Beatrix (FF9) vs. Cloud (FF7)

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No. We cannot assume a character is a bullet-timer just because the opponent uses a gun.

Indeed, sometimes the developers like to animate Cloud's sword. They didn't in this case. However, can you explain where is the Buster Sword? Cloud just fought with it and he has it afterwards. The metallic floor was destroyed because the robot was simply standing on it. It had direct contact. And Cloud didn't tank the explosion, he was blown away.

Even if it is consistent with later appearances of said characters huh? Bias.

And other times, such as when Cloud doesn't have it out, they don't need to animate it. But of course the sword must be there. It's just invisible. Cloud stuck it in hammer space where he always puts it. He didn't block with it. Cloud was next to the explosion, was knocked up by the explosion, but didn't appear to be significantly damaged by the explosion that happened mere inches from his face.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Tell me, why does Aeris, I mean, Aerith dies when Sephiroth stabs her with a sword and she doesn't when a giant wheel with metal spikes collides against her? Does that make sense to you? Tac also has a good point, if she can withstand such forces then everyone in the Final Fantasy VII universe can, which is obviously, illogical.

I don't get this. I never assumed Cloud does nothing to help his friends. I said he fights with the help of his friends.

One, Sephiroth is stronger than that big metal wheel thing, which is established. Two, Aerith wasn't expecting an attack from Sephy. It makes perfect sense because it is consistent. And you seem to think everyone in the FF VII universe is at the same level of strength. The canon proves otherwise. There are people who run away from Bahamut and then there are those who jump around skyscrapers fighting it. Cloud and co go into the later category.

Defeating a machine with help is better than defeating 100 red shirts by themselves. In fact, assuming random encounters are canon, each of the Avalanche gang has a better record than Beatrix.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I think I responded to this. Beatrix defeated Zidane, Vivi, Freya and Quina by a single sword skill: Stock Break. No to mention Freya can survive great falls (without hurting herself like Cloud does) and jump higher than Cloud and she still was beaten like nothing by Beatrix.

Well at least you are giving feats for the people she beats up. Though I would like to see these great falls Freya survives and compare them to an explosion in the face. As for jumping higher than Cloud, there wasn't much jumping in FF VII. Advent Children on the other hand...

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not if it can't be proven that they tried. Ludicrous of course, they would obviously try to slice her and dice her and set her on fire. Whatever it took. However, since I can't assume that Rufus tried to shoot Cloud, I will not assume they tried to beat Beatrix.

😆
We can know they tried. We can know that Rufus tried to. What we can't know is if Rufus shot at Cloud and Cloud used super speed abilities to dodge out of the way of the bullets. THAT specific situation we can't know. We can know Rufus tried to shoot at Cloud, of course. I never claimed otherwise. Are you saying that if you fight someone who has a gun and is trying to kill you, literally the ONLY way to win is to be a bullet timer? There is no other option? No other way that fight could have gone? Honestly? Because MOST of the people who fight people with guns AREN'T bullet timers!

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I couldn't give a crap if he was stronger than her or not unless Zidane has some pretty darn impressive feats that you guys are holding onto for some reason.

There is actually a thread about Zidane vs Cloud. The jury is still out on that one, but I'm not going to get into it here, as this thread is about Beatrix vs Cloud, not Zidane vs Cloud. The point is, it's debatable if Zidane can beat Cloud. And Beatrix defeated Zidane and his party. Quite easily in fact.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Irrelevant. I don't care what they had to do to get the story moving. The thing exploded and destroyed the concrete thing it was standing on. All it did to Cloud was knock him into the air. No, he wasn't in the center, but he tanked an explosion. If you want to deny a feat for no reason other then it doesn't seem likely to you, despite it being both consistent and rather logical in regards to the rest of the series, fine.

Again, even if I accept that, that doesn't really do much for Cloud considering bullets still hurt him, which means Beatrix's sword will still hurt him.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well I guess everyone is very durable. Good thing the heroes are FF7 are shown to be super strong and durable. All of 'em. Except, perhaps, Aerith, who didn't get to appear in more modern works.

Oh, really? I didn't know the rest of the party had shown abilities to tank giant metal wheels. Outside of the example you gave, which was gameplay mechanics for the most part. Though, sticking with the point above, Cloud can still be hurt by normal weapons anyway. At best this is an inconsistency.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You tell me Beatrix beat Zidane. I know this. Now, answer me this: What has *he* done? Oh and if you say he tanked a planet destroying fart, I'm going to call this thread done.

🤨

If you're referring to Ultima, no. I wasn't going to say that. However, as I explained before, Zidane all by himself can debatably stand against Cloud. He's a weapon designed to destroy planets. And he's capable of being stronger than Kuja, who was the one who destroyed the planet you were talking about.

And again, Beatrix defeated not only Zidane, but his party as well.

Originally posted by TacDavey
We can know they tried. We can know that Rufus tried to. What we can't know is if Rufus shot at Cloud and Cloud used super speed abilities to dodge out of the way of the bullets. THAT specific situation we can't know. We can know Rufus tried to shoot at Cloud, of course. I never claimed otherwise. Are you saying that if you fight someone who has a gun and is trying to kill you, literally the ONLY way to win is to be a bullet timer? There is no other option? No other way that fight could have gone? Honestly? Because MOST of the people who fight people with guns AREN'T bullet timers!

But then again, Cloud and Co aren't like most people. However, now you see where I'm coming from. Now that we know bullets would indeed shoot bullets, use reasoning to figure out what happens. 2 results would be: He hits or doesn't hit. If he hits them, Cloud survived, which means he can take bullets. This is the most likely event giving Rufus is likely a good shot. Or he misses Cloud because Cloud either dodged the shot(consistent with the canon) or Rufus outright missed(which seems to be the more likely of the two).

Originally posted by TacDavey
Again, even if I accept that, that doesn't really do much for Cloud considering bullets still hurt him, which means Beatrix's sword will still hurt him.

Bullets > Swords actually. But to determine the damage done by Beatrix, we would need a strength feat(her lifting or cutting something is fine) for her.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh, really? I didn't know the rest of the party had shown abilities to tank giant metal wheels. Outside of the example you gave, which was gameplay mechanics for the most part. Though, sticking with the point above, Cloud can still be hurt by normal weapons anyway. At best this is an inconsistency.

Of course. Well, the five possible members at the time. But there are several feats. For example, they can hold their breath for 20 minutes while fighting a powerful monster under who knows how many pounds of water. They aren't human. Cloud getting hurt by bullets would be the inconsistency(even though I attribute it to him being heavily weakened from the Sephy fight).

Originally posted by TacDavey
If you're referring to Ultima, no. I wasn't going to say that. However, as I explained before, Zidane all by himself can debatably stand against Cloud. He's a weapon designed to destroy planets. And he's capable of being stronger than Kuja, who was the one who destroyed the planet you were talking about.

And again, Beatrix defeated not only Zidane, but his party as well.

Well we can't really argue that without feats to back him up. Granted, if Zidane showed power equivalent to Kuja's than sure, perhaps we'd have something. But I've not been shown that.

How strong were they at the time of defeat?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
For example, they can hold their breath for 20 minutes while fighting a powerful monster under who knows how many pounds of water. They aren't human.

Fighting Emerald weapon isn't canon.

But they can do it.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Even if it is consistent with later appearances of said characters huh? Bias.

And other times, such as when Cloud doesn't have it out, they don't need to animate it. But of course the sword must be there. It's just invisible. Cloud stuck it in hammer space where he always puts it. He didn't block with it. Cloud was next to the explosion, was knocked up by the explosion, but didn't appear to be significantly damaged by the explosion that happened mere inches from his face.

I thought we were using Final Fantasy VII. And I was talking in general.

That makes no sense. Why the sword would disappear and then Cloud would be protecting himself with his bare arm instead? The robot exploded near his face, not in his face. And again, Cloud was immediately launched in the air like a rag doll.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
One, Sephiroth is stronger than that big metal wheel thing, which is established. Two, Aerith wasn't expecting an attack from Sephy. It makes perfect sense because it is consistent. And you seem to think everyone in the FF VII universe is at the same level of strength. The canon proves otherwise. There are people who run away from Bahamut and then there are those who jump around skyscrapers fighting it. Cloud and co go into the later category.

Defeating a machine with help is better than defeating 100 red shirts by themselves. In fact, assuming random encounters are canon, each of the Avalanche gang has a better record than Beatrix.

Aerith can be killed by swords, so she cannot possibly survive being hit by giant metallic spikes. Cloud can be hurt by bullets, you forgot? Is Aerith stronger than him? Of course not. Indeed, some people run away from enemies they can't usually confront. Like Aerith running away from Shin-Ra soldiers at the church, for instance. And I'm still ignoring the fact that you're using a gameplay sequence as argument.

Why? Explain that to me.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well at least you are giving feats for the people she beats up. Though I would like to see these great falls Freya survives and compare them to an explosion in the face. As for jumping higher than Cloud, there wasn't much jumping in FF VII. Advent Children on the other hand...

Don't remember the exact part, it's a small cut-scene in Lindblum. Freya was standing in a high building, then she jumped off of it and fell.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
or Rufus outright missed(which seems to be the more likely of the two).

Or Cloud cut the gun in half before he got a shot off. Or Cloud ducked behind some cover. Or, as you said, Rufus missed. A moving target is hard to hit. Or any other of the infinite possibilities that could have happened in that fight. Again, you are claiming that bullet timing or tanking bullets is literally the only option available when fighting someone with a gun, which is blatantly false.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Bullets > Swords actually. But to determine the damage done by Beatrix, we would need a strength feat(her lifting or cutting something is fine) for her.

It shows he doesn't have diamond skin, as many people try to claim characters from video games have.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course. Well, the five possible members at the time. But there are several feats. For example, they can hold their breath for 20 minutes while fighting a powerful monster under who knows how many pounds of water. They aren't human. Cloud getting hurt by bullets would be the inconsistency(even though I attribute it to him being heavily weakened from the Sephy fight).

But there is no evidence of that that was the reason. You are basing that off of nothing more than Cloud tanking a metal wheel(with everyone else) in a gameplay scene and the ability to hold their breath, which is MORE gameplay mechanics and not even canon.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well we can't really argue that without feats to back him up. Granted, if Zidane showed power equivalent to Kuja's than sure, perhaps we'd have something. But I've not been shown that.

How strong were they at the time of defeat?

Zidane's trance form is pretty powerful, and he and his team defeated Trance Kuja and that Necron thing or whatever. And Beatrix defeated a slightly weaker team single handed and with ease. And even after the last time you fight her she shows herself to still be on another level from Steigner later in the game. You are never actually shown to be stronger than her at any point. Technically, it's hard to put a cap on her abilities since she literally never looses a single fight in the game with anyone, or even breaks a sweat doing it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I thought we were using Final Fantasy VII. And I was talking in general.

That makes no sense. Why the sword would disappear and then Cloud would be protecting himself with his bare arm instead? The robot exploded near his face, not in his face. And again, Cloud was immediately launched in the air like a rag doll.

We are. But, I can use the rest of the canon to support consistency.

He put it away. And of course Cloud was flung up, he got hit by an explosion.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Aerith can be killed by swords, so she cannot possibly survive being hit by giant metallic spikes. Cloud can be hurt by bullets, you forgot? Is Aerith stronger than him? Of course not. Indeed, some people run away from enemies they can't usually confront. Like Aerith running away from Shin-Ra soldiers at the church, for instance. And I'm still ignoring the fact that you're using a gameplay sequence as argument.

Why? Explain that to me.

Unless you ignore the fact that Sephiroth is stronger that any machine. Cloud can also take bullets with minimal damage being done. Aerith does run from those guys but she doesn't *have* to. And please don't try to make it sound like gameplay, scripted mind you, can't be used for feats.

Take a gundam with a machine gun vs 100 armored knights with swords. The gundam will shoot through armor easily whereas the knights(who have no strength feats to their name) will be unable to actually damage the gundam made of metal.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Don't remember the exact part, it's a small cut-scene in Lindblum. Freya was standing in a high building, then she jumped off of it and fell.

Was the building 50 meters up?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Or Cloud cut the gun in half before he got a shot off. Or Cloud ducked behind some cover. Or, as you said, Rufus missed. A moving target is hard to hit. Or any other of the infinite possibilities that could have happened in that fight. Again, you are claiming that bullet timing or tanking bullets is literally the only option available when fighting someone with a gun, which is blatantly false.

It shows he doesn't have diamond skin, as many people try to claim characters from video games have.

But there is no evidence of that that was the reason. You are basing that off of nothing more than Cloud tanking a metal wheel(with everyone else) in a gameplay scene and the ability to hold their breath, which is MORE gameplay mechanics and not even canon.

Zidane's trance form is pretty powerful, and he and his team defeated Trance Kuja and that Necron thing or whatever. And Beatrix defeated a slightly weaker team single handed and with ease. And even after the last time you fight her she shows herself to still be on another level from Steigner later in the game. You are never actually shown to be stronger than her at any point. Technically, it's hard to put a cap on her abilities since she literally never looses a single fight in the game with anyone, or even breaks a sweat doing it.

Well there really was no cover to get behind and ze doggy would have casted a barrier around dear Rufus. Not to mention, Cloud doesn't seem to move very much in these fights. And that is not what I'm claiming. Those are merely the most likely outcomes based on the consistency with the FF VII universe.

I don't think he does. He is simply more durable than Beatrix is shown to be.

You seem to think that because it is not canon that that means anything to me. If there were a minigame where Cloud could juggle stars around, I would argue Cloud could juggle stars. Sure he doesn't do it in the canon but the game presents it as something Cloud could do if he so wished. Again though, you seem to think gameplay feats, scripted ones mind you, can't be used as feats. Even though that is how Stock Break *works.*

Slightly weaker or very weaker? Because that team that fought Kuja would probably be much stronger than when they fought Beatrix.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
We are. But, I can use the rest of the canon to support consistency.

He put it away. And of course Cloud was flung up, he got hit by an explosion.

Unless you ignore the fact that Sephiroth is stronger that any machine. Cloud can also take bullets with minimal damage being done. Aerith does run from those guys but she doesn't *have* to. And please don't try to make it sound like gameplay, scripted mind you, can't be used for feats.

Take a gundam with a machine gun vs 100 armored knights with swords. The gundam will shoot through armor easily whereas the knights(who have no strength feats to their name) will be unable to actually damage the gundam made of metal.

Was the building 50 meters up?

1. Even so, that does not mean Cloud strictly dodged bullets in the Rufus fight, as Tac is pointing it out.

2. Really? Why he would do that? The floor was hit by the explosion. Cloud was not.

3. Sephiroth can destroy a robot? Remind me again how's that relevant to the fact that Aerith, who is a human, can be wounded/killed by swords. If Cloud is hurt by bullets, logically Aerith much more. And yeah, she has to, on the contrary she gets defeated and captured. She asked Cloud to be her bodyguard for a reason. I'm not making it sound the gameplay sequence can't be used for feats, I'm saying it can't be used at all.

4. A robot will shoot through 100 armored soldiers and not through Cloud and his friends, who are in fact unarmored, huh? Why they will be unable to damage a machine? You're barely providing reasons for your claims.

5. Dunno. She can also jump very high, demonstrating high levels of agility. But Beatrix still beat her.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
1. Even so, that does not mean Cloud strictly dodged bullets in the Rufus fight, as Tac is pointing it out.

2. Really? Why he would do that? The floor was hit by the explosion. Cloud was not.

3. Sephiroth can destroy a robot? Remind me again how's that relevant to the fact that Aerith, who is a human, can be wounded/killed by swords. If Cloud is hurt by bullets, logically Aerith much more. And yeah, she has to, on the contrary she gets defeated and captured. She asked Cloud to be her bodyguard for a reason. I'm not making it sound the gameplay sequence can't be used for feats, I'm saying it can't be used at all.

4. A robot will shoot through 100 armored soldiers and not through Cloud and his friends, who are in fact unarmored, huh? Why they will be unable to damage a machine? You're barely providing reasons for your claims.

5. Dunno. She can also jump very high, demonstrating high levels of agility. But Beatrix still beat her.

1. Of course. Given that Rufus is a good shot, the distance is short, and the area they fight in is tiny, I'd argue Cloud would probably have blocked the shots in that particular fight.

2. An explosion goes in more than just one set direction. If it was just blowing up the floor, Cloud wouldn't have been knocked into the air.

3. Sephiroth's stabbings>a robot. Wut? Aerith doesn't get caught, whether you choose to fight or not. Aerith get's captured on her own terms. She probably asked Cloud to be her bodyguard because for one, he is stronger than her, and for two, she probably wanted to talk to him. So gameplay can't be used at all huh? Then I guess Beatrix never used Stock break on Zidane and the gang. They just fell over.

4. ....? The fact that Cloud and his friends are able to fight machines that shoot guns and beat them is a feat in their favor. The FF IX verse, which is shown to be technologically inferior to the FF VII universe, has soldiers in armor with swords and shields. Bullets render such armor ineffective in our world, nothing suggests they wouldn't in FF IX. A good sword slash was all it took to beat armor in FF IX.

5. So she beat Zidane, who is agile, and Freya, who is agile. That means Beatrix is probably agile. That doesn't make her strong.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well there really was no cover to get behind and ze doggy would have casted a barrier around dear Rufus. Not to mention, Cloud doesn't seem to move very much in these fights. And that is not what I'm claiming.

What do you mean Cloud doesn't move much in these fights? You don't think the fights actually play out like they do in the game, where one person stands still and let's the other person hit them, right?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Those are merely the most likely outcomes based on the consistency with the FF VII universe.

That's the problem. You are assigning feats to Cloud because you think he probably did that feat. Which is unacceptable. You cannot give characters feats because you think it's likely they have them. We can only go off of what the developers actually give us.

If we go down the "probability" line of reasoning, then I can assign feats to Beatrix as well. Let's face it, Vivi probably would have had lightning by that point in the game. It's one of the most basic spells, and Vivi is quite an accomplished mage. And he probably would have used it in the fight. Which means Beatrix probably would have dodged it. So Beatrix is a lightning timer.

The only feats that are acceptable to give to characters are the feats that the developers say they have. NOT feats we assign to them. Which is the problem I run into a lot when debating on KMC. Everyone is assigning their own feats to characters that the developers didn't give them.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I don't think he does. He is simply more durable than Beatrix is shown to be.

Do you think he durable enough that a sword would bounce off his skin?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You seem to think that because it is not canon that that means anything to me. If there were a minigame where Cloud could juggle stars around, I would argue Cloud could juggle stars. Sure he doesn't do it in the canon but the game presents it as something Cloud could do if he so wished. Again though, you seem to think gameplay feats, scripted ones mind you, can't be used as feats. Even though that is how Stock Break *works.*

Notice I never claimed Shock Break would work the way it did in the game. If that were the case, all Beatrix would need to do is use that skill and Cloud would be finished, as it basically instant kills whatever it hits.

All I claimed is that Beatrix defeated Zidane and his party. That's it. And that much IS canon.

If you want to ignore what is canon and what isn't then Dissidia is fair game.

You also can't ignore game mechanics. The battle system is not an accurate representation of how fights work in that world. Cloud can't actually be sliced a ton of times by Sephiroth and still be standing. The time limit made for the underwater fight is game mechanics. As is the whole fight all together. The only thing you would be able to take from that fight is that the characters defeated the weapon. Which, again, isn't canon. They never technically do that in FF7. The player can choose to or not if they want to.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Slightly weaker or very weaker? Because that team that fought Kuja would probably be much stronger than when they fought Beatrix.

There is no power levels in FF9. I'm sure the team was stronger at the end of the game than they were at the particular fight but there isn't any indication of how much stronger. And again, there isn't even any indication that they ever got stronger than Beatrix at all. She never looses a fight.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What do you mean Cloud doesn't move much in these fights? You don't think the fights actually play out like they do in the game, where one person stands still and let's the other person hit them, right?

Well since you want to work with what is given to us, yes. Silly but that seems to be what you mean. However in the Rufus fight, Cloud has very little room to move in anyway. So he'd more than likely block the bullets.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's the problem. You are assigning feats to Cloud because you think he probably did that feat. Which is unacceptable. You cannot give characters feats because you think it's likely they have them. We can only go off of what the developers actually give us.

The only feats that are acceptable to give to characters are the feats that the developers say they have. NOT feats we assign to them. Which is the problem I run into a lot when debating on KMC. Everyone is assigning their own feats to characters that the developers didn't give them.

Incorrect. I'm giving characters feats based on probability and consistency. FF VII characters are shown to be able to dodge bullets in their canon so why assuming they can do so is such a bad thing is something I don't understand.

Because, get ready for this: Designers of games probably care very little what their characters can do. They do not create specific feats. They have their characters do an action(Ex. Cloud blocks a bullet.) and the posters on forums(Ex. TheAuraAngel.) determine whether these can be used to assert a feat(Ex. Cloud can react to bullets.) The problem with characters like Beatrix is we don't know what she does because she has shown very little. There are few actions to judge her on.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Do you think he durable enough that a sword would bounce off his skin?

It would do less harm to him than it would Beatrix. Who Cloud could kill without his sword mind you.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Notice I never claimed Shock Break would work the way it did in the game. If that were the case, all Beatrix would need to do is use that skill and Cloud would be finished, as it basically instant kills whatever it hits.

Shock Break has killed what exactly?

Originally posted by TacDavey
You also can't ignore game mechanics. The battle system is not an accurate representation of how fights work in that world. Cloud can't actually be sliced a ton of times by Sephiroth and still be standing. The time limit made for the underwater fight is game mechanics. As is the whole fight all together. The only thing you would be able to take from that fight is that the characters defeated the weapon. Which, again, isn't canon. They never technically do that in FF7. The player can choose to or not if they want to.

So you want me not to ignore mechanics unless it can be used as feats, in which case I should ignore it completely...Why can't he? Cloud slashed the **** out of Sephiroth in Advent Children. It didn't seem to actually do anything to his body. You can say the time limit is mechanics but someone has told me not to ignore them so I shan't write them off as worthless. If a player can choose to do something in the game, it is something the developer intended for them to be able to do.

Originally posted by TacDavey
There is no power levels in FF9. I'm sure the team was stronger at the end of the game than they were at the particular fight but there isn't any indication of how much stronger. And again, there isn't even any indication that they ever got stronger than Beatrix at all. She never looses a fight.

Well there is. They are called evels. Clearly levels are supposed to be a representation of how much experience the party has accumulated during their adventures. The more experienced they are, the stronger they are.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. Of course. Given that Rufus is a good shot, the distance is short, and the area they fight in is tiny, I'd argue Cloud would probably have blocked the shots in that particular fight.

2. An explosion goes in more than just one set direction. If it was just blowing up the floor, Cloud wouldn't have been knocked into the air.

3. Sephiroth's stabbings>a robot. Wut? Aerith doesn't get caught, whether you choose to fight or not. Aerith get's captured on her own terms. She probably asked Cloud to be her bodyguard because for one, he is stronger than her, and for two, she probably wanted to talk to him. So gameplay can't be used at all huh? Then I guess Beatrix never used Stock break on Zidane and the gang. They just fell over.

4. ....? The fact that Cloud and his friends are able to fight machines that shoot guns and beat them is a feat in their favor. The FF IX verse, which is shown to be technologically inferior to the FF VII universe, has soldiers in armor with swords and shields. Bullets render such armor ineffective in our world, nothing suggests they wouldn't in FF IX. A good sword slash was all it took to beat armor in FF IX.

5. So she beat Zidane, who is agile, and Freya, who is agile. That means Beatrix is probably agile. That doesn't make her strong.

1. The whole area is not tiny, I see plenty of space in that fight to move freely.

2. The floor was destroyed because the robot was standing on it. Touching it. Cloud, on the other hand, was not in direct contact with the machine but near of it. The shockwave, collateral damage is what sent Cloud into the air. I'm not saying nothing hit him, all I'm saying is he didn't withstood anything.

3. Sephiroth stabs a robot? What is your point? Aerith doesn't get caught because Cloud is with her and so he helps her to escape. But later in the story she is captured, which further proves what I'm saying. Exactly, Cloud is a lot stronger, thus she needed him. No, you can't use the boss fight because it is clearly contradicting events within the plot and you know it. However, we can use the Beatrix battle because it doesn't. In fact, it moves the story-line forward.

4. I'm not asking what world is more technologically advanced. I'm asking why a robot would 'easily' shoot through 100 armored soldiers and not through Cloud and his team, who are unarmored? The soldiers will be always more protected than Cloud's team no matter how you look at it, and they outnumber them in a great margin too. Besides, I still don't get why Cloud's fights are more meritory than Beatrix's when most of the time he is aided by 7 warriors and Beatrix by none.

5. I'd say very agile. Now, Cloud hasn't shown to be as agile as Zidane or Freya. Neither exceptionally strong for that matter, as he couldn't lift a debris which had fallen on Cid.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
1. The whole area is not tiny, I see plenty of space in that fight to move freely.

2. The floor was destroyed because the robot was standing on it. Touching it. Cloud, on the other hand, was not in direct contact with the machine but near of it. The shockwave, collateral damage is what sent Cloud into the air. I'm not saying nothing hit him, all I'm saying is he didn't withstood anything.

3. Sephiroth stabs a robot? What is your point? Aerith doesn't get caught because Cloud is with her and so he helps her to escape. But later in the story she is captured, which further proves what I'm saying. Exactly, Cloud is a lot stronger, thus she needed him. No, you can't use the boss fight because it is clearly contradicting events within the plot and you know it. However, we can use the Beatrix battle because it doesn't. In fact, it moves the story-line forward.

4. I'm not asking what world is more technologically advanced. I'm asking why a robot would 'easily' shoot through 100 armored soldiers and not through Cloud and his team, who are unarmored? The soldiers will be always more protected than Cloud's team no matter how you look at it, and they outnumber them in a great margin too. Besides, I still don't get why Cloud's fights are more meritory than Beatrix's when most of the time he is aided by 7 warriors and Beatrix by none.

5. I'd say very agile. Now, Cloud hasn't shown to be as agile as Zidane or Freya. Neither exceptionally strong for that matter, as he couldn't lift a debris which had fallen on Cid.

1. Not really iirc. I'll look when I have more time.

2. Considering it destroyed the entire floor where it was standing, to a certain distance, the explosion had a decent range. Cloud was inside that range. Whether we go by his actions, which show he was hit by it, or his placement at the time of the explosion(the part of the floor he was on was destroyed while he was merely knocked up) he tanked it.

3. Sephiroth is stronger than a robot. Which is why his attacks hurt more and are able to kill someone super human like Aerith. Aerith doesn't need Cloud's help to escape. Why is the boss battle contradictory to the plot? It happens in the game, during the main story. It moves the plot along that they defeated that big machine and escaped Midgar. It hit them, they tanked it. That is scripted.

4. Because guns are better weapons than swords, which is what the soldiers Beatrix fought would use. And swords are not better than machine armor because humans with no feats cannot cut through them.

5. Need to see that again as well. But he cuts through metal fairly nicely. So he shouldn't have to worry about outstrengthening her.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well since you want to work with what is given to us, yes. Silly but that seems to be what you mean. However in the Rufus fight, Cloud has very little room to move in anyway. So he'd more than likely block the bullets.

You're trying to dictate how the fight when down. You can't do that because you don't know because the developers never specified how the fight went down.

Here's what we know about the Rufus fight. And this is ALL the developers made certain.

1. Cloud fought Rufus
2. Rufus had a gun
3. Cloud ended up winning

Any and everything else is pure speculation.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Incorrect. I'm giving characters feats based on probability

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's the problem. You are assigning feats to Cloud because you think he probably did that feat.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
...and consistency. FF VII characters are shown to be able to dodge bullets in their canon so why assuming they can do so is such a bad thing is something I don't understand.

FF7 characters can dodge bullets in Advent Children and the modern remakes. We are talking about whether or not they can do it originally in FF7, or did you forget? The fact that they can dodge bullets in later installments is irrelevant to whether or not they can do it in FF7.

You made the claim that the skill of dodging bullets is something they can do in FF7, and you try to defend it by bringing in the fact that they do it outside of FF7?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Because, get ready for this: Designers of games probably care very little what their characters can do.

The rest of this point lost all credibility after this part. You're saying the developers of the characters, the people who make them and the storyline, don't actually care what their characters can do? So who does? KMC posters? You should call up the developers of FF7, I'm sure they would be very interested to have you tell them what their characters can do.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It would do less harm to him than it would Beatrix. Who Cloud could kill without his sword mind you.

It's debatable whether he can kill her with a sword. I doubt he can do it unarmed.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Shock Break has killed what exactly?

I said basically kills. In the game it lowers all the victims health down to 1. If we are allowing gameplay mechanics in this debate, Cloud would be finished from just that attack.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So you want me not to ignore mechanics unless it can be used as feats, in which case I should ignore it completely...Why can't he? Cloud slashed the **** out of Sephiroth in Advent Children. It didn't seem to actually do anything to his body. You can say the time limit is mechanics but someone has told me not to ignore them so I shan't write them off as worthless. If a player can choose to do something in the game, it is something the developer intended for them to be able to do.

What are you talking about? I want you to ignore game mechanics all together. They can't be used in a debate. Period.

The best that will get you is that it isn't impossible for Cloud and company to kill the weapon. But they never actually did it. So you cannot call them stronger than it.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well there is. They are called evels. Clearly levels are supposed to be a representation of how much experience the party has accumulated during their adventures. The more experienced they are, the stronger they are.

More gameplay mechanics. Zidane doesn't actually have levels. Furthermore, there is no set level that Zidane is at that part in the game or ANY part of the game for that matter.

Originally posted by TacDavey
You're trying to dictate how the fight when down. You can't do that because you don't know because the developers never specified how the fight went down.

Here's what we know about the Rufus fight. And this is ALL the developers made certain.

1. Cloud fought Rufus
2. Rufus had a gun
3. Cloud ended up winning

Any and everything else is pure speculation.

Kay.

1. Beatrix fought Zidane and pals.
2. They had a bunch of random shit.
4. Beatrix won.

From this, I cannot assume Beatrix is physically more agile than Freya, stronger than Steiner, a better mage than Vivi, or faster than Zidane. I can't infer anything from this amount of information unless I assume something. So Beatrix has no feats, despite probably being all of these things.

Ironically enough, if we were counting gameplay mechanics, Beatrix has to take hits from the party before using Shock Break(or maybe there was a time limit, can't remember) so you'd be able to make a case for her being very durable based on that. But, we can't because you don't want to. Remind me again, what are her feats?

Originally posted by TacDavey
FF7 characters can dodge bullets in Advent Children and the modern remakes. We are talking about whether or not they can do it originally in FF7, or did you forget? The fact that they can dodge bullets in later installments is irrelevant to whether or not they can do it in [B]FF7.

You made the claim that the skill of dodging bullets is something they can do in FF7, and you try to defend it by bringing in the fact that they do it outside of FF7?[/B]

Consistent:"Compatible or in agreement with something."

If bullets are dodgeable in Before Crisis, Last Order, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus, and Advent Children, them not being able to dodge bullets would be inconsistent. So yes, I can use material outside of FF VII to make an argument for consistency so long as the material is canon.

Probable:"Likely to be the case or to happen."

If bullets are shown to be consistently dodged within the canon, and they are, and if indeed the game doesn't give us an accurate representation of how the fight plays out, it is highly probable that they would dodge bullets, because they probably don't feel like getting hit by them.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The rest of this point lost all credibility after this part. You're saying the developers of the characters, the people who make them and the storyline, don't actually care what their characters can do? So who does? KMC posters? You should call up the developers of FF7, I'm sure they would be very interested to have [B]you tell them what their characters can do.[/B]

Are you under the impression that game designers get together and argue over their video game characters, all the while calculating shit like what Scream does? Because I don't. I don't believe they care what feats a character has at all. They're focused on entertaining(or getting money, whichever) the consumer and telling a story. If said story requires Cloud to survive explosions, that is not really very important to them. However, once the game becomes ours, we can interpret feats however we like, so long as we have something to back them up.

Originally posted by TacDavey
It's debatable whether he can kill her with a sword. I doubt he can do it unarmed. I said basically kills. In the game it lowers all the victims health down to 1. If we are allowing gameplay mechanics in this debate, Cloud would be finished from just that attack.

Or you'd like to think it is. She has no feats that we can use to infer anything from. Cloud does. And no, Cloud wouldn't. Limit Break says hi. And since his attacks while at maxed power are all above her health bar, she would more than likely be killed by it.

Unless you want to argue that since the game never shows Beatrix losing, she can never be defeated in combat.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What are you talking about? I want you to ignore game mechanics all together. They can't be used in a debate. Period.

The best that will get you is that it isn't impossible for Cloud and company to kill the weapon. But they never actually did it. So you cannot call them stronger than it.

More gameplay mechanics. Zidane doesn't actually have levels. Furthermore, there is no set level that Zidane is at that part in the game or ANY part of the game for that matter.

Oh but friend, they can.

"If a character can do something in a game, they can do it in the vs. thread, unless the original post specifically says no."

Cloud and Co never canonly fight a WEAPON, but they can do it in the game. They never canonly fight under water for 20 minutes, but they can do it. It's certainly a feat for them.

Are you trying to argue that Zidane and gang never gained experience from the time they battled Beatrix to their final bout with Kuja? Levels are merely a representation of that.

It is made rather clear by Garland that Zidane was in a state of progression, so it is plain obvious he become stronger during the game.

And I like to take this oppurtunity to bow out. Arguing with two people in a topic I care nothing about takes more commitment than someone like I is willing to give. Can't believe I argued this long. Adios.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Considering it destroyed the entire floor where it was standing, to a certain distance, the explosion had a decent range. Cloud was inside that range. Whether we go by his actions, which show he was hit by it, or his placement at the time of the explosion(the part of the floor he was on was destroyed while he was merely knocked up) he tanked it.

Yes, he got caught inside the range but he never took the whole explosion, man. The floor did! Besides, if you look carefully, Cloud was standing on a small portion of the floor which wasn't fully destroyed. How can you say he tanked the explosion? Cloud couldn't withstand the collateral damage of it, as he was sent into the air and had no sufficient strength to even support his own weight after grabbing part of the remaining structure. No to mention he had his sword with him, which logically was used for protection, not thrown away as you blatantly suggested.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Sephiroth is stronger than a robot. Which is why his attacks hurt more and are able to kill someone super human like Aerith.

My bad, I forgot Aerith's skin is harder than metal. 👆

So that means she is stronger than Cloud, who can be easily pierced by bullets.

Wait...

...wasn't Sephiroth himself wounded by a Shin-Ra Infantryman {c-l-O-U-d} wearing a Buster Sword and with much less force than a giant robot's thrust? I suppose Aerith is also more durable than Sephiroth then.

Spoiler:
Aerith is not super-human

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Aerith doesn't need Cloud's help to escape.

Nice refutation.

Aerith to Cloud:

''Have you ever been a bodyguard?''

''Get me out of here.'' ''Take me home''

''What should we do?''

''Make sure they don't get through!''

''Cloud, help!''

Why she would say such things if she doesn't really need Cloud, can endure the force of giant metallic spikes with her body, engage Shin-Ra soldiers in battle by herself without problems and escape?

Why later she is grasping for breath just because she ran a bit? She is super-human, isn't she? She can fight trained soldiers and win. Why she struggles every time she wants to jump a small distance to the ground? She can withstand the force of a giant robot and its metallic spikes without breaking a sweat...no?

Elmyra (Aerith's 'mother'😉 to Aerith:

''Bodyguard...? You mean you were followed again!?''

''Are you all right!? You're not hurt, are you!?''

Aerith:

''I'm all right. I had Cloud with me.''

According to you, Aerith never needed Cloud's help. Therefore in reality she must be all alright due the fact she is astonishingly strong, not because she had Cloud with her. Correct? So those dialogues are obviously mistranslated, right? It's clearly an inconsistency. But I'm gonna ask this anyway:

Tell me, which of the following generates contradictions in the story-line?

a) Aerith tanking giant robots in gameplay is canon.

or

b) Aerith tanking giant robots in gameplay isn't canon.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Why is the boss battle contradictory to the plot?

It's not the boss battle, but the feat you are trying to draw from it.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It happens in the game, during the main story. It moves the plot along that they defeated that big machine and escaped Midgar. It hit them, they tanked it. That is scripted.

The boss hitting the characters only inflicts effects in gameplay because the players start fighting with less HP. That's just for the sake of making the fight a little difficult. Nothing more. It's purely for gameplay purposes. The plot is 100% unaffected and clean, unless you insert that feat of yours which does nothing more than mess with the plot.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Because guns are better weapons than swords, which is what the soldiers Beatrix fought would use. And swords are not better than machine armor because humans with no feats cannot cut through them.

Cloud uses guns? No. Cloud has a laser sword? No. Cloud's sword is made of metal? Yes. The soldiers' swords are made of metal? Yes. I find no difference.

Cloud and his friends are armored? No. The soldiers are? Yes. There is a difference.

So again, why a robot would easily shoot through 100 armored warriors and not through 7 unarmored ones? Why Cloud's fights are more meritory? He is still most of the time aided by 7 people (two of them wielding fire arms) and Materia. He has tons of advantage. But in this fight he is alone and fighting against someone who vanquished 100 armored soldiers single handedly. And apparently Beatrix did it prior to the main story, where I believe she was not as strong as in the first disc of the game.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Need to see that again as well. But he cuts through metal fairly nicely. So he shouldn't have to worry about outstrengthening her.

Cloud has never sliced through metal.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Kay.

1. Beatrix fought Zidane and pals.
2. They had a bunch of random shit.
4. Beatrix won.

From this, I cannot assume Beatrix is physically more agile than Freya, stronger than Steiner, a better mage than Vivi, or faster than Zidane. I can't infer anything from this amount of information unless I assume something. So Beatrix has no feats, despite probably being all of these things.

Ironically enough, if we were counting gameplay mechanics, Beatrix has to take hits from the party before using Shock Break(or maybe there was a time limit, can't remember) so you'd be able to make a case for her being very durable based on that. But, we can't because you don't want to. Remind me again, what are her feats?

That's just ridiculous. Do you know why I can claim Beatrix is incredibly nimble? Because she defeated two opponents who have shown OUTSIDE of gameplay stances to be very nimble.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And I like to take this oppurtunity to bow out. Arguing with two people in a topic I care nothing about takes more commitment than someone like I is willing to give. Can't believe I argued this long. Adios.

Very well, though I will still respond to your points.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Kay.

1. Beatrix fought Zidane and pals.
2. They had a bunch of random shit.
4. Beatrix won.

From this, I cannot assume Beatrix is physically more agile than Freya, stronger than Steiner, a better mage than Vivi, or faster than Zidane. I can't infer anything from this amount of information unless I assume something. So Beatrix has no feats, despite probably being all of these things.

Defeating Zidane and his party WAS the feat. That isn't easily done. And I don't think Cloud would be able to fight and defeat Zidane and his party since it's debatable if Cloud can defeat just Zidane by himself.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Ironically enough, if we were counting gameplay mechanics, Beatrix has to take hits from the party before using Shock Break(or maybe there was a time limit, can't remember) so you'd be able to make a case for her being very durable based on that. But, we can't because you don't want to. Remind me again, what are her feats?

Of course I don't want to. Because making the claim that game mechanics are an accurate representation of a characters abilities is nonsensical. The characters don't actually stand around and wait while another character hits them without moving or dodging. Their health isn't represented by numbers. If they get stabbed through the heart, they die, they don't loose 900 health points. These things where placed into the game to make it a game. Not because the developers wanted to create a world where everyone was so polite they would allow their enemies to attack when it was there turn and kindly allowed them to run up to them and cut them with a weapon.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Consistent:"Compatible or in agreement with something."

If bullets are dodgeable in Before Crisis, Last Order, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus, and Advent Children, them not being able to dodge bullets would be inconsistent. So yes, I can use material outside of FF VII to make an argument for consistency so long as the material is canon.

Probable:"Likely to be the case or to happen."

If bullets are shown to be consistently dodged within the canon, and they are, and if indeed the game doesn't give us an accurate representation of how the fight plays out, it is [b]highly probable that they would dodge bullets, because they probably don't feel like getting hit by them. [/B]

The problem you have here is that I'm claiming there was a style change going on between FF7 and the others. In that style change they gained the ability to dodge and block bullets when they could not do that before. You are claiming otherwise. You are claiming that they always COULD do that. So, in order to make your argument work, you have to show an instance in FF7 where that happened. Instead, you bring in the fact that they could do it in Advent Children, and claim that it is consistent. Which is what I was denying the whole time. You have done nothing to refute my assertion that the style change caused the characters from Advent Children to be able to do that. You simply claim, "they can do it in Advent Children, so they can do it in FF7."

Let me be clear. If you want to claim FF7 characters can bullet time. You need to show FF7 characters bullet timing. A CANON example I might add. I already KNOW they can bullet time in Advent Children. I'm saying they couldn't do it in FF7.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Are you under the impression that game designers get together and argue over their video game characters, all the while calculating shit like what Scream does? Because I don't. I don't believe they care what feats a character has at all. They're focused on entertaining(or getting money, whichever) the consumer and telling a story. If said story requires Cloud to survive explosions, that is not really very important to them. However, once the game becomes ours, we can interpret feats however we like, so long as we have something to back them up.

Do I think they work out exact statistic as to what a characters durability is and exactly what his strength level is? No. I DO think they have a pretty good idea of what a character can do and what they can't. Since they, you know, kinda made them.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Or you'd like to think it is. She has no feats that we can use to infer anything from. Cloud does. And no, Cloud wouldn't. Limit Break says hi. And since his attacks while at maxed power are all above her health bar, she would more than likely be killed by it.

Unless you want to argue that since the game never shows Beatrix losing, she can never be defeated in combat.

She actually DOES have feats. I've already provided them numerous times in fact. And Cloud's limit break being activated by low health is... get ready... game mechanics. Cloud doesn't actually have a health bar, you know. If you want to claim Cloud's limit breaks activate by being under stress or being wounded, that's fine. Though, all of Zidane's party couldn't even move after shock break, so I don't think any of them could really stand up, much less perform a limit break.

Which, again, Shock Break is a game mechanic, so I'm not actually using it as evidence supporting Beatrix.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Oh but friend, they can.

"If a character can do something in a game, they can do it in the vs. thread, unless the original post specifically says no."

Cloud and Co never canonly fight a WEAPON, but they can do it in the game. They never canonly fight under water for 20 minutes, but they can do it. It's certainly a feat for them.

No, friend, they can't. The thing about game mechanics is that they were never meant to accurately represent an actual event in the game. They are put into the game to make the game a game. RPG characters don't actually wait for other people to attack. People's health is not actually determined by numbers. If someone get's cut across the stomach, they don't actually just flinch a little and go back to standing, they loose their intestines. Adding a 20 minute time limit is put into the game so the fight would be reasonable, because 1 to 2 minutes is not enough time to fight the weapon. There is little to nothing that can be taken from game mechanic fight scenes because, again, they aren't actually accurate representations of what is happening!

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Are you trying to argue that Zidane and gang never gained experience from the time they battled Beatrix to their final bout with Kuja? Levels are merely a representation of that.

But the levels are not set! They don't actually represent the canon strength of the characters in the game! Or wait, actually, let's go ahead and say they do. Then let's say I had Zidane at his highest level when I fought Beatrix. That mean's Beatrix defeated the strongest form of the party that defeated the Ultimate form of Kuja and Necron. So Beatrix is, in fact, the strongest character in the entire FF9 universe. I'd say that beats Cloud pretty easily.

Originally posted by GreiverSquall
Tell me, which of the following generates contradictions in the story-line?

a) Aerith tanking giant robots in gameplay is canon.

or

b) Aerith tanking giant robots in gameplay isn't canon.

This.

If a gameplay segment requires you to re-think parts of the actual story, or even make an argument to change part of the actual story, chances are, it isn't canon and isn't meant to be.