Beatrix (FF9) vs. Cloud (FF7)

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You think so...? Cuz real-time RPGs in general are like that and Kingdom Hearts came before Advent Children. I don't think they are basing their work on Advent Children, just Final Fantasy Versus XIII because is stated they're doing it.

I didn't say Kingdom Hearts was based off of Advent Children, but regardless it's fights are the same style. Just another example of the switch in battle styles.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yes, in some things that doesn't fit.

In this thing it doesn't fit.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I didn't say Kingdom Hearts was based off of Advent Children, but regardless it's fights are the same style. Just another example of the switch in battle styles.

Nah.
There are others Real-Time RPG games made by Square and looks exactly the same, look at Brave Fencer Musashi. Real-Time RPG games are like that, they are very different from Turn-Based RPGs, cuz you can have total control over the characters and freely move around the places. That has nothing to do with any switches.

Originally posted by TacDavey
In this thing it doesn't fit.

Perhaps.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Nah.
There are others Real-Time RPG games made by Square and looks exactly the same, look at Brave Fencer Musashi. Real-Time RPG games are like that, they are very different from Turn-Based RPGs, cuz you can have total control over the characters and freely move around the places. That has nothing to do with any switches.

What do you mean? I know a Real Time RPG doesn't HAVE to be Advent Children like. But many that are coming out are. It's a new style they are going with. Dissidia, Advent Children, Kingdom Hearts... They all share that style of fighting.

Originally posted by TacDavey
They are Advent Children fights because they were made to look and feel like Advent Children fights. It's unmistakable. Not one of the characters from Dissidia could do what they do in their original games. And Cloud couldn't do what he did in Advent Children originally. They decided to screw what was realistic and go solely on what looks cool. Again, they said so themselves. That's just the style they used. Zidane comes along on the ride just like everyone else. We can see this new battle style being applied to more than just FF7.

"Most people in the world can't beat Mike Tyson, thus this guy probably can't"

Is a MUCH different argument than

"This guy hasn't shown that he can beat Mike Tyson, thus he can't."

You were applying the second argument when you said the FF9 party hasn't shown themselves to be stronger than Cloud. The second one is a fallacy. Thus, your argument was fallacious.

Now you changed it to: The FF9 party hasn't shown they can beat Cloud, thus they probably can't? Which is still flawed reasoning. You need reasons other than "They haven't shown it" to be able to conclude something like that. Tell me WHY the FF9 party seems inferior to Cloud, and I don't want your evidence to be: "They've never shown themselves special."

Again, you missed the point. Defeating an army of Alexandrian soldiers single handedly means the same thing in both worlds.

I said SMALL army. 100 soldiers isn't a scouting party.

That makes no sense. Where did you read that? And anyway, they still defeated Necron.

2. I noticed that you never actually gave me your reasoning for why you think Cloud would beat Beatrix, despite me asking you.

Committing a single fallacy does not discredit your entire argument, something you seem blissfully unaware of.

Tell me what "other reasons" I should factor in then?

Stop avoiding this question.

3. ... How? Considering... Alexandrian soldiers do not exist in FFVII. 😐 Defeating a small army of SOLDIER from FFVII is far more impressive than the Alexandrians though, this is undeniable.

You did not say "small army" in the post I quoted. 🙂

4. I watched the video of when he did it. It was a suicide attack, noting how he was going to take the party with him. Also, he know for a fact he does not have to direct Ultima at himself, he did with that one. Using Necron now? Oh you're right, it is quite obvious that the FFIX party are universal, how could I have been so blind?

FF bosses are nearly always beaten by PIS faggotry, Neo Exdeath, Cloud of Darkness, God Kefka, and Sephiroth in AC being a few examples.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. So style over substance then? Because aesthetically they look like Advent Children fights, they must be able to do exactly what the Advent Children characters can do? Cloud did not do what he did in AC in his original game because... Oh yeah, because of the limitations of the game's tech. You might have an argument, albeit an incredibly idiotic one, if it were only in AC that they performed such feats... Except in Crisis Core we see many of the same feats and in Dirge of Cerberus we see even better feats. Also, we saw similar feats from Zack in Last Order. The feats of AC are very much a canon part of the series... Oh, and in case you still have not figured it out, I was never talking about t3h soopa kewl flipz and shitz present in AC, but feats like cutting sections of building in half or easily deflecting bullets? Those still stand. Facts are, the speed and strength Cloud displayed in AC was never disputed in anything FFVII related after that.

2. I noticed that you never actually gave me your reasoning for why you think Cloud would beat Beatrix, despite me asking you.

Committing a single fallacy does not discredit your entire argument, something you seem blissfully unaware of.

Tell me what "other reasons" I should factor in then?

Stop avoiding this question.

3. ... How? Considering... Alexandrian soldiers do not exist in FFVII. 😐 Defeating a small army of SOLDIER from FFVII is far more impressive than the Alexandrians though, this is undeniable.

You did not say "small army" in the post I quoted. 🙂

4. I watched the video of when he did it. It was a suicide attack, noting how he was going to take the party with him. Also, he know for a fact he does not have to direct Ultima at himself, he did with that one. Using Necron now? Oh you're right, it is quite obvious that the FFIX party are universal, how could I have been so blind?

FF bosses are nearly always beaten by PIS faggotry, Neo Exdeath, Cloud of Darkness, God Kefka, and Sephiroth in AC being a few examples.

1. Have you not been reading the posts up until this point? Either what you say is true, and past FF games were always meant to have AC like battles, which I find highly unlikely, or this is a new battle style just being presented in the recent games coming out. Either way, it cannot be used to show Cloud's dominance over the other FF characters, as this new battle style is being applied to them as well. Look at Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia. This isn't an FF7 exclusive change.

2. I used to think Cloud could beat Beatrix, now I'm not so sure...

Committing a single fallacy doesn't discredit your argument? Uh... Yes it most certainly does. It doesn't show that your conclusion is incorrect, but it DOES show that the line of reasoning you used to arrive at that conclusion is flawed, and as such cannot be used to defend your conclusion. Come up with a non-fallacious argument or your conclusion holds no weight whatsoever.

3. I understand that. Again, not the point. If Alexandrian soldiers DID exist in FF7, they would be just as strong as they were in FF9. The jump between games does not change a characters strength.

4. Ah yes. PIS. How do we know ANY feats, then? If PIS can just be brought into play for anything? Maybe Zack fighting off those soldiers was just PIS. Maybe neither him, nor Cloud can really do that.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What do you mean? I know a Real Time RPG doesn't HAVE to be Advent Children like. But many that are coming out are. It's a new style they are going with. Dissidia, Advent Children, Kingdom Hearts... They all share that style of fighting.

New style? WHICH style? ELABORATE. What makes you think everything shares the SAME style of fighting? Just because characters can do high jumps? For Square-Enix, Advent Children wasn't any motive to have changed the "style" of their games and future works, you sir is not any authority to decide what you can use or not nor what is valid on their projects. By that logic I couldn't support Zack's capabilities since it's a "new style" of animations and it was made to look "cool", nothing in Crisis Core is "realistic", therefore my argument would be invalid, everything Zack does there is just to look "cool", we can't take them as facts, he can't do all of that cuz that is not "realistic", so I can't use it since it's the brand new "style".

Advent Children is a movie, not a game. Kingdom Hearts came before Advent Children and has nothing to do with it. Dissidia just shares the same new CG animations, textures and style of the characters' animations, that are also in the level of the remakes of Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy III, all of them shares the new technology, that's all. As how they created the battles in them individually, it can differ completely from each other, so I can't judge without using a bit of logic, you drawn your conclusions too quick, I respectfully disagree. I know you base your whole argument on: "Hey! They couldn't do that in the original game! Therefore they can't now!" But you do NOT know with 100% certainty if they couldn't. We can use a bit of common sense to logically decide if they really couldn't, as you know there are big differences in technology and there big differences between Turn-Based RPGs and Real-Time RPGs. As for the games that are coming out, the only one that was going to be made/feel like Advent Children is Final Fantasy Versus XIII because the creators and developers have stated it in interviews, they want to recreate those fights, and by "recreate", they meant that they want EVERYTHING to be like Advent Children.

What has Beatrix done that puts her on Cloud's level? Without any use of retarded A>B>C logic here, what are her feats?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
New style? WHICH style? ELABORATE. What makes you think everything shares the SAME style of fighting? Just because characters can do high jumps? For Square-Enix, Advent Children wasn't any motive to have changed the "style" of their games and future works, you sir is not any authority to decide what you can use or not nor what is valid on their projects. By that logic I couldn't support Zack's capabilities since it's a "new style" of animations and it was made to look "cool", nothing in Crisis Core is "realistic", therefore my argument would be invalid, everything Zack does there is just to look "cool", we can't take them as facts, he can't do all of that cuz that is not "realistic", so I can't use it since it's the brand new "style".

Advent Children is a movie, not a game. Kingdom Hearts came before Advent Children and has nothing to do with it. Dissidia just shares the same new CG animations, textures and style of the characters' animations, that are also in the level of the remakes of Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy III, all of them shares the new technology, that's all. As how they created the battles in them individually, it can differ completely from each other, so I can't judge without using a bit of logic, you drawn your conclusions too quick, I respectfully disagree. I know you base your whole argument on: "Hey! They couldn't do that in the original game! Therefore they can't now!" But you do NOT know with 100% certainty if they couldn't. We can use a bit of common sense to logically decide if they really couldn't, as you know there are big differences in technology and there big differences between Turn-Based RPGs and Real-Time RPGs. As for the games that are coming out, the only one that was going to be made/feel like Advent Children is Final Fantasy Versus XIII because the creators and developers have stated it in interviews, they want to recreate those fights, and by "recreate", they meant that they want EVERYTHING to be like Advent Children.

By style I mean exactly what they were talking about in that quote you yourself gave me. The over exaggerated, sky scrapper leaping Dragon Ball Z like fighting. That's a type of style, you do realize that, right? It's the same style they use in Advent Children and it's the same style they use in Kingdom Hearts. It's new.

Now, either they COULD do those things originally and they just didn't because the developers didn't show it somehow (regardless of the fact that they had the opportunity), or this is a change in Battle style that is just now being adopted and applied to the various games coming out. Either way, the argument of "Look what Cloud does in Advent Children. The other FF people can't do that!" Does NOT apply, and is not valid.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
What has Beatrix done that puts her on Cloud's level? Without any use of retarded A>B>C logic here, what are her feats?

We've been discussing that. What IS Cloud's level exactly?

Originally posted by TacDavey
We've been discussing that. What IS Cloud's level exactly?

Even if you convince them that Dissidia and what not affects all the cast members, it still doesn't give Beatrix a feat to work with. Even in the original game, Cloud has shown more as far as I'm concerned.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Even if you convince them that Dissidia and what not affects all the cast members, it still doesn't give Beatrix a feat to work with. Even in the original game, Cloud has shown more as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't be so sure. You would first have to argue that Cloud is stronger than Zidane. If you managed to do that, you would then have to argue that Cloud is stronger than Zidane and three other team members. And if you managed to do that, you would only be placing Cloud on the same level as Beatrix.

I'm not convinced Cloud is stronger than Zidane, let alone Zidane and his team.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I wouldn't be so sure. You would first have to argue that Cloud is stronger than Zidane. If you managed to do that, you would then have to argue that Cloud is stronger than Zidane and three other team members. And if you managed to do that, you would only be placing Cloud on the same level as Beatrix.

I'm not convinced Cloud is stronger than Zidane, let alone Zidane and his team.

Which is where feats come in handy. Not beaten FF9 but by the point in the game where Beatrix pwns the party, they've done nothing impressive. Not that they don't do impressive things later on, haven't beaten the game so I'm not sure whether they do or not. Still, yeah if she or the party she has beaten have no feats, she is weaker than Cloud.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Which is where feats come in handy. Not beaten FF9 but by the point in the game where Beatrix pwns the party, they've done nothing impressive. Not that they don't do impressive things later on, haven't beaten the game so I'm not sure whether they do or not. Still, yeah if she or the party she has beaten have no feats, she is weaker than Cloud.

Oh hell. Not the feats nonsense again. Another "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy. Is this a common thing on KMC forums?

If you've been reading the posts up until now, you'd know that the "weaker without feats" argument has already been refuted. It's a fallacy.

As for the FF9 parties strength, they are stronger than Kuja, who takes blasts from Bahamut, one of the strongest summon spirits, and only gets a tiny scratch. Bahamut levels cities by the way.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh hell. Not the feats nonsense again. Another "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy. Is this a common thing on KMC forums?

If you've been reading the posts up until now, you'd know that the "weaker without feats" argument has already been refuted. It's a fallacy.

As for the FF9 parties strength, they are stronger than Kuja, who takes blasts from Bahamut, one of the strongest summon spirits, and only gets a tiny scratch. Bahamut levels cities by the way.

So what you're telling me is there is no evidence for Beatrix being stronger? Cause that's all I'm asking for. A cutscene. Maybe she cuts through a stone wall or something. Anything. At least something that proves she is stronger.

That was after they battle Beatrix if I recall correctly. And again, that is poor A>B>C logic. It's like if I were to say, Charmander could kill Squirtle with ease because he can beat Bulbasaur with ease, who in turn could beat Squirtle with ease.

Also, Cloud fought Bahamut too, so actually he is right at Kuja's level by your logic huh?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So what you're telling me is there is no evidence for Beatrix being stronger? Cause that's all I'm asking for. A cutscene. Maybe she cuts through a stone wall or something. Anything. At least something that proves she is stronger.

That was after they battle Beatrix if I recall correctly. And again, that is poor A>B>C logic. It's like if I were to say, Charmander could kill Squirtle with ease because he can beat Bulbasaur with ease, who in turn could beat Squirtle with ease.

Also, Cloud fought Bahamut too, so actually he is right at Kuja's level by your logic huh?

No, she never cuts through a wall or anything. But that isn't necessarily required to know someone would beat someone else. I gave the example earlier, of a being who could think things into existence, and was basically known to be the absolute most powerful being alive. Yet never ended up having a scene showing these abilities. That does not mean it is more logical to assume Cloud would defeat him simply because we see Cloud slice through building chunks.

That's not quite the same thing. In the pokemon example, each character is about the same strength, yet has something specially designed to defeat the others. The same cannot be said of the FF characters, however. These fights are dealing only with the characters strength.

No, it isn't the same thing. For one thing, the two Bahamuts where not the same, and for another thing, Cloud did not take a blast from Bahamut and shrug it off like it was nothing.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, she never cuts through a wall or anything. But that isn't necessarily required to know someone would beat someone else. I gave the example earlier, of a being who could think things into existence, and was basically known to be the absolute most powerful being alive. Yet never ended up having a scene showing these abilities. That does not mean it is more logical to assume Cloud would defeat him simply because we see Cloud slice through building chunks.

That's not quite the same thing. In the pokemon example, each character is about the same strength, yet has something specially designed to defeat the others. The same cannot be said of the FF characters, however. These fights are dealing only with the characters strength.

No, it isn't the same thing. For one thing, the two Bahamuts where not the same, and for another thing, Cloud did not take a blast from Bahamut and shrug it off like it was nothing.

Good. But Beatrix is not so lucky as to have such a description. An elite solider pretty much can be used to describe either Cloud or Beatrix now couldn't it? In this regard, what else could you do but go by feats? What is the other option I'm missing?

Actually, can be said for Pokemon. And here is why. A Charmander can defeat a Squirtle with ease if it is at a high enough level. When the party fights Beatrix it's early on in the game and Kuja's battle doesn't happen until later. It seems silly that you think Beatrix is stronger than a planet buster to me, which is what it sounds like you're insinuating.

So why should I assume the FF9 Bahamut is stronger? Again, I'd need feats to judge it. And yes he did. Remember the scene where he goes through the mega-flare and kills Bahamut? 😕

Once Beatrix takes off her eyepatch she'll be releasing 100% of her spiritual powr. She'll start cutting buildings in half just by waving her sword at them.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Good. But Beatrix is not so lucky as to have such a description. An elite solider pretty much can be used to describe either Cloud or Beatrix now couldn't it? In this regard, what else could you do but go by feats? What is the other option I'm missing?

Beatrix isn't that obvious, but the point was that feats are not always necessary. So to base your conclusion off of nothing more than a lack of something that isn't necessary is illogical. You need a better reason than that.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Actually, can be said for Pokemon. And here is why. A Charmander can defeat a Squirtle with ease if it is at a high enough level. When the party fights Beatrix it's early on in the game and Kuja's battle doesn't happen until later. It seems silly that you think Beatrix is stronger than a planet buster to me, which is what it sounds like you're insinuating.

No, I'm not saying she is stronger than Trance Kuja. It is unclear how she compares to normal Kuja, however, the repeated defeat of the team along with her reputation as practically the most feared swordsman in the world is evidence to support her being more powerful. The team fights Beatrix multiple times throughout the game. Not just at the beginning. And each time she wins seemingly without breaking a sweat.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So why should I assume the FF9 Bahamut is stronger? Again, I'd need feats to judge it. And yes he did. Remember the scene where he goes through the mega-flare and kills Bahamut? 😕

I'm not saying you should consider the FF9 Bahamut more powerful. But you used a different monster to try and make a comparison between the two, and just because they have the same name, does not make them the same. The two are obviously different.

Cloud wasn't simply taking that blast, he was in the middle of whatever limit break he was doing at the time. Climmhazard I think someone said it was. He was slashing through the blast, not simply taking the hit.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Beatrix isn't that obvious, but the point was that feats are not always necessary. So to base your conclusion off of nothing more than a lack of something that isn't necessary is illogical. You need a better reason than that.

No, I'm not saying she is stronger than Trance Kuja. It is unclear how she compares to normal Kuja, however, the repeated defeat of the team along with her reputation as practically the most feared swordsman in the world is evidence to support her being more powerful. The team fights Beatrix multiple times throughout the game. Not just at the beginning. And each time she wins seemingly without breaking a sweat.

I'm not saying you should consider the FF9 Bahamut more powerful. But you used a different monster to try and make a comparison between the two, and just because they have the same name, does not make them the same. The two are obviously different.

Cloud wasn't simply taking that blast, he was in the middle of whatever limit break he was doing at the time. Climmhazard I think someone said it was. He was slashing through the blast, not simply taking the hit.

So what should I base it off of? Beatrix is hailed as a great warrior. I understand that. But Cloud, because he is the main character of his game and goes through saving the world has a better rep to him than she does. What other means do I have to decide who is stronger between the two besides using feats? There is a difference between saying someone like Cloud vs freaking Arceus. Arceus we don't see do anything in the game but we know his feats from the pokedex. We don't see it but we know 100% he'd so much as want Cloud dead and it would happen. Here, I see no other way to go except using feats

Once at the end of disc 1, twice in disk 2 early on. Unless you fight her in disk 3 or 4, the party should logically be far stronger when facing Kuja. And again, I need feats to gauge the FF9 party's power. I can't just assume anything for the time being.

You still have to account for the heat of the blast and the fact that his sword could even cut through it. And I don't think it was Climmhazard. Doesn't look like it anyway. Not sure what it was.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So what should I base it off of? Beatrix is hailed as a great warrior. I understand that. But Cloud, because he is the main character of his game and goes through saving the world has a better rep to him than she does. What other means do I have to decide who is stronger between the two besides using feats? There is a difference between saying someone like Cloud vs freaking Arceus. Arceus we don't see do anything in the game but we know his feats from the pokedex. We don't see it but we know 100% he'd so much as want Cloud dead and it would happen. Here, I see no other way to go except using feats

I don't know who Arceus is, but a similar form of logic can be applied. Take what we know Beatrix is capable of and what Cloud is capable of. What do we know about both of them?

Beatrix is the strongest swordsman in FF9, as far as we know. She never ends up loosing a fight, so we have no stronger character reference to go off of, thought it is logical to assume Trance Kuja would beat her. She demonstrates not only an amazing skill with the sword, but with magic too, as she breaks the spell placed on Dagger by the two mage clowns, who claimed it was "unbreakable". She took out a squad of 100 soldiers single handed and is the top general, and most trusted warrior, of the female army of Alexandria.

What do we know about Cloud? Cloud is a genetically enhanced super human. His physical abilities are enhanced thanks to Jenova cells, though it isn't clear just how much he is enhanced. He is one of the strongest fighters seen in the FF7 world, though he still takes a backseat to Sephiroth.

So look at that info, and decide who you think would win in a fight. or you could say, I don't know. I'm not necessarily gunning for Beatrix, but I don't find the "stronger because of lack of feats" argument valid at all.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Once at the end of disc 1, twice in disk 2 early on. Unless you fight her in disk 3 or 4, the party should logically be far stronger when facing Kuja. And again, I need feats to gauge the FF9 party's power. I can't just assume anything for the time being.

You might be right. But you still are assuming that the party is stronger, and you are assuming Beatrix's strength stays the same.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You still have to account for the heat of the blast and the fact that his sword could even cut through it. And I don't think it was Climmhazard. Doesn't look like it anyway. Not sure what it was.

But again, Cloud is using an attack to break through Mega Flare, not just sticking out his chest and laughing.

I heard it was Climmhazard because he was running up Bahamuts back with his sword in him kinda like the attack in FF7. Either way, not really relevant.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't know who Arceus is, but a similar form of logic can be applied. Take what we know Beatrix is capable of and what Cloud is capable of. What do we know about both of them?

Beatrix is the strongest swordsman in FF9, as far as we know. She never ends up loosing a fight, so we have no stronger character reference to go off of, thought it is logical to assume Trance Kuja would beat her. She demonstrates not only an amazing skill with the sword, but with magic too, as she breaks the spell placed on Dagger by the two mage clowns, who claimed it was "unbreakable". She took out a squad of 100 soldiers single handed and is the top general, and most trusted warrior, of the female army of Alexandria.

What do we know about Cloud? Cloud is a genetically enhanced super human. His physical abilities are enhanced thanks to Jenova cells, though it isn't clear just how much he is enhanced. He is one of the strongest fighters seen in the FF7 world, though he still takes a backseat to Sephiroth.

So look at that info, and decide who you think would win in a fight. or you could say, I don't know. I'm not necessarily gunning for Beatrix, but I don't find the "stronger because of lack of feats" argument valid at all.

You might be right. But you still are assuming that the party is stronger, and you are assuming Beatrix's strength stays the same.

But again, Cloud is using an attack to break through Mega Flare, not just sticking out his chest and laughing.

I heard it was Climmhazard because he was running up Bahamuts back with his sword in him kinda like the attack in FF7. Either way, not really relevant.

Cloud is more than just someone genetically enhanced. He lead his team around the world, fighting more monsters along the way than Beatrix could imagine. He has fought ancient beings made from the planet itself, advanced Shinra machinery, and not only led his team into battle with Sephiroth at the end of FF7 but also fought all of his reincarnates in Advent Children, topping it all off by battling the main guy himself one on one. Also, during the course of the game, he shows more physical strength than Beatrix ever did.

Of course I assume they get stronger. They have to get stronger. Beatrix doesn't really do much after Kuja attacked Alexandria. Not that I know of anyway. Which is still irrelevant because I don't think much of the FF9 party as they again, don't do much.

And I honestly don't know why exactly the Kuja feat was brought up to begin with. His durability doesn't equal Beatrix so its not like she could take the blast either. And like it or not, Cloud was in that blast. And if he didn't take any damage because of his attack, it just adds a lot to Cloud's strength.