Originally posted by Shoes
Nonetheless, Maul was depicted as being the superior swordsman. His "loss" being a result of PIS doesn't hinder Maul in any way, although I agree with his skill in contrast to Qui-Gon's.
its not really PIS though. the reason why obi-wan didnt die is PIS. maul standing there and watching in disbelief is a lack of adaptative reflexes. its the same reason why he got put on his ass 20 seconds prior. 😄
Re: Darth Maul vs. General Grievous
Originally posted by john allerdyce
*This is a pure saber to saber duel. Maul is not allowed to use the force offensively against Grievous at all.*Maul gets his double bladed lightsaber, and Grievous has access to four lightsabers.
*This will be Grievous when he was healthy (before Mace crushed his chest.)
*Battle takes place in a completely flat desert setting.
Who is the better duelist?
Can we really substantiate Grievous fighting a Jedi or Sith of Maul's calibre? Maul defeated Qui-Gon Jinn's defense in close; Jinn who was noted as being Mace's equal at the time. This is quite the feat. At the moment, I can't think of anyone Grievous has destroyed in fair combat of the same quality.
Re: Re: Darth Maul vs. General Grievous
Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
Jinn who was noted as being Mace's equal at the time. This is quite the feat.
Prove this feat. Don't use wiki. Page number of your source please. This keeps getting brought up, but no one has been able to quote it.
Argument for Grievous:
Originally posted by truejedi
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I want a page number, that's all. preferably a scanned page.
It's in the The New Essential Guide to Characters, which I don't currently possess. Therefore, you'll have to wait until I can specify a page number and hopefully retrieve a scan.
Or you can just get the guide yourself to see.
Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
It's in the The New Essential Guide to Characters, which I don't currently possess. Therefore, you'll have to wait until I can specify a page number and hopefully retrieve a scan.Or you can just get the guide yourself to see.
See, this has been disputed recently. According to someone who DOES possess it, it ISN'T in there. It says it is on wiki, but without a page number, we have to assume that it is a fallacious reference. You are welcome to look for it though.
Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
So someone asserted it wasn't there and they owned it, therefore it doesn't exist? Did they show you any scans or photos of their copy, I wonder?
Yes!!! This was from Galan007, earlier today.
http://img522.imageshack.us/i/quigon1.jpg/
http://img192.imageshack.us/i/quigon2.jpg/
http://img64.imageshack.us/i/mace1h.jpg/
http://img37.imageshack.us/i/mace2.jpg/
See? The is from TNEGC. It's not in there.
Originally posted by truejedi
This: DP, was a good reply!.
I was trying to explain the same thing before hoping I wuldnt have to get the novel out. Lol
Originally posted by truejedi
Your interpretation of the films is your opinion. you intepreted the fight as Maul dominating, but if someone else thought he was fighting a close fight, you would need the novel (like i've been using, and you have finally done as well.) to back your opinion.
I understand your point, and a more even fight would certainly be down to interpretaion, but I dnt see how anyone can interpret what happened in the movie any differently.
The first time QUI-Gon fought Maul on tatooine, Maul had him backing off quite desperately, it only lasted about 35 seconds at which point Maul was just fine, but Qui-Gon fell to the floor.
Originally posted by truejedi
You offered nothing, and the novel offers nothing, and the movie offers nothing to suggest that Maul was anything more than merely stunned by his fall..
Except for the fact that the fight changed after that fall. Before Maul seemed more than a match for the both of them, whilst only after that fall was Qui-Gon able to advance on Maul for the first time, and only after that fall were both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan able to put up a decent fight individually, where as before even together they were struggling against the Beast that is Maul.
Originally posted by truejedi
Considering he "struggled back to his feet quickly and raced away, taking the battle in a new direction"..
Well he culdnt really afford to take his time, and racing away doesnt seem like the fight was going in his favour anymore.
Originally posted by truejedi
Your implication that he was diminished as a combatant by the fall is pure speculation."
I admit there is an element of speculation there, but reasonable speculation I think considering the facts of how the fight went before and after that fall. I mean just look at that hit he took. You could hear the "thud" and he fell flat on his back!
Originally posted by truejedi
This is referring to Yoda. It is a good quote, but it is easily countered with: (same page) "but...QGJ was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength beginning to diminish. His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him.
Ah but the argument is that Maul was far better than TPM Qui-Gon, not Qui-Gon in his prime.
So Maul was more skilled in weapons combat, Stronger, and had much much better stamina than TPM Qui-Gon, therefore Maul was far greater then TPM Qui-Gon.
The fact that his weapons combat skills was greater than Qui-Gon, shows he would also be greater than Qui-Gon with his body at his prime, even with the skill and combat experience he had gained by TPM.
And considering the Beast Maul is you can pretty much bet Maul would still be stronger and would almost definetely still have better stamina.
Originally posted by truejedi
Nope, you are assuming 2 things.
1. That Kenobi is a Knight (he is still a padawan)
2., that he was helping a great deal.
1. Calling him a padawan is just playing with words. We all know his training was complete and he was knighted in the same movie.
2. Oh he did help a great great deal. We saw on tatooine Qui-Gon hardly lasts over 30-40 seconds against Maul without Obi-Wan there. In the end duel, Maul kicked Qui-Gon onto his butt quite early on in the fight, Only having Obi-Wan there kept him going for so long.
Originally posted by truejedi
But according to Pg 283: "Obi-wan brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened.
Well yeah he wasnt in his prime or anything. Doesnt mean he wasnt still a formidable opponent.
Originally posted by truejedi
Pg. 285: "QGJ had trained Obi-Wan, and while the younger Jedi was not yet his equal..."
Yes as of TPM Qui-Gon > Obi-wan. Thats obvious. But does that mean he wasnt a formidable ally? No. Does that mean Qui-Gon>>>>>Obiwan? No. He kept up with Qui-Gon for most the battle.
Originally posted by truejedi
You are working from a place where you see Kenobi as doing half the work to keep Maul at Bay, and this is simply not the truth. At least half the duel, Kenobi isn't even there.
Nah, that was less than half the duel, and like I said the fight changed completely after Maul took that hit. Yeah Obi-Wan was definetely helping A LOT.
Originally posted by truejedi
I like this. You even summarized your argument! The question wasn't however, "was maul better? " It was how much better? You are making a small leap from : "Maul was a little better than both==Maul was much better than QGJ" I just don't see that yet.
Stronger + Better Combat Skills + Much Much Better Stamin = Far Far Better. Im not sure where you cant see that.
Originally posted by truejedi
As for your quote about QGJ being in the class of Fisto and Kolar, it was out of date, and even described as out of date.
Ou of date?? How?? It was talking about his duelling skills. And iv read that about Qui-Gon being one of the best duellists of TPM era in many places. So how can that be out of date.
Originally posted by truejedi
Just out of curiousity, where did Grievous face Kolar? I've not seen that bit.
I seem to remember that in CW animation, but my memory is a bot foggy on that one, so I might be wrong. But Kit Fisto defo happened. And as far as I know Kolar was a better duellist than Fisto.
