Darth Maul vs. General Grievous

I found an excerpt from Labyrinth of Evil to be quite interesting:

"Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries...

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad - - the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled...

Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance...

Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed...

Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep. Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully. Had he fallen into the canyon? Had he managed to dig his duranium claws into the side of the car or grab hold of the mag-lev rail itself? Mace couldn't take the time to puzzle it out..."

As you can see, this novel painted quite an astonishing picture of Grievous. Made it seem as though he was Mace's near-equal in saber to saber combat - and keep in mind that GG was only using two lightsabers during the above battle.

Just some food for thought. 🙂

Hm, I'm starting to develop a view of force users that separates dueling skill and force more...

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, I'm starting to develop a view of force users that separates dueling skill and force more...

Please expound on this statement.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, I'm starting to develop a view of force users that separates dueling skill and force more...

For instance, in the Labyrinth Of Evil quote I posted, Grievous was seemingly on Mace's level where saber to saber combat is concerned. Hell, GG was even able to adapt a variation of Vaapad (a form he'd never encountered before) on the fly... But later on when Mace was in a position where he could use the force in a more offensive manner against Grievous (Coruscant) he delivered a single, crippling, attack.

So yeah, in one setting where Mace wasn't really in a position to use the force to his advantage and had to stick with saber combat, he and Grievous were near-equals (with GG only using 2/4 of his lightsabers.) Yet in another setting where the force could be applied, Mace made short work of the good General.

Dueling skill and force powers: two sides of the same coin.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Please expound on this statement.

Well, I used to think that the two tended to be fairly closely tied, realizing there was a difference but most of the time thinking they lined up *relatively* closely, but now I get the impression that someone who's overall quite a bit weaker in the force may be better with a sword, or vice-versa.

Mace is one of the strongest Jedi ever, but now I'm thinking probably isn't much better of a duelist than Dooku or Obi-Wan, if at all (it wouldn't surprise me if Dooku was better). But he's stronger in the force. Obi-wan's likely near the top of duelists, he's just much weaker in the force than Dooku, Mace, etc..

This is all just my current perception, btw, and I adjust as people present more info and arguments, so largely in the speculation category.

Um . . . Obi-Wan was the greatest Soresu practioner in the Jedi order. Sure he is not as powerful in the Force as Mace, but he would be on equal terms with Mace. Obi-Wan fought GG who wielded 4 blades and kicked his robotic ass and Dooku trained Grevious. Soresu is a defensive lightsaber form. Anakin used Djem So as an attack and Obi-Wan used Soresu - the two put together complemeted each other putting Dooku at a disadvantage. After Dooku pissed off Anakin, Anakin's Djem So overpowered Dooku's Makashi. If it was just Obi-Wan vs Dooku, a lengthy duel would have worn out the older Dooku.

Obi-Wan when he was kicked was knocked out - a Force push from Dooku didn't do that.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
but he would be on equal terms with Mace.

would

In what scenario could Obi-Wan ever beat Mace?

Your interpretation of the films is your opinion. you intepreted the fight as Maul dominating, but if someone else thought he was fighting a close fight, you would need the novel (like i've been using, and you have finally done as well.) to back your opinion.

Maul was dominating. The novel has been used.

Wheeling across the center of the hangar, the combatants lunged and parried,
attack and counterattack carried out in a fierce, no-holds-barred,
no-quarter - given struggle. The Sith Lord was supple and quick, and he
worked his way between the Jedi with confidence and ease, whipping his
two-ended lightsaber back and forth between them, more than holding his own
against their efforts to bring him down.

Anything suggesting Qui-Gon's superiority can be discounted as a red herring.

In what scenario could Obi-Wan ever beat Mace?

In a beating General Grievous contest. Or in a not getting your hands chopped off by Anakin contest. awepeach

Originally posted by Shoes

Anything suggesting Qui-Gon's superiority can be discounted as a red herring.

and why? Because you say so?

I'll humor you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
not getting your hands chopped off by Anakin contest.

No.

Originally posted by truejedi
and why? Because you say so?

Because of common sense.

In a beating General Grievous contest.

No.

See, I don't agree with your opinion of what common sense is for this fight. You are doing a very poor job backing up your point.

I've yet to see anything from you, except your repetitve mop-and-bucket routine, where you question everyone's authority to dictate anything that contradicts your "points" . Furthermore, if you really need it explained to you, I will gladly do so.

The novel states that both Maul > Qui-Gon, and Qui-Gon > Maul.

The end result was Maul > Qui-Gon.

Explain to me how the latter can be true.

Your point, that you have been trying to make, is that Maul was MILES beyond Qui-Gon.

Not that Maul> Qui-Gon. That is clearly the truth.

You are trying to jump straight to a Maul >>>> Qui-Gon sort of situation.

You continue to use the word dominate. You need to back that word up.

Maul>Qui-Gon.

Maul>>>>Qui-Gon? Nah.

Excuse me. Dominate is too strong a word, in which case I agree with you. I thought you were disputing Maul's victory.

F*ck that. Maul won fair-and-square. He's just not LEAGUES above Qui-Gon. Not the same way Maul is above ESB Luke.

Maul was Stronger + More Skilled Duellist + had a mcuh better stamina than Qui-Gon.

If that doesnt make Maul >>> Qui-Gon then I dnt know what does.

If on the other hand we are talking about Qui-Gon in his prime when he would have been stronger, and had a better stamina, then I would admit TPM Maul would probably just be better and not miles better.

I saw your words posting but I'll I read is "blah blah blah".

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I saw your words posting but I'll I read is "blah blah blah".

Nice. Next time ill put pretty pictures for you. Maybe that u'll comprehend.

Originally posted by Galan007
I found an excerpt from Labyrinth of Evil to be quite interesting:

"Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries...

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad - - the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled...

Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance...

Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed...

Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep. Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully. Had he fallen into the canyon? Had he managed to dig his duranium claws into the side of the car or grab hold of the mag-lev rail itself? Mace couldn't take the time to puzzle it out..."

As you can see, this novel painted quite an astonishing picture of Grievous. Made it seem as though he was Mace's near-equal in saber to saber combat - and keep in mind that GG was only using two lightsabers during the above battle.

Just some food for thought. 🙂

I can't seem to extract Grievous being nearly Mace's = from this excerpt. Let's see... Mace decides to end the duel... then proceeds to do so. Yes, I know you specified saber to saber, but I still don't interpret it as such. I wish this duel had occurred on the movies or animated series in order to supplement the novel. Anyways, thanks for the excerpt.