Beatrix (FF9) vs. Cloud (FF7)

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Cloud is more than just someone genetically enhanced. He lead his team around the world, fighting more monsters along the way than Beatrix could imagine. He has fought ancient beings made from the planet itself, advanced Shinra machinery, and not only led his team into battle with Sephiroth at the end of FF7 but also fought all of his reincarnates in Advent Children, topping it all off by battling the main guy himself one on one. Also, during the course of the game, he shows more physical strength than Beatrix ever did.

Wow, you are assuming a lot here with no evidence to support it. Cloud has fought tougher monsters than Beatrix? Back that one up. I want to here your evidence there. Might I remind you that fighting monsters is pretty common place in FF universes?

Cloud never Cannonly defeated the weapons. Those were side monsters. The one he DID fight cannon wise was more than a match for him. You also forget that while Cloud did fight Sephiroth one on one, he was never at any point stronger than Sephiroth. Sephiroth was playing with him.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course I assume they get stronger. They have to get stronger. Beatrix doesn't really do much after Kuja attacked Alexandria. Not that I know of anyway. Which is still irrelevant because I don't think much of the FF9 party as they again, don't do much.

I don't know what you mean by "they don't do much." They defeated Trance Kuja, who turns worlds to dust. That's pretty flipping impressive. All of their accomplishments throughout the coarse of the game are all them doing stuff.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And I honestly don't know why exactly the Kuja feat was brought up to begin with. His durability doesn't equal Beatrix so its not like she could take the blast either. And like it or not, Cloud was in that blast. And if he didn't take any damage because of his attack, it just adds a lot to Cloud's strength.

His durability is a good example of just how powerful he is. He didn't take that hit because he has diamond skin, he took it because he's extremely powerful. So anyone stronger than him, or even on his level, would have to be pretty powerful.

Let me ask you this. Would it be the same to block a sword slash as it would to take a sword slash to the chest? No. Cloud was counter attacking. Kuja was taking the hit. It is NOT the same thing.

Here's another example. Which is more impressive? Goku blocking a energy beam with another energy beam, or taking the hit and coming out completely unfazed?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Wow, you are assuming a lot here with no evidence to support it. Cloud has fought tougher monsters than Beatrix? Back that one up. I want to here your evidence there. Might I remind you that fighting monsters is pretty common place in FF universes?

Cloud never Cannonly defeated the weapons. Those were side monsters. The one he DID fight cannon wise was more than a match for him. You also forget that while Cloud did fight Sephiroth one on one, he was never at any point stronger than Sephiroth. Sephiroth was playing with him.

I don't know what you mean by "they don't do much." They defeated Trance Kuja, who turns worlds to dust. That's pretty flipping impressive. All of their accomplishments throughout the coarse of the game are all them doing stuff.

His durability is a good example of just how powerful he is. He didn't take that hit because he has diamond skin, he took it because he's extremely powerful. So anyone stronger than him, or even on his level, would have to be pretty powerful.

Let me ask you this. Would it be the same to block a sword slash as it would to take a sword slash to the chest? No. Cloud was counter attacking. Kuja was taking the hit. It is NOT the same thing.

Here's another example. Which is more impressive? Goku blocking a energy beam with another energy beam, or taking the hit and coming out completely unfazed?

I've played the game. That's my evidence. He fights monsters all the time in his games. And he fights high tech machinery. He cuts through steel. Doesn't matter. That one WEAPON> anything I've ever heard from Beatrix. The reason I doubt Beatrix has fought any monsters like Cloud has is, a) because we never see her doing so and b) why would she? She is supposed to be general to Alexandria. She doesn't go out fighting monsters whenever she pleases. She has to do her job.

Keeping up with Sephiroth, toying with Cloud though he may have been, trumps anything I've seen or heard from Beatrix. If you want to tell me something she actually does that is impressive, you're welcome to do so.

According to NemeBro, Kuja hits them with Ultima and forces them to fight Necron, who from what I can gather, is death. Big deal? If you can say that they are strong for defeating Kuja and thus Beatrix is strong for defeating them, it opens up a lot of stupid points that could be made. Like the stupid Dark Elf from FF4. You lose to him in the script until someone helps the party from a castle miles away, so he must be stronger than Golbez huh?

Not technically. You can be super weak and still take a hit. There are different factors for a fight. It isn't all just pure power. Besides, obviously Kuja in that scene isn't too impressive seeing as how that ship popped outta nowhere and took control of Bahamut for him. He does nothing except take a hit, which honestly was a very spread hit to begin with. And he still duck away from the blast.

It's more comparable to Goku dropping the spirit bomb on somebody and then that person fighting their way out of it.

Cloud in his one Bahamut scene does more impressive things than Beatrix. And unless you can show me something that SHE, not the party and not Kuja, does, then I'm done with this thread for the most part.

Originally posted by TacDavey
By style I mean exactly what they were talking about in that quote you yourself gave me. The over exaggerated, sky scrapper leaping Dragon Ball Z like fighting. That's a type of style, you do realize that, right? It's the same style they use in Advent Children and it's the same style they use in Kingdom Hearts. It's new.

Lmao? They were talking about the MOVIE, nothing more. That's why I ask from where you drawn the conclusion that they were ALSO making references about all of their games and future works, I didn't see that part. Dragon Ball Z-like fighting? Are you joking? I'd say they look like Matrix fights. What part of Kingdom Hearts came BEFORE Advent Children you do not understand? You think because I brought it up you can use it as defense? What part of Turn-Based RPG games and Real-Time RPGs are completely different you do not understand? That's any type of style, each games have their own style.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Now, either they COULD do those things originally and they just didn't because the developers didn't show it somehow (regardless of the fact that they had the opportunity), or this is a change in Battle style that is just now being adopted and applied to the various games coming out. Either way, the argument of "Look what Cloud does in Advent Children. The other FF people can't do that!" Does NOT apply, and is not valid.

First off, I'm not basing any argument in Cloud's favor nor using Advent Children, got it...? Neither to show his "superiority" over other FF characters. I don't need to do that, I don't need the "feats" reasoning, after all... the "winner" is always the one with more amount of abilities. You don't need to see something on screen to know something. But despite that I agree about this, Cloud did a lot of things in the movie, things you can't take away because they are facts and they are pretty much in the script...

I'm simply saying that new technology has a LOT to do here and it's UNDENIABLE. Other FF characters can probably do what Cloud does in Advent Children, OBVIOUSLY that a lot of them could and even MORE. It's just technology's limitations, the developers couldn't show their characters doing this before, even if you say "yep they could!". Dissidia may not be canon, I don't know... But it shows a lot of feats the characters couldn't show before, there are a lot of FF games and they were even in 2-D animation. And we don't really know how they performs in their battles, so I'd say Dissidia is a good representation of the characters abilities in live motion.

And Cloud being genetically enhanced as you many times claimed in the past, does not puts him some levels above Beatrix? 'Cuz if your only argument for Beatrix is that she defeated some weak soldiers, what is stopping Cloud for not blowing them away with his First Tsurugi and super-strength/speed/durability? 😐 Some Black Mages could, they are pretty much feared in that world, and Cloud would defeat many of those Black Mages.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I've played the game. That's my evidence. He fights monsters all the time in his games. And he fights high tech machinery. He cuts through steel. Doesn't matter. That one WEAPON> anything I've ever heard from Beatrix. The reason I doubt Beatrix has fought any monsters like Cloud has is, a) because we never see her doing so and b) why would she? She is supposed to be general to Alexandria. She doesn't go out fighting monsters whenever she pleases. She has to do her job.

And what IS her job? Protecting Alexandria. She leads battles, she's head of the Army! Also, your point with the WEAPON is useless since Cloud didn't beat it. He didn't even come close to beating it.

Like I said, fighting monsters is common place in FF games. Even the lowest soldier does it. It's really no big deal.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Keeping up with Sephiroth, toying with Cloud though he may have been, trumps anything I've seen or heard from Beatrix. If you want to tell me something she actually does that is impressive, you're welcome to do so.

Keeping up with Sephiroth when he is purposely holding back to give you a chance is not a very impressive feat. Not impressive enough to place one character over the next. Cloud was putting his all into that fight. Sephiroth wasn't even pushing himself at all. By the sound of it, Cloud is no where near Sephiroths abilities.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
According to NemeBro, Kuja hits them with Ultima and forces them to fight Necron, who from what I can gather, is death. Big deal? If you can say that they are strong for defeating Kuja and thus Beatrix is strong for defeating them, it opens up a lot of stupid points that could be made. Like the stupid Dark Elf from FF4. You lose to him in the script until someone helps the party from a castle miles away, so he must be stronger than Golbez huh?

Necron has the power to basically end all life in the universe. I'd say that's a pretty big deal indeed. A rather large deal if you ask me.

I don't know anything about FF4, I haven't played it. But if that elf was defeating them, and had to be dealt with by other means, I'd say it sounds like the elf is stronger. If you notice, I admitted I don't think Beatrix is stronger than Trance Kuja, but she is likely stronger than normal Kuja.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not technically. You can be super weak and still take a hit. There are different factors for a fight. It isn't all just pure power. Besides, obviously Kuja in that scene isn't too impressive seeing as how that ship popped outta nowhere and took control of Bahamut for him. He does nothing except take a hit, which honestly was a very spread hit to begin with. And he still duck away from the blast.

He took a direct blast from one of the most powerful summon spirits in the game. And all he does is shrug and go, "Hmm, Bahamut, you managed to hurt me, a little. You really are powerful." As if it were nothing.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It's more comparable to Goku dropping the spirit bomb on somebody and then that person fighting their way out of it.

With another attack. It's attack against attack. Cloud didn't take ther hit. I'm sorry, it just didn't happen. He blocked/counter attacked with another attack.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Cloud in his one Bahamut scene does more impressive things than Beatrix. And unless you can show me something that SHE, not the party and not Kuja, does, then I'm done with this thread for the most part.

Beatrix doesn't get very much face time in FF9. But again, I've already shown that you don't need to see someone perform to know they are powerful. You can use other evidence, not the least of which is who they have defeated. If A>B and B>C then A>C. If you are still completely hung up on denying all evidence except feats, then yes. It seems you are done with this thread.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Lmao? They were talking about the MOVIE, nothing more. That's why I ask from where you drawn the conclusion that they were ALSO making references about all of their games and future works, I didn't see that part. Dragon Ball Z-like fighting? Are you joking? I'd say they look like Matrix fights. What part of Kingdom Hearts came BEFORE Advent Children you do not understand? You think because I brought it up you can use it as defense? What part of Turn-Based RPG games and Real-Time RPGs are completely different you do not understand? That's any type of style, each games have their own style.

First off, I'm not basing any argument in Cloud's favor nor using Advent Children, got it...? Neither to show his "superiority" over other FF characters. I don't need to do that, I don't need the "feats" reasoning, after all... the "winner" is always the one with more amount of abilities. You don't need to see something on screen to know something. But despite that I agree about this, Cloud did a lot of things in the movie, things you can't take away because they are facts and they are pretty much in the script...

I'm simply saying that new technology has a LOT to do here and it's UNDENIABLE. Other FF characters can probably do what Cloud does in Advent Children, OBVIOUSLY that a lot of them could and even MORE. It's just technology's limitations, the developers couldn't show their characters doing this before, even if you say "yep they could!". Dissidia may not be canon, I don't know... But it shows a lot of feats the characters couldn't show before, there are a lot of FF games and they were even in 2-D animation. And we don't really know how they performs in their battles, so I'd say Dissidia is a good representation of the characters abilities in live motion.

And Cloud being genetically enhanced as you many times claimed in the past, does not puts him some levels above Beatrix? 'Cuz if your only argument for Beatrix is that she defeated some weak soldiers, what is stopping Cloud for not blowing them away with his First Tsurugi and super-strength/speed/durability? 😐 Some Black Mages could, they are pretty much feared in that world, and Cloud would defeat many of those Black Mages.

Good. I'm glad you don't hold to the "if it doesn't come up on screen it cannot be used" nonsensical rubbish.

It seems we are in agreement with Advent Children.

It's more than that she fought some soldiers. Both Cloud and Beatrix are the top (well, Cloud isn't technically, but close) swordsman of their respective worlds. Beatrix is apparently a prodigy with the blade, as well as being quite powerful magic wise. She's the head of one of the, if not THE, strongest army in the world. Like I said, being super human does not mean it's impossible for humans to defeat you.

I'm not sure who would win really. They are both powerful warriors and I don't think it is as easy to tell as many are making it out to be. And I certainly deny the "Cloud wins because of lack of feats" argument.

On an end note. Zidane defeated many Black Mages too, but he still lost completely and totally to Beatrix.

Tac, sorry for my delay, I don't have much time for debates, but I'll try to post more often.

Here's my reply. I think Cloud would win by the way.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Good. I'm glad you don't hold to the "if it doesn't come up on screen it cannot be used" nonsensical rubbish.

It seems we are in agreement with Advent Children.

It's more than that she fought some soldiers. Both Cloud and Beatrix are the top (well, Cloud isn't technically, but close) swordsman of their respective worlds. Beatrix is apparently a prodigy with the blade, as well as being quite powerful magic wise. She's the head of one of the, if not THE, strongest army in the world. Like I said, being super human does not mean it's impossible for humans to defeat you.

I'm not sure who would win really. They are both powerful warriors and I don't think it is as easy to tell as many are making it out to be. And I certainly deny the "Cloud wins because of lack of feats" argument.

On an end note. Zidane defeated many Black Mages too, but he still lost completely and totally to Beatrix.

Cloud would beat those soldiers as well. At this rate, even Steiner would fight and defeat many of those soldiers by himself, if not all of them. Let's take into account that the soldiers from the Final Fantasy Universe aren't the same in every universe and these from IX are rather weak compared to others. What kind of soldiers she fought, actually...? And from where? I don't think Beatrix would be a big deal for Cloud, really. She may be strong magic-wise, but no as strong as Sephiroth was, not even near. Besides, she can't attack with Magic, can she? She leads an army, but what makes you think is the possible strongest army in the world? Wasn't Sephiroth the most powerful and strongest in SOLDIER? That's more than comparable. Those soldiers from IX are garbage compared to SOLDIERS, they are at least, comparable to Shinra infantry, if not weaker. Obviously Cloud isn't as strong as Sephiroth is/was, but he fought pretty much the best of the best from his world, let's recall. Being genetically enhanced makes him faster and stronger than regular humans. I highly believe Cloud > Zack now, however, if Zack could have lived then Zack > Cloud. Beatrix wouldn't endure a fight against Cloud, she was getting kind of... tired or something in Alexandria while fighting monsters alongside Steiner, she wanted to return to the castle. Cloud could use Magic through Materia (if he is allowed). Cloud has fought many more threats through his story than Beatrix, some average soldiers aren't comparable to a WEAPON nor to entities such as Jenova SYNTHESIS whose would blow cities in a blink of an eye.

Zidane did it with his team. Flatley (Freya's boyfriend or whatever he is) defeated some Black Mages by himself and with a single slash from his spear (In Cleyra), so even him was more skilled than Zidane at that point, it seems. Cloud is obviously stronger than that Burmecian by a long shot. Besides, Black Mages seems to be slow as hell. They are fat, short and they don't have signs of agility nor strength, Cloud would rape them badly, and they will like it.

Holy crap I forgot all about this thread.

Will make another post soon.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Tac, sorry for my delay, I don't have much time for debates, but I'll try to post more often.

Here's my reply. I think Cloud would win by the way.

Cloud would beat those soldiers as well. At this rate, even Steiner would fight and defeat many of those soldiers by himself, if not all of them. Let's take into account that the soldiers from the Final Fantasy Universe aren't the same in every universe and these from IX are rather weak compared to others. What kind of soldiers she fought, actually...? And from where? I don't think Beatrix would be a big deal for Cloud, really. She may be strong magic-wise, but no as strong as Sephiroth was, not even near. Besides, she can't attack with Magic, can she? She leads an army, but what makes you think is the possible strongest army in the world? Wasn't Sephiroth the most powerful and strongest in SOLDIER? That's more than comparable. Those soldiers from IX are garbage compared to SOLDIERS, they are at least, comparable to Shinra infantry, if not weaker. Obviously Cloud isn't as strong as Sephiroth is/was, but he fought pretty much the best of the best from his world, let's recall. Being genetically enhanced makes him faster and stronger than regular humans. I highly believe Cloud > Zack now, however, if Zack could have lived then Zack > Cloud. Beatrix wouldn't endure a fight against Cloud, she was getting kind of... tired or something in Alexandria while fighting monsters alongside Steiner, she wanted to return to the castle. Cloud could use Magic through Materia (if he is allowed). Cloud has fought many more threats through his story than Beatrix, some average soldiers aren't comparable to a WEAPON nor to entities such as Jenova SYNTHESIS whose would blow cities in a blink of an eye.

Zidane did it with his team. Flatley (Freya's boyfriend or whatever he is) defeated some Black Mages by himself and with a single slash from his spear (In Cleyra), so even him was more skilled than Zidane at that point, it seems. Cloud is obviously stronger than that Burmecian by a long shot. Besides, Black Mages seems to be slow as hell. They are fat, short and they don't have signs of agility nor strength, Cloud would rape them badly, and they will like it.

You start off by comparing Beatrix to Sephiroth. That's a mistake right off the bat. Sure, Beatrix isn't on Sephiroths level. And guess what, neither is Cloud. Not even close. So this shows absolutely nothing.

And yes, Beatrix can attack with magic. She has holy for starters as well as things like shock etc. Something Cloud doesn't have, might I remind you.

What makes me think it's the strongest army in the world? I said one of them. The only other would be... uh... that other kingdom, the name escapes me, the one they escaped to after leaving Alexandria. Limblum or something? Those two are the most powerful armies in that world. And Linblum is powerful mostly because of it's airship technology.

There was absolutely nothing to suggest she was getting tired fighting monsters in Alexandria. Steigner was the one having trouble in that fight, not Beatrix.

Cloud can't use materia because he does not have any canon use of it.

Just because Cloud fought more in his game does NOT make him stronger. Cloud NEVER cannonly fought a weapon and won, and furthermore he never did so without his team.

Yes, we all know the black mages are nothing special. I believe it was YOUR point supporting Cloud that he would defeat many of them. My point was that doesn't place him above Beatrix. Everyone drops those things.

Originally posted by TacDavey
You start off by comparing Beatrix to Sephiroth. That's a mistake right off the bat. Sure, Beatrix isn't on Sephiroths level. And guess what, neither is Cloud. Not even close. So this shows absolutely nothing.

And yes, Beatrix can attack with magic. She has holy for starters as well as things like shock etc. Something Cloud doesn't have, might I remind you.

What makes me think it's the strongest army in the world? I said one of them. The only other would be... uh... that other kingdom, the name escapes me, the one they escaped to after leaving Alexandria. Limblum or something? Those two are the most powerful armies in that world. And Linblum is powerful mostly because of it's airship technology.

There was absolutely nothing to suggest she was getting tired fighting monsters in Alexandria. Steigner was the one having trouble in that fight, not Beatrix.

Cloud can't use materia because he does not have any canon use of it.

Just because Cloud fought more in his game does NOT make him stronger. Cloud NEVER cannonly fought a weapon and won, and furthermore he never did so without his team.

Yes, we all know the black mages are nothing special. I believe it was YOUR point supporting Cloud that he would defeat many of them. My point was that doesn't place him above Beatrix. Everyone drops those things.

Guess what, Sephiroth is the absolutely best of his world, Beatrix is just known in a continent. So the comparison seems pausible enough to me. I know Cloud isn't on Sephiroth's level, you don' need to remind me that.

So being able to cast Holy proves so much, huh? Sephiroth's Telekinesis says hi. Cloud doesn't use Magic through Materia? And Holy is canonically used by Beatrix? I think nope. Sure, Beatrix must fight with the help of magic abilities infusing her blade. Shock? Steiner was also capable of performing such things, was he not? Cloud's Limit Breaks > Shock.

If not THE strongest of the world, you said. Correct, Lindblum is a strong kingdom in the Final Fantasy IX Universe, but not due of the airships. Can you tell me what kind of soldiers (and from where) Beatrix has fought? I think that is never specified, but if you do know, let me know. Black Mages are NOTHING special you just said...? Hmm, ask the Lindblum soldiers, then. Also, ask the people of Cleyra and do not forget to ask the people of Burmecia (including its soldiers).

Cloud did fought Diamond WEAPON in canon, and is even pausible to assume he did fought the rest of them. That's not the point though. A WEAPON would vanish an army of soldiers, and by army, I mean an army. Not 100 soldiers. Cloud being able to defeat it with a few people with him (his team) shows a great feat.

As for the battle in Alexandria, Steiner said "is just a scratch", I don't consider that as having trouble at all, and I bet it was for protecting her, I base it off of that he in fact said he shall protect her while fighting. Beatrix, however, among his lines says "This is futile! Let us return to the castle!". Why? She was scared? If not, the she was getting kind of tired.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Guess what, Sephiroth is the absolutely best of his world, Beatrix is just known in a continent. So the comparison seems pausible enough to me. I know Cloud isn't on Sephiroth's level, you don' need to remind me that.

So what? Irrelevant. All of it. Completely and utterly irrelevant. Cloud isn't stronger than Sephiroth. What do you think this shows? All you have provided is a character that is stronger than BOTH of them. Nothing more. Why did you bring Sephiroth into this if you know Cloud isn't stronger? We are talking about Cloud and Beatrix, not beatrix and Sephiroth.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So being able to cast Holy proves so much, huh? Sephiroth's Telekinesis says hi. Cloud doesn't use Magic through Materia? And Holy is canonically used by Beatrix? I think nope. Sure, Beatrix must fight with the help of magic abilities infusing her blade. Shock? Steiner was also capable of performing such things, was he not? Cloud's Limit Breaks > Shock.

Why the crap are you bringing Sephiroth into this debate again?! Honestly. Sephiroth is stronger than Beatrix. I know that. IT SHOWS NOTHING! Yes, Holy is canonly a spell that she knows. Just like shock and thunderslash. And why do I care that Steigner can use shock? Dagger can also use holy. So what? Who cares if there are other characters who can use those attacks? You asked if she can attack with magic. I answered your question. Nothing more.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
If not THE strongest of the world, you said. Correct, Lindblum is a strong kingdom in the Final Fantasy IX Universe, but not due of the airships. Can you tell me what kind of soldiers (and from where) Beatrix has fought? I think that is never specified, but if you do know, let me know. Black Mages are NOTHING special you just said...? Hmm, ask the Lindblum soldiers, then. Also, ask the people of Cleyra and do not forget to ask the people of Burmecia (including its soldiers).

Yeah. It's debatable weather it's the strongest army in the world. It's either that one or Linblum. One or the other, though it's not really clear which one. The black mages are more powerful than regular soldiers, for the most part, but they are still far less powerful than any main character.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud did fought Diamond WEAPON in canon, and is even pausible to assume he did fought the rest of them. That's not the point though. A WEAPON would vanish an army of soldiers, and by army, I mean an army. Not 100 soldiers. Cloud being able to defeat it with a few people with him (his team) shows a great feat.

Did you completely forget FF7? Cloud didn't defeat that weapon at all!!! All your attacks do, like 1 or 0 damage. If you survive long enough, it gets shot with the mana canon. Cloud did NOT defeat it, or even come close to scratching the thing.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
As for the battle in Alexandria, Steiner said "is just a scratch", I don't consider that as having trouble at all, and I bet it was for protecting her, I base it off of that he in fact said he shall protect her while fighting. Beatrix, however, among his lines says "This is futile! Let us return to the castle!". Why? She was scared? If not, the she was getting kind of tired.

You never tire of baseless assumptions do you? Well he PROBABLY got that scratch from protecting her, never mind he got it before saying that. Well, she was PROBABLY scared, and that's why she wanted to return to the castle. No, she wanted to return to the castle for Steigner's sake. He was wounded and doubled over out of breath at that point. He was obviously not doing all that well.

Originally posted by TacDavey
So what? Irrelevant. All of it. Completely and utterly irrelevant. Cloud isn't stronger than Sephiroth. What do you think this shows? All you have provided is a character that is stronger than BOTH of them. Nothing more. Why did you bring Sephiroth into this if you know Cloud isn't stronger? We are talking about Cloud and Beatrix, not beatrix and Sephiroth.

Why the crap are you bringing Sephiroth into this debate again?! Honestly. Sephiroth is stronger than Beatrix. I know that. IT SHOWS NOTHING! Yes, Holy is canonly a spell that she knows. Just like shock and thunderslash. And why do I care that Steigner can use shock? Dagger can also use holy. So what? Who cares if there are other characters who can use those attacks? You asked if she can attack with magic. I answered your question. Nothing more.

Because at least, Cloud endured a battle against Sephiroth, who is the best of the best, EVEN if he was giving all of his strength to it and Sephiroth didn't break a sweat, forget it. But yeah, I suppose Cloud's battles means nothing, right? Then how the hell do you demonstrate that one character may win over another by fighting? By looking at their achievements, battles, etc. Remember that you always use the stab argument to combat Squall? You don't use anything besides that thing that has been proven wrong multiple times already to prove he can win. But of course... if not, why Beatrix's fight with some soldiers is SO important? It can be a big deal for Zidane and Freya maybe (which both of them were unexperienced in battle), not for Cloud. It wouldn't surprise me either, the Final Fantasy IX characters are an automatic productive-machine of lost battles, they are beaten and owned throughout the game so many times that is not even funny. Cloud is individually as weak and experienced as those soldiers? I think the answer is absolutely no. He could take those soldiers as well, and I'd say faster than Beatrix because he's genetically enhanced by Jenova Cells and Mako, thus super-human. Hell, even Steiner would defeat many of those by himself, because he's an strong captain of the kingdom, 20 soldiers of those wouldn't equal Steiner's capabilities in combat.

What the hell are you talking about?!! Holy is CANONICALLY used by HER? Are you COMPLETELY sure? I would love to see that. Please? On the other hand, you said Cloud can't use Magic? Yet Beatrix CAN? Aren't you biased here? The usage of Materia is canon on Final Fantasy VII, and the characters have been using Materia in the story, Cloud did already came with Thunder, Blizzard and even the Cure Magic before the game starts, we CAN'T say the same about Beatrix now, can we? Cloud doesn't use it anymore though, because Materia drains the Planet's energy, so the characters have decided to not use them. That's why I said Cloud could use Magic IF he is allowed. So you don't have to be the best on the continent or anything to be able to learn Holy and Shock then, neither incredibly powerful magic-wise since Garnet, Eiko and Steiner could. And why you said "She has holy for starters as well as things like shock etc. Something Cloud doesn't have, might I remind you."? With that paragraph, you were literally making it sound like it is a BIG deal and that you have to be extremely powerful and the best in among many to learn Holy and Shock. Guess what, neither of those is true. Tell Beatrix to learn Telekinesis and something called Omnislash, which by the way > Thunderslash.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yeah. It's debatable weather it's the strongest army in the world. It's either that one or Linblum. One or the other, though it's not really clear which one. The black mages are more powerful than regular soldiers, for the most part, but they are still far less powerful than any main character.

Did you completely forget FF7? Cloud didn't defeat that weapon at all!!! All your attacks do, like 1 or 0 damage. If you survive long enough, it gets shot with the mana canon. Cloud did NOT defeat it, or even come close to scratching the thing.

You never tire of baseless assumptions do you? Well he PROBABLY got that scratch from protecting her, never mind he got it before saying that. Well, she was PROBABLY scared, and that's why she wanted to return to the castle. No, she wanted to return to the castle for Steigner's sake. He was wounded and doubled over out of breath at that point. He was obviously not doing all that well.

Alexandria is only strong due of the Black Mages, the three Black Waltz and Eidolons, nothing more, which by the way, are an outside help. Those female soldiers from Beatrix doesn't seems to be very strong, but at least stronger than those stupid Knights of Pluto, they look retarded and with an IQ of -5000. Fighting soldiers is common in Final Fantasy just as fighting monsters. But it seems that fighting Black Mages it isn't in Final Fantasy IX. FAR LESS powerful? Oh really...? Do you think Eiko would be able to defeat many Black Mages by herself? What about Steiner? What about Quina? Zidane, Freya and Vivi pretty much had trouble with them, if I recall correctly, and they were saved by that rat Fatley which is a wimp compared to Cloud.

It seems that the one who forgot about Final Fantasy VII is NOT ME. Sapphire WEAPON was the one that has been taken down solely with a cannon (in Junon), not Diamond. Diamond WEAPON is fought near the end of the game when it was approaching to Midgar, by Cloud and his party. It can be pretty much damaged by them so I don't know what the hell do you mean by "1 and 0". Some weak soldiers are garbage compared to ANY WEAPON, face it. The entire Shinra Infantry army with all of his heavy artillery did nothing to Sapphire, they had to use the gigantic Sister Ray Mako cannon to take it down, the same happened to Diamond, which it has been taken down with a even more powerful cannon powered by all of the Mako Reactors. Even IF Cloud did managed to do a simple and insignificant mark on that thing, is STILL pretty much a great feat. I would pay one million dolars to see the Knights of Pluto with a bunch of Black Mages trying to hurt a WEAPON. Lmao.

So she wanted to return to the castle because of Steiner? And I am the one doing assumptions? She PROBABLY wanted to return to the castle due of Steiner's sake. See what I did there...? Never mind he said he shall protect her AFTER that, he may be taking hits or THE hit for her, and getting a scratch is not trouble at all, they are FIGHTING, so guess that, getting hurt in a battle is pretty common, he pretty much continued doing so. The point is that BOTH of them had kind of trouble, and she was aided by Steiner in all of those battles, it's not like she did not needed him at all. He was fighting damn well.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Because at least, Cloud endured a battle against Sephiroth, who is the best of the best, EVEN if he was giving all of his strength to it and Sephiroth didn't break a sweat, forget it. But yeah, I suppose Cloud's battles means nothing, right? Then how the hell do you demonstrate that one character may win over another by fighting? By looking at their achievements, battles, etc. Remember that you always use the stab argument to combat Squall? You don't use anything besides that thing that has been proven wrong multiple times already to prove he can win. But of course... if not, why Beatrix's fight with some soldiers is SO important? It can be a big deal for Zidane and Freya maybe (which both of them were unexperienced in battle), not for Cloud. It wouldn't surprise me either, the Final Fantasy IX characters are an automatic productive-machine of lost battles, they are beaten and owned throughout the game so many times that is not even funny. Cloud is individually as weak and experienced as those soldiers? I think the answer is absolutely no. He could take those soldiers as well, and I'd say faster than Beatrix because he's genetically enhanced by Jenova Cells and Mako, thus super-human. Hell, even Steiner would defeat many of those by himself, because he's an strong captain of the kingdom, 20 soldiers of those wouldn't equal Steiner's capabilities in combat.

We can't draw any conclusions about Clouds strength from a battle he LOST, can we? How are we suppose to be able to judge Clouds strength? The only thing we can take from Cloud vs Sephiroth is that Sephiroth is stronger. Nothing more. And Sephiroth is stronger than Beatrix, so in the end it says nothing.

Look at it this way. You have character A and Character B. Which one is stronger? Well, what do we know about them? Character C can beat both of them. Now tell me. Which character is stronger? Character A or Character B? Before I am willing to continue this part of the discussion, I want that question answered and I want your reasons behind who you chose.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What the hell are you talking about?!! Holy is CANONICALLY used by HER? Are you COMPLETELY sure? I would love to see that. Please? On the other hand, you said Cloud can't use Magic? Yet Beatrix CAN? Aren't you biased here? The usage of Materia is canon on Final Fantasy VII, and the characters have been using Materia in the story, Cloud did already came with Thunder, Blizzard and even the Cure Magic before the game starts, we CAN'T say the same about Beatrix now, can we? Cloud doesn't use it anymore though, because Materia drains the Planet's energy, so the characters have decided to not use them. That's why I said Cloud could use Magic IF he is allowed. So you don't have to be the best on the continent or anything to be able to learn Holy and Shock then, neither incredibly powerful magic-wise since Garnet, Eiko and Steiner could. And why you said "She has holy for starters as well as things like shock etc. [b]Something Cloud doesn't have, might I remind you."? With that paragraph, you were literally making it sound like it is a BIG deal and that you have to be extremely powerful and the best in among many to learn Holy and Shock. Guess what, neither of those is true. Tell Beatrix to learn Telekinesis and something called Omnislash, which by the way > Thunderslash. [/B]

Yes, Beatrix CANONLY knows Holy. It's one of her spells. The same can't be said of Cloud. He may get materia through the game, but he doesn't have to equip it! That's the whole point! Beatrix absolutely 100% knows holy. It isn't something that can be changed or edited by the player. But materia IS. If I don't want Cloud using Thunder or Blizzard, guess what. Off they go. 100% up to me, the player, to decide ALL of Clouds magic abilities. Not a single one of them is canonly Clouds magic. They can be 100% edited at will.

You do have to be moderately powerful to learn both those spells, but that isn't even the point! The point is Beatrix has set skills that she knows and we know she knows. Cloud does not. Cloud is ALMOST as editable as Vaan from FF12.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Alexandria is only strong due of the Black Mages, the three Black Waltz and Eidolons, nothing more, which by the way, are an outside help. Those female soldiers from Beatrix doesn't seems to be very strong, but at least stronger than those stupid Knights of Pluto, they look retarded and with an IQ of -5000. Fighting soldiers is common in Final Fantasy just as fighting monsters. But it seems that fighting Black Mages it isn't in Final Fantasy IX. FAR LESS powerful? Oh really...? Do you think Eiko would be able to defeat many Black Mages by herself? What about Steiner? What about Quina? Zidane, Freya and Vivi pretty much had trouble with them, if I recall correctly, and they were saved by that rat Fatley which is a wimp compared to Cloud.

WRONG! The Black Mages were a new threat. They came in once the army invaded Linblum and hadn't been seen before that. Kuja had just supplied them with the Black Mages and that was what tipped the scales in favor of Alexandria.

Yes, I think Eiko, Steigner and pretty much everyone can take those things out pretty easily. The only reason Fratly had to come in and help out was because Zidane was trying to protect the villagers and there were too many to try and protect them all. He was dropping mages left and right in that fight if you remember correctly, you fight them all throughout that scene.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
It seems that the one who forgot about Final Fantasy VII is NOT ME. Sapphire WEAPON was the one that has been taken down solely with a cannon (in Junon), not Diamond. Diamond WEAPON is fought near the end of the game when it was approaching to Midgar, by Cloud and his party. It can be pretty much damaged by them so I don't know what the hell do you mean by "1 and 0". Some weak soldiers are garbage compared to ANY WEAPON, face it. The entire Shinra Infantry army with all of his heavy artillery did nothing to Sapphire, they had to use the gigantic Sister Ray Mako cannon to take it down, the same happened to Diamond, which it has been taken down with a even more powerful cannon powered by all of the Mako Reactors. Even IF Cloud did managed to do a simple and insignificant mark on that thing, is STILL pretty much a great feat. I would pay one million dolars to see the Knights of Pluto with a bunch of Black Mages trying to hurt a WEAPON. Lmao.

Wrong again. Cloud never defeated Diamond Weapon, though admittedly I was wrong about the 1 and 0. Still, you don't win that fight. Cloud NEVER defeated that weapon, it was the canon that killed it. Cloud can take NO CREDIT for it's death.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
So she wanted to return to the castle because of Steiner? And I am the one doing assumptions? She PROBABLY wanted to return to the castle due of Steiner's sake. See what I did there...? Never mind he said he shall protect her AFTER that, he may be taking hits or THE hit for her, and getting a scratch is not trouble at all, they are FIGHTING, so guess that, getting hurt in a battle is pretty common, he pretty much continued doing so. The point is that BOTH of them had kind of trouble, and she was aided by Steiner in all of those battles, it's not like she did not needed him at all. He was fighting damn well.

I'm not making baseless assumptions. Beatrix was fine. She wasn't hurt, or out of breath or anything. She was fighting along side Steigner, who was the one out of breath and wounded. Beatrix was 100% fine that we could see. Steigner was the only one having trouble in that fight.

1. It's clear that your FFIX party at the point you fight Beatrix isn't nearly as strong as end of game party. EoG your party has 12 Eidolons including Odin, Bahamut and Atomos and Zidane has grown hugely in power as stated by Garland.
/watch?v=Kso_0PnIGHQ&feature=related 06:40 --> and 09:28 -->

2. Kuja can use Ultima in combat, he effortlesly destroyed your party with one casual Ultima when he Tranced for the first time.

3. Kuja was holding back for the whole time in the final battle. Any too powerful attack could've destroyed the Crystal and thus would've been a suicide. Once he used his true power he instantly killed the party. Also it was his own attack that maimed him, not any attack from the party. And even if they did, it might've just been Dagger and Eiko summoning Eidolon after Eidolon dropping nukes on Kuja.

4. Defeating 100 soldiers is poor feat compared to what any Eidolon from FFIX could do.

5. Had Beatrix defeated EoG party - that would be absurdly impressive feat, but the people she defeats don't have much going for them at the time.

6. Cloud wins. Implying that Beatrix wouldn't get crushed instantly against Trance Kuja like a little bug is ridiculous. Nothing from FFIX world other than Necron would pose Trance Kuja any threat whatsoever without PIS. Not Eidolons, not your party. Even story wise he crushed your party, who need I remind you had all Eidolons the world had to offer. Thus saying that Beatrix wins because Trance Kuja is stronger than Cloud is faulty.

7. I don't want to bash Beatrix but defeating 100 knights and your party from beginning of second disc, altought impressive, isn't enough feats to put him on bar with Cloud.

Originally posted by Jeesus
1. It's clear that your FFIX party at the point you fight Beatrix isn't nearly as strong as end of game party. EoG your party has 12 Eidolons including Odin, Bahamut and Atomos and Zidane has grown hugely in power as stated by Garland.
/watch?v=Kso_0PnIGHQ&feature=related 06:40 --> and 09:28 -->

I don't think that link you sent me was correct. The time you gave me was Zidane dodging roots and talking to Kuja at the end.

And I'm sure the party is stronger at the time. I forgot what point was trying to be made here. It's been some time since this thread was going.

Originally posted by Jeesus
2. Kuja can use Ultima in combat, he effortlesly destroyed your party with one casual Ultima when he Tranced for the first time.

I don't know if this was a response to me, but I don't remember ever denying Kuja could use Ultima in battle.

Originally posted by Jeesus
3. Kuja was holding back for the whole time in the final battle. Any too powerful attack could've destroyed the Crystal and thus would've been a suicide. Once he used his true power he instantly killed the party. Also it was his own attack that maimed him, not any attack from the party. And even if they did, it might've just been Dagger and Eiko summoning Eidolon after Eidolon dropping nukes on Kuja.

Are you sure? Kuja says at the end "After you guys beat me..." Kuja's ultima was a last ditch effort because he was loosing that fight.

Originally posted by Jeesus
4. Defeating 100 soldiers is poor feat compared to what any Eidolon from FFIX could do.

Cloud isn't an eidolon, so I don't see how this is relevant.

Originally posted by Jeesus
5. Had Beatrix defeated EoG party - that would be absurdly impressive feat, but the people she defeats don't have much going for them at the time.

I wouldn't say that. They were pretty strong when they fought her at the castle. Not to mention you can see even when Bahamut is attacking the town Beatrix still has a leg up on Steiner.

Originally posted by Jeesus
6. Cloud wins. Implying that Beatrix wouldn't get crushed instantly against Trance Kuja like a little bug is ridiculous. Nothing from FFIX world other than Necron would pose Trance Kuja any threat whatsoever without PIS. Not Eidolons, not your party. Even story wise he crushed your party, who need I remind you had all Eidolons the world had to offer. Thus saying that Beatrix wins because Trance Kuja is stronger than Cloud is faulty.

I don't believe I ever said Beatrix was stronger than Trance Kuja. I said she was stronger than Zidane.

Originally posted by Jeesus
7. I don't want to bash Beatrix but defeating 100 knights and your party from beginning of second disc, altought impressive, isn't enough feats to put him on bar with Cloud.

The 100 knights was only a small part of the argument.

Cloud wins with his bare hands.

That's basically my contribution to this thread.

Thank me.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Cloud wins with his bare hands.

That's basically my contribution to this thread.

Thank me.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Cloud wins with his bare hands.

That's basically my contribution to this thread.

Thank me.

Pretty much.

It didn't need over 4 pages of this.

Also, forgive my double post guys, but I'll go into more detail based on my studies of Cloud's feats.

Strenght/Striking power

YouTube video

3:45 onwards, Cloud easily swats down Bahamut Sin from the air. Might I add that this was done with an incomplete blade(when adjoining blades is a way for Cloud to deal stronger attacks) and when Cloud was ill with Geostigma?

Now, to get a good grasp at Bahamut Sin's height, take a look at this scan:

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/f/f8/Bahamut_SIN_flying.jpg

Bahamut Sin is a little bigger than 5 stories, around 50 feet. Not to mention his armor and wing-span, which would add even more to the weight.

At 4:27 onwards, Cloud finalizes Bahamut SIN with his Climhazzard limit-break. Keep in mind thw whole of AVALANCHE attacking Sin for a total of two hours did not break the creature's durability. Yet when Cloud arrived, he cracked the beasts armor, and then one-shot it with his limit.

YouTube video

7:12-7-23

Cloud bifurcates part of the Omega Weapon with what appears to be a single slash with one sword.

To understand this feat, you must first understand the durability of one of these weapons:

YouTube video

Here the Sapphire Weapon is hit directly by a shot from the unamped Mako Cannon and is unscathed. Rufus and Heideggar even comment on how that is possible since they hit It dead on.

Now, the Weapon cut by Cloud was the Ultimate Weapon, known as Omega. Which can be scaled with Sapphire since all Weapons are mako constructs, and good chances are Omega is a bit more durable, since It's, well the Ultimate. Now on to the force of a shot from the Mako Cannon:

YouTube video

This video explicits that AVALANCHE was going to use the Cannon to destroy the city of Midgat Itself. Confirmed by the narrator and multiple characters.

Conclusion: Cloud has City-level strikes when not-limit breaking with one sword.

"[ Approximately 2000 years before FFVII ]

· Jenova crashes into the planet riding a meteor. This location becomes known as the Great
Northern Crater. The Cetra gather at this location to heal the planet and are confronted by Jenova. Jenova nearly wipes out the entire Cetra race before it is defeated and sealed in a geological stratum."

http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/timeline.php

Which clearly is true based on the gigantic crater that covers the Northern Continent in FFVII.

Now, Jenova was not only able to survive space travel in a lifeless rock, but her body tanked re-entry and the impact force of a meteor strike(not to mention the huge explosion that comes with It), without having It's body destroyed, and shortly after leaving the crater to confront the nearby Cetra whom the planet had warned to flee.

There are many versions of the following scene, and in all of them the same event happens, Sephiroth easily be-heads Jenova with one slash. Yes. He easily be-heads the creature whose body was not turned to pasty ash on the floor by a meteor strike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdGYaFDPlks

16:03 onwards.

Needless to say, I think, that this is Sephiroth's weakest incarnation. And this is AC/C Cloud, who can match AC/C Sephiroth in strenght, whose a transcended form of an upgrade of Sephiroth's BC/CC incarnation.

Also, It's a mistranslation that Sephiroth was not trying in his fight with Cloud(physically at least), this is the translation about the fight:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7857/119tee.jpg

Durability

At 4:23 onwards you see Bahamut Sin fire It's Tremor Flare at Cloud and consequently, Edge.

Cloud after getting some emotional support from his dead friend, Aerith, emerges from the attack completely unscathed.

Now, how does this constitute to a strenght feat? Well, the simple fact that Cloud can match Sephiroth in strenght, and Sephiroth can break Cloud's durability. But first, you need to understand the power of the flare.

A human sized megaflare from Sin demolished a pretty large building alone, and another one destroyed a very large are when trying to hit Barret.

Now, take a look at the size of the Tremor Flare:

So. Here's Cloud's size in relation to the attack. Bear in mind he's 5'7.

http://i49.tinypic.com/dpd20h.png

Here's Bahamut Tremor's size in relation to the attack. Bahamut is 5 stories tall. That's around 50 feet

http://i46.tinypic.com/2arbjo.png

Taking into consideration logical scaling, the attack is a likely city-buster, and if not a solid town-level. Meaning Sephiroth has at least around City/town level striking power and strenght basing off only the Tremor Flare feat.

YouTube video

8:58

The result of that massive energy release? Here:

YouTube video

Remember, that hole led to the planet's core. Cloud was physically unaffected.

He also tanked a large building buster here, unscathed.

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/4493/screenshot001au.png

Speed

Has moved faster than lightning.

YouTube video

3:16-3:20

YouTube video

At around 5:08 into this video you get Sephiroth's explanation on how materia works. He explains that "When you condense mako energy, materia is produced." This point alone gives a lot of credit to materia producing magic from nature itself. As Mako energy is a condensed form of Lifestream and Lifestream is literately what creates everything on the planet. It is nature. So in essence, controlling materia is controlling nature. But continuing on with what Sephiroth explains...

"The Knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can freely powers of the land and the planet. The knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet calling up magic... Or so they say" (6:08)

This is only further enforced by the ideology of the Cetra (Ancients) themselves. They were extremely in tune with the planet. Even so to the point where they could hear the planet speaking to them. Even though it's irrelevant, this video proves that at 5:35. Their bond with the planet was so close that they were able to call up magic from the planet even before materia was manufactured. Meaning they had to connect to the planet itself and call forth natural elements to summon up the magic.

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/9841/proofi.jpg

Is far faster than Zack:

YouTube video

1:24-3:00

YouTube video

5:00 to the rest.

Has kept up with Sephiroth in speed.

Some feats for now. Might post more later.

I can't imagine anyone ever bothering to read that shit.

Well, since this thread was running mostly against a unfeated character with incorrect powerscaling, I thought I might've just layed out Cloud's best feats already.

Apologies for the lenght though.

tl;Dr

Cloud is superior in every aspect. He wins.