud was just running away from the soldiers without facing the shots. That's what the cutscene leads you to believe. Not: 'Cloud was actually evading 15 bullets per second while being chased'. Now, if you intend to take every single cutscene out of context you shouldn't blame me for disagreeing, then.

I only intend to blame you for denying outright creator implication. It's extremely obvious that people were shooting directly at Cloud - and missing horribly. Again, the creator's have limited graphics at the time and they did make Cloud move. How would the animate him reflecting bullets like Second Class Zack while he was running like that? Add jitters? That would look silly.

Are you seriously trying to imply that Cloud left his friends behind when we perfectly know they're with him afterwards, or, in other words, all the freaking time? 'Cloud model'? And since when you control all the characters at once? No offense, but you're grasping at straws here. As I said previously, you don't need to react nor evade anything at all, just avoid the wave of wind featuring the lightning magic and then proceed. To put it differently, you have to wait till that gust of wind along with the lightning sparks vanishes in order to advance, otherwise you must fight monsters.

That's not what I was saying at all. Either you're being purposefuly dense or just not getting the argument.

Take the instance of FFX lightning timing. All the party passes through the field, but only Tidus actually dodged a bolt. Same thing here.

Abd again, you're ignoring the story context and creator's implication. In the actual story, lightning didn't repeatedly strike the same spot in the same manner exactly. That's just a representation. And of the lightning that was dodged either by Cloud or the party.

Why the fight would be 'impossible' with just Cloud in gameplay if you claim Cloud in reality fought Jenova-DEATH alone? That doesn't make any sense. Just because two party members were knocked out before the fight doesn't mean absolutely no one aided Cloud. The developers would have been consistent if Coud really was meant to fight by himself.

Consistent? The kncoked out two people before-hand. And they were knocked out the moment the fight began.

And what I mean that is Jenova Death at the time would be a very hard boss to take down gameplay wise. You'd never be able to do It with just one character. However that dosen't translate to the actual story-line. In which his friends were knocked out.

Why not? Sephiroth lost all of his powers the moment he went into the Lifestream, no? So there must have been a connection to his physical body. Sephiroth was beaten to death, he wasn't at his best. He was exhausted, whereas Cloud not so much since he was previously supported in battle by 7 warriors. 'Astral form'? What?

You're grasping at straws here with no proof. By your logic, Sephirtoh's souls should've been dead as well since his physical form died. THe spiritual realm and the physical realm don't depend on one another for strenght. Just a bridge for the soul to live in the world.

And that goes against what's shown in FFVII, as said above, Sephiroth's soul was top-notch and waiting for Cloud to come in the lifestream.

What do you mean by: 'where did you even get that'? It's in the game, in the scene prior to the final fight where Cloud is influenced by Sephiroth. Cloud possesses Jenova Cells running in his system, therefore Sephiroth could affect him through them. In this particular scenario, however, Cloud could overcome the manipulation. Can you tell me what statement contradicts this?

*facepalm*

Not only is that never implied in the game(mostly because you see Cloud's counsciousness being dragged out of his body, not manipulated), It's downright wrong because after Clouds soul was in the lifestream, Sephiroth's soul fought his, not manipulated It.

Oh, and read Maiden:

"But only Cloud knew about his retreat. Having been exposed to Jenova's cells, there were traces of Sephiroth's conscious in him - Part of his conscious resonated with it. Cloud could feel the existence of his remnant somewhere inside the Lifestream, continuing to obstruct Holy even now.

Letting only his conscious enter the Sea of Mako, Cloud went in pursuit of him. Riding through the currents, his old enemy was waiting for him. Sephiroth's soul was not yet destroyed and was still a threat to the Planet.

In the world of conscious energy, their swords clashed with each other as they confronted. Sephiroth, the strongest Soldier and the most admired person, tore his long sword across Cloud like a beam of light. But Cloud wasn't afraid. Believing that he had won, Sephiroth raised his long sword for his next strike and at that instant, Cloud struck out at him unleashing all the strength he had. His large blade slashed into Sephiroth's body during that brief opening. His attack opened up another opportunity for him as he struck out at Sephiroth again. It was an unstoppable storm of slashes - fifteen unavoidable attacks one after the other, cut through Sephiroth.

The mad apostate angel smiled boldly. But the damage he had taken was far beyond what he could endure and his spiritual body started to fall apart as he laughed. Beams of light blasted out from inside his body as if they were cutting him apart. Sephiroth was destroyed. Cloud's nightmare that had been continuing since five years ago in Nibelheim finally came to an end.

The Holy that was no longer obstructed immediately came into action." - http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/maiden/page21.php

Physical does not equal metaphysical. Even if they were fighting like they would in a physical realm (a sword duel), it still doesn't take away the fact that they were just spirits battling via willpower. The bleeding was just a cliche from the creators to let people know that Sephiroth's spirit has been damaged. Something symbolic, nothing more. It has nothing to do with the real world. I repeat, Sephiroth lost all of his powers. It's more than likely that his magical energy was tremendously low as well since he was restraining Holy from fully activating. On the other hand, Cloud had enough stamina to successfully reunite spiritual power, perform his strongest Limit Break and finish the combat.

Yea, not really.

YOu see, when every aspect of a spiritual battle plays out as a physical one, It means that's a representation of how a physical battle would ensue.

Unless of course, you have some form of proof that spirtual battles in FFVII are not representation of physical ones, when they fighht physicaly and een bleed. Heck this si exactly like the Kyuubi's fight with Naruto in the manga Naruto.

'Read Maiden'? Why don't you post that thing once and for all? Sephiroth took the upper hand? That's why Omnislash was immediately set into motion allowing Cloud to automatically beat the crap out of Sephiroth, am I correct? I see. Yeah, that's what happened.

Exactly. They had a battle, Sephiroth hurt CLoud, that made Cloud angry and he countered with a limit-break.

How's that not beating Sephiroth? Who could do jack-shit to Cloud's most powerful move?

Where it says that Cloud followed Sephiroth to stop his soul because it was preventing Holy from advancing? I think you're making stuff up. In the scene before the final fight, Barret asks: ''What about Holy?'', ''What's gonna happen to the Planet''? and Cloud responds: ''That...I don't know. Isn't the rest up to the Planet?''. ''Let's go home proud''. That's what he says. He never said: ''Hey! I still gotta catch up with Sephiroth because Holy can't advance if I don't kill his spirit!''. What you say here is unloyal to the actual events of the game, mate.

Has been addressed.

Diamond didn't fled. It simply continued its road to Midgar. Besides, I have read that its fight wasn't canonically present in the Japanese version of the game, which means that it never happened. Diamond WEAPON was purely eliminated by the Sister Ray without the FFVII party involvement. Heck, I heard Ruby and Esmerald are not supposed to exist either.

Ultima fled, but it is very debatable whether the party confronted it once again. The WEAPONs' existence are confined with the sole purpose of annihilating any threat imposed to the Planet. They aren't evil beings that wander around to purposely cause pain and destruction to humankind. Do you think Cloud had enough time to worry and chase after a fugitive flying WEAPON while Meteor was approaching to demolish the globe? Frankly that seems quite unlikely to me.

Actually, I thik you're right. They never fought Diamond in the original, they just starred at It and waited for the cannon.

And Ultima fled when Cloud and Tifa were not even there fighting. And yes the party would see them as "evil" when they are also annihiliating humans because they see them as threats to the planet(mako energy).

And you think Cloud and the party would've let the Weapon run amok and kill millions? Frankly, THAT sounds unlikely to me. Especially since millions were not killed by Ultima. What do you suppose happened to It?

It was killed by Cloud's party of course. And that even shows the party can react to the massively hypersonic weapon.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
And that changes what in the fact It wasn't a minigame as say...the snowboarding?

I'm just usign your own precedents against you. The game deliberately makes convoluted events for the sake of fun.

For the sake of fun? How can you honestly compare a snowboarding mini game to climbing a pole?! Like I said, you don't even have to press any buttons! None at all! There is no game there is no joke there is no reason for it to be there.

Are you being serious right now or are you trolling?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
He was standing on the roof at the northern crater. That's outright defying gravity.

And some kind of magic on him? What? Occam's razor - have you heard of It?

Occam's Razor? Explain to me how that fits into this debate.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Sephiroth's only ability pertaining to Cloud is controlling his mind via his Cells in Cloud's organism to control Cloud's drives and his actions.

There is no magic for making another person fly upwards. Even more so because Sephiroth was currently immovable and couldn't cast any spells.

The same power that was causing Cloud to give Sephiroth the materia is what cause him to fly/defy gravity.

Take a look at the situation. Have you ever seen Cloud walk on ceilings or fly at any other point in the game? No. So the question is why is that situation different from other situations in the game? The answer: Cloud was being controlled by Sephiroth. That's the one variable that is different from any of the other cases in which Cloud should have flown but didn't. So logically, that must be the cause of him doing that.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
And that changes nothing in the substance of feats. XI-XIIIV being solid examples.

Like I said, look at substance over style.

In this case we are looking at style. That's kinda the point. Somewhere along the way Final Fantasy went through a change in fighting style. Originally, the style was more realistic. Then it changed drastically and ditched the limits of what normal people should be able to do.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
I was talking about Before Crisis - which was before any type of style change, before even AC, that had The Legend easily dodging bullets and Tseng keeping up with him.

Both low-tiers.

What do you mean? FF7 was pretty much the only example in the series that didn't have the style change.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
I think you should start acknowledging the power sources of FFVII.

Cloud's and Sephiroth's power-sources are one and the same: Willpower, Mako and Jenova Cells. If Sephiroth gained his flying power from eitehr of them, so could Cloud. And Sephiroth's influence over his mind and actions at the time in the Northern Crater don't give him and kind of flying ability. Heck Sephiroth was completely pretified at that point.

Then how was he making Cloud give him the materia? What makes you say that the same power that was controlling Cloud didn't account for the flying? Especially since Cloud never does it again at any point. Like I said before, Cloud only ever flies when he was under Sephiroths control.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
He changes directions while hovering inside the building at the start of the fight. And out-right flies upward in the debris Sephiroth sends at him.

I looked through the fight and couldn't find what you were talking about, though I did find something interesting. Towards the middle of the fight, Cloud has to stab his sword into the side of a building and stand on it. Even when debris is coming down at him, he has to use another sword to make a little foot hold for himself. That's kinda an odd thing to do for someone who can fly, don't you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWItr_49MHA&feature=related

It;s right after 3:11. Sorry the quality isn't great.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Again, you looking at style and not substance. The people in CC couldn't keep in air nearly as much as Cloud or completely rise-up without any wings.

The style is what is important! That's what changed from FF7 to the Advent Children and Crisis Core! Crisis Core has it's characters doing far more than FF7 characters could do, even though it's suppose to be taking place BEFORE FF7. Why? Because of the style change!

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Firstly, that would require efforting some kind of mako-gravitational power for him to defy gravity. Why would he do that instead of just parachuting when everybosy else would(because the team dosen't have any mako).

It's clear your grasping at straws because you're just making things up now. How do you know how much effort it takes to fly? How do you know it takes effort at all? You need to back up everything in this post. You can't just make claims like that and expect people to take it seriously.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
And you also didn't respond to the otehr part of the phrase.

Cloud only climbed in earlier stages of the game. He later progressed to much higher levels in the end of FFVII(especially after that pant-load of lifestream), and later became stronger in AC/C so he could fly/pseudo-fly.

Even using your own theory(above) It can fit.

No it can't. The jump in power you are claiming took place is far beyond the realm of reasonable. Especially when there is no evidence it took place. Cloud got stronger, yes. Did he go from having to ride trains and climb poles to being able to run up walls and fly? Not likely.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Point is you're theory relies on the fact that he didn't become incredibly stronger from the start of FFVII to AC/C, when he did, in-fact, become incredibly stronger.

Incorrect. I fully accept that Cloud became stronger. I've said that time and time again. I find your leap of strength unreasonable. It would be less unreasonable if there was any indication it took place, but you have been unable to provide any example from FF7 to back it up.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Because that's the only point you have shown thus far?

The point is according to you the style change should nescessarily provide better feats.

Yet FFVII had batter durability feats than AC/C Cloud(Mako Explosion + falling down the planet's crust or another one like FFVII Seph's slash being tanked).

The newer FF games prove this. Which is your entire point for Compilation feats being disregarded.

I don't know what you mean here. Whether or not FF7 has better durability feats seems irrelevant to me. I'm not claiming the change in style MUST have people performing Cloud feats. But there WAS a change in style, and Cloud got changed to a new version.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
I couldn't find a video that showed the actual instance, but this could cut It for a while,

"There are parts of the Maze where the player must dodge lightning bolts at the right time, or be knocked back and have to fight an enemy." -

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Maze

I did find a video. And it seems to me it isn't so much you dodging lighting as it is lighting striking specific parts of the field and you making sure you aren't there when it does. Not to mention the fact that your whole party is with you, as I think Greiver pointed out. And the fact that Cloud is used as the main model does not mean the party simply isn't there.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
I already adressed this previously. His team was canonicaly knocked out prior to the battle engagement, unless you can show them getting up in the middle of combat to help Cloud, they were knocked out(even the scene afterwards dosen't indicate they fought the enemy as they were in a completely different room with the entire team instead of teh three Cloud took with him). And while some games do, other games don't. Generalizing is a very poor argument.

They were knocked down. That doesn't mean they were out of the fight completely. And I'm not generalizing. Your refutation of the team being with you was that they had to throw the party in or the fight would be impossible. I pointed out that this isn't the case, however, as it's easy to make a fight acceptable for one person. So we're back to square one. How do you explain the fact that your team was with you in that fight? Are you claiming that the developers didn't want to make the fight acceptable for one person and so they decided to make the boss hard and throw in characters that weren't suppose to be there for the sake of gameplay? Because if that IS your argument, then the next step is to ask what evidence you have to support this?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Maiden Who Walks The Planet does, indeed, state Sephiroth hurt him in the battle. But the battle was long and Cloud kept up with him for a time before being damaged which triggered his limit-break. It's Cloud keeping up with a stronger incarnation of CC Sephiroth, then finishing It off when you get mad and your spiritual energy rises to the limit. Beatrix wouldn't be able to accomplish somehting simmilar.

Who or what is Maiden Who Walks The Planet and what makes you think Beatrix couldn't do something similar?

cont...

cont...

Originally posted by Enfathiel
There are alot, but I'll post one for now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02n9CrDiol0&feature=relmfu
9:00 onwards.

Two people with M16's(15 bullets per second) fail to hit a moving Cloud.

A moving target is hard to hit. Have you ever seen any show or movie that ever uses guns? There is a difference between Cloud getting shot at, reacting to it, and moving out of the way of the bullet, and Cloud running while being shot at and not getting hit. The first one is an example of bullet timing. The second is an example of almost every encounter with gun wielding enemies ever presented in any movie, game, or show ever.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Fighting both Diamond Weapon(forcing It to flee) and Ultima Weapon(killing It above Cosmo Canyon) is not fighting Weapons?

And yea, he did have some of his team with him. That dosen't really diminish the fact they took on a gigantic Weapon on the ground before It left and they were unharmed.

Actually, it most certainly diminishes the feat. People like to give all the credit to one character when that one character had a whole group of people helping him. And you never canonly kill any weapon.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhXKIOtZe0s&feature=related

Remember, Cloud even fell down that hole all the way to the core, where he fell on pure lifestream coursing there. Which then took him to Mideel.

This was a video of the weapons popping out of the crater. I don't see the relevance here.

"In other Ultimania guides which list other Final Fantasy VII media including the On The Way to a Smile series, Hoshi wo Meguru Otome has been consistently omitted, its existence seemingly ignored by Square Enix. Furthermore, much of the material in the novella seems to contradict established canon."

From the FF7 wiki.

So this thread needs to be renamed Cloud vs Haters. Because Beatrix is so uninvolved in the thread.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
I only intend to blame you for denying outright creator implication. It's extremely obvious that people were shooting directly at Cloud - and missing horribly. Again, the creator's have limited graphics at the time and they did make Cloud move. How would the animate him reflecting bullets like Second Class Zack while he was running like that? Add jitters? That would look silly.

'Creator implication'? There is no such thing, it's you making radical claims by taking stuff out of context. It's irrelevant to assume 'how' they 'would' have animated it, the matter of fact is that they animated a chase. Not a guy facing shots. I'm talking entirely about Final Fantasy VII, where Cloud has never dodged bullets in the slightest. But now that you mention Zack, didn't the soldiers who opened fire at him in the opening sequence of Crisis Core also missed their main target? Yes, they did. This fully destroys your: ''They failed? It's impossible!'' gibberish.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
That's not what I was saying at all. Either you're being purposefuly dense or just not getting the argument. Take the instance of FFX lightning timing. All the party passes through the field, but only Tidus actually dodged a bolt. Same thing here. Abd again, you're ignoring the story context and creator's implication. In the actual story, lightning didn't repeatedly strike the same spot in the same manner exactly. That's just a representation. And of the lightning that was dodged either by Cloud or the party.

It's not the same thing at all.

The Final Fantasy X party must hide below lightning rods to protect themselves from thunders. The VII team must wait until the barrier of wind with the sparks is gone in order to advance.

Where is the relevance in this analogy?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Consistent? The kncoked out two people before-hand. And they were knocked out the moment the fight began.

And what I mean that is Jenova Death at the time would be a very hard boss to take down gameplay wise. You'd never be able to do It with just one character. However that dosen't translate to the actual story-line. In which his friends were knocked out.

Two people, not seven. And even so, what makes you think they were sleeping during the whole fight? Prove it.

Not really, if according to you Cloud was strong enough to engage Jenova-DEATH in battle in the actually story by himself, I don't see why the creators wouldn't be able to recreate the fight in gameplay. They are the creators. Truthfully your argument makes no sense. Are you trolling, man?

Originally posted by Enfathiel
You're grasping at straws here with no proof. By your logic, Sephirtoh's souls should've been dead as well since his physical form died. THe spiritual realm and the physical realm don't depend on one another for strenght. Just a bridge for the soul to live in the world. And that goes against what's shown in FFVII, as said above, Sephiroth's soul was top-notch and waiting for Cloud to come in the lifestream.

I never said Sephiroth dies. He wasn't dissolved into the Lifestream, and your link forthright states that he retreated, not died. All I'm saying is that since he was beaten to ''death'' (metaphorically speaking), he lost all of his powers. And hence he lost his powers and forms, then there must have been a connection with his physical body.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
*facepalm*

Not only is that never implied in the game(mostly because you see Cloud's counsciousness being dragged out of his body, not manipulated), It's downright wrong because after Clouds soul was in the lifestream, Sephiroth's soul fought his, not manipulated It.

Oh, and read Maiden:

"But only Cloud knew about his retreat. Having been exposed to Jenova's cells, there were traces of Sephiroth's conscious in him - Part of his conscious resonated with it. Cloud could feel the existence of his remnant somewhere inside the Lifestream, continuing to obstruct Holy even now.

Letting only his conscious enter the Sea of Mako, Cloud went in pursuit of him. Riding through the currents, his old enemy was waiting for him. Sephiroth's soul was not yet destroyed and was still a threat to the Planet.

In the world of conscious energy, their swords clashed with each other as they confronted. Sephiroth, the strongest Soldier and the most admired person, tore his long sword across Cloud like a beam of light. But Cloud wasn't afraid. Believing that he had won, Sephiroth raised his long sword for his next strike and at that instant, Cloud struck out at him unleashing all the strength he had. His large blade slashed into Sephiroth's body during that brief opening. His attack opened up another opportunity for him as he struck out at Sephiroth again. It was an unstoppable storm of slashes - fifteen unavoidable attacks one after the other, cut through Sephiroth.

The mad apostate angel smiled boldly. But the damage he had taken was far beyond what he could endure and his spiritual body started to fall apart as he laughed. Beams of light blasted out from inside his body as if they were cutting him apart. Sephiroth was destroyed. Cloud's nightmare that had been continuing since five years ago in Nibelheim finally came to an end.

The Holy that was no longer obstructed immediately came into action." - http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/maiden/page21.php

So far, that article doesn't seem to contradict what I said. It states that since Cloud had Jenova Cells, he was the only one who could feel Sephiroth's presence in the Lifestream. The: 'Cloud went in pursuit of him' part, well, it's inconsistent or redacted inaccurately. The game makes clear that Sephiroth is dragging Cloud into the Lifestream (mentally manipulating him).

''In the world of conscious energy'' = No physical/real world, ''their swords clashed with each other as they confronted'.

It also specifies that Sephiroth thought he had won (because he was actually winning), till Cloud finished him off thanks to the ethereal Omnislash. Evidently Sephiroth's arrogance was also present in this battle. Interesting.

Now, according to the quote from the Final Fantasy Wiki that Kuja9001 presented, the materials that you're currently delivering to this discussion such as: 'Maiden' aren't being considered canon. You may want to elaborate on this.

Originally posted by Enfathiel YOu see, when every aspect of a spiritual battle plays out as a physical one, It means that's a representation of how a physical battle would ensue.

Unless of course, you have some form of proof that spirtual battles in FFVII are not representation of physical ones, when they fighht physicaly and een bleed. Heck this si exactly like the Kyuubi's fight with Naruto in the manga Naruto.

I bolded the important part. Nothing of what you say will take away the fact the battle took place in a non-physical realm.

Negative. If you claim that the spiritual world in Final Fantasy VII works exactly as the physical one, then the burden of proof is on you. By the way, your link never gave any data about blood in the Lifestream. But if there's in the game, as I mentioned earlier, it is symbolic. Nothing literally.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Exactly. They had a battle, Sephiroth hurt CLoud, that made Cloud angry and he countered with a limit-break.

How's that not beating Sephiroth? Who could do jack-shit to Cloud's most powerful move?

Read above. What's exactly your point? They were still in a methaphysical space.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Actually, I thik you're right. They never fought Diamond in the original, they just starred at It and waited for the cannon.

And Ultima fled when Cloud and Tifa were not even there fighting. And yes the party would see them as "evil" when they are also annihiliating humans because they see them as threats to the planet(mako energy).

And you think Cloud and the party would've let the Weapon run amok and kill millions? Frankly, THAT sounds unlikely to me. Especially since millions were not killed by Ultima. What do you suppose happened to It?

It was killed by Cloud's party of course. And that even shows the party can react to the massively hypersonic weapon.

Ultima just fled, it's not like it was afraid of something. You missed the point badly, what I said was that the WEAPONs do not attack without reason, they were constructed to protect the Planet, that's why their main objective was Midgar, also known as the metropolis eater of planetary energy. Shin-Ra may see these creatures as evil entities, yes, but realistically these guys are the true and biggest threat to humanity for indiscriminately draining the Planet's vitality. Now, there isn't factual evidence in the story-line suggesting that Ultima caused noticeable destruction after it flew. It didn't even headed towards Midgar. I see no reason to think the characters went after it when they had no clue about its location and when they never made any sort of reference nor indication about said WEAPON after the Mideel incident to begin with. Cloud and his team just headed to the Underwater Reactor without thinking it twice.

Oh god this thread is sickening.

Question: Cloud and Co fight people who use bullets? What happens to the bullets when they are fired?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
'Now, according to the quote from the Final Fantasy Wiki that Kuja9001 presented, the materials that you're currently delivering to this discussion such as: 'Maiden' aren't being considered canon. You may want to elaborate on this.

Even the place where I got get must of my ff7 info said that
"the maiden" might not be canon because it contradicts some stuff.

Quote from one of the translators

"It’s never officially been mentioned as a canon material (or even mentioned at all) in any of the later Ultimanias, even though it was published in Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Ω. However, it’s never been specifically stated that it isn’t canon either. Perhaps, most importantly though, it isn’t released as a part of the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII, whereas OTWTAS is. For the most part within the community, this is why it’s not considered canon to the Compilation, and explains why it’s not 100% accurate to the events within the Compilation (like her reaction to Zack), in additon to the fact that it was written well in advance of Crisis Core. It’s the most ambiguous title for these reasons, and rather problematic in that sense, especially when trying to determine if it’s canon."

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Oh god this thread is sickening.

Question: Cloud and Co fight people who use bullets? What happens to the bullets when they are fired?

What do you mean?

Well you fight enemies that shoot at you. So my question is, what happens to the bullets shot at you?

Obviously he dodged them. Clearly this makes him a bullet-timer.

CLEARLY!