Originally posted by truejedi
I've already given you quotes that imply otherwise, you have pointlessly brought this back to square one with this argument. Your opinon of how a fight went is MEANINGLESS in face of canon. Its not a difficult thing to wrap your brain around. Until you can come up with some substantiation of your premise, then NO, Maul wasn't miles ahead of QGJ.In the meantime: This stands (since its canon, and not your opinion).
Since when were the Films "my opinion". They are the ultimate source of canon and George Lucas's opinion.
So your quote is meaningless in the face of the highest canon.
Not to mention iv already put that quote in context, which you had no reply to.
It was AFTER Maul landed 2 stories flate on his back. And the only reason Qui-Gon that shot in was because Maul diverted his attention fully to Obiwan for a second to dispose of him.
Now this quote is from the novel BEFORE Maul took that hit, and completely destroys Your "Opinion" that Maul was not miles better than Qui-Gon:
TPM novel chapter 22, page 287
"Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsman of the Jedi Order. The Jedi Master he had trained under had considered him one of the best the Master had taught in his more than 400 years in the order."
Presumably this was a Master Qui-gon had before Dooku. Anyway this quote alone means we dnt need to prove that Qui-Gon used to draw with Mace because this quote alone shows that not only was Qui-Gon one of the best Swordsman of the Jedi Order at the time of TPM, but he was possibly one of the best in the LAST 400 Years! That should put him in league with Fisto or Kolar, both of whom TOOLED Greivous.
Further down the same page:
"The Sith Lord he battled with Obi-Wan was MORE THAN HIS EQUAL IN WEAPONS TRAINING, and he had the advantage of being younger AND STRONGER."
So Maul was not only a better fighter than one of the best of the Order in the last 400 years, but he was also stronger.
If hes Stronger AND a more Skilled Fighter, then of course hes Overall Miles ahead of him. Because hes better in every area.
Further down:
"Together they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate."
This is clear proof that both these 2 Jedi Knights together did not have what it takes to defeat Maul. Therefore Maul is miles ahead of either one individually.
Further down page 288
"But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was CONTROLLING THE STRUGGLE....... His agility and dexterity allowed him to KEEP THEM BOTH AT BAY, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defence."
This is proof that Maul was AT LEAST a match for both these two Jedi Knight together. But probably better. Therefore he was miles and miles better than Qui-Gon whose description seems to put him in league with greats like Fisto and Kolar who have alreasy proven they are too much for Greivous to handle.
This: DP, was a good reply!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since when were the Films "my opinion". They are the ultimate source of canon and George Lucas's opinion.
So your quote is meaningless in the face of the highest canon.
No. My quote kicks the butt of your intepretation of the fight. Now, my quote is called into question because you too have used quotes as well! (which I am proud of you for)
Not to mention iv already put that quote in context, which you had no reply to.It was AFTER Maul landed 2 stories flate on his back. And the only reason Qui-Gon that shot in was because Maul diverted his attention fully to Obiwan for a second to dispose of him.
Now this quote is from the novel BEFORE Maul took that hit, and completely destroys Your "Opinion" that Maul was not miles better than Qui-Gon:
These are good quotes, but they merely establish a counter-point. They hardly destroy my argument. 'll handle them one at a time. It took you too many pages to break out a source btw, but you are learning. : )
TPM novel chapter 22, page 287
"Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsman of the Jedi Order. The Jedi Master he had trained under had considered him one of the best the Master had taught in his more than 400 years in the order."Presumably this was a Master Qui-gon had before Dooku. Anyway this quote alone means we dnt need to prove that Qui-Gon used to draw with Mace because this quote alone shows that not only was Qui-Gon one of the best Swordsman of the Jedi Order at the time of TPM, but he was possibly one of the best in the LAST 400 Years!
This is referring to Yoda. It is a good quote, but it is easily countered with: (same page) "but...QGJ was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength beginning to diminish. His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him."
"The Sith Lord he battled with Obi-Wan was MORE THAN HIS EQUAL IN WEAPONS TRAINING, and he had the advantage of being younger AND STRONGER."
Stronger than oldened QGJ. This is helping my argument, not yours, that QGJ was quite diminshed by this point.
"Together they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate."This is clear proof that both these 2 Jedi Knights together did not have what it takes to defeat Maul. Therefore Maul is miles ahead of either one individually.
Nope, you are assuming 2 things.
1. That Kenobi is a Knight (he is still a padawan)
2., that he was helping a great deal.
But according to Pg 283: "Obi-wan brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened."
Pg. 285: "QGJ had trained Obi-Wan, and while the younger Jedi was not yet his equal..."
You are working from a place where you see Kenobi as doing half the work to keep Maul at Bay, and this is simply not the truth. At least half the duel, Kenobi isn't even there.
"But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was CONTROLLING THE STRUGGLE....... His agility and dexterity allowed him to KEEP THEM BOTH AT BAY, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defence."This is proof that Maul was AT LEAST a match for both these two Jedi Knight together. But probably better. Therefore he was miles and miles better than Qui-Gon whose description seems to put him in league with greats like Fisto and Kolar who have alreasy proven they are too much for Greivous to handle.
I like this. You even summarized your argument! The question wasn't however, "was maul better? " It was how much better? You are making a small leap from : "Maul was a little better than both==Maul was much better than QGJ" I just don't see that yet.
As for your quote about QGJ being in the class of Fisto and Kolar, it was out of date, and even described as out of date.
Just out of curiousity, where did Grievous face Kolar? I've not seen that bit.
Originally posted by john allerdyceHe isn't uber. But neither is Grievous. Yoda, Mace, Palpatine are uber, and perhaps even Tyranus.
i am just not of the opinion that defeating the like's of a stamina-challenged qui-gon and obi-wan as a padawan/almost knight, places maul in some sort of "teh uber" tier.
Originally posted by truejediI never said "MILES" or "uber" but Maul is far superior to QGJ as of TPM. The film showed this. On Tatooine and on Naboo.
Until you can come up with some substantiation of your premise, then NO, Maul wasn't miles ahead of QGJ.
Originally posted by Darth TruculentThe Grievous depicted on film was probably at 50-60% to be honest. Grievous from the original CW cartoon is atleast at Maul's level in lightsaber combat. A fully healthy Grievous would destroy QGJ & Kenobi as well.
Obi-Wan did and he defeated GG. Then it is definitely possible for Maul to beat GG.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
.I never said "MILES" or "uber" but Maul is far superior to QGJ as of TPM. The film showed this. On Tatooine and on Naboo.
Far superior?
That is your opinion of what you saw. Without further substantiation, (like DP provided) , anyone with the opinion that the fight was close would have equal standing.
You need to learn to back up what you are saying.
😉
Did you see the duel on Tatooine? The aftermath and QGJ's exhaustion? How much longer do you think he could have sustained. Kenobi and Anakin are probably the closest of equals we've seen onscreen and look how long there duel lasted. Wasn't it somewhere from 10-15 minutes?
QGJ didn't even fight for a minute on Tatooine and he was exhausted after he escaped, so much that he collapsed to the floor. After sustained rest and meditation, Maul proceeded to beat QGJ in atmost 33 seconds.
Maul is far better.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
Did you see the duel on Tatooine? The aftermath and QGJ's exhaustion? How much longer do you think he could have sustained. Kenobi and Anakin are probably the closest of equals we've seen onscreen and look how long there duel lasted. Wasn't it somewhere from 10-15 minutes?QGJ didn't even fight for a minute on Tatooine and he was exhausted after he escaped, so much that he collapsed to the floor. After sustained rest and meditation, Maul proceeded to beat QGJ in atmost 33 seconds.
Maul is far better.
You posted all this before. I am asking for substantiation. I asked for it from DP and got it. From you, I got a repeated description of a fight that is described differently in the novel.
No matter how many times you say it, the novel's description of the fight matters more than yours. Since you simply keep repeating your own opinion though, i'm starting to think you are a lost cause.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
Film>Novel cannon-wise. It's directly from Lucas.The film blatantly shows that Maul is far superior. He is able to have the upper hand for the whole battle against the two Jedi, killing one and incapactitating the other.
Either you are stupid, or you don't want to understand. Either way you will never be able to write a research paper:
This:
The film blatantly shows that Maul is far superior. He is able to have the upper hand for the whole battle against the two Jedi, killing one and incapactitating the other.
Is your opinion.
Me saying It was a pretty close fight, but maul was able to pull out the win.
is my opinion, and is completely as valid as yours.
This:
QGJ) was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. QGJ might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty. ...
...Stroke for stroke, QG and Darth Maul battled about the rim of the melting pit, locked in a combat that seemed endless and forever and could be won by neither."
and this:
But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was CONTROLLING THE STRUGGLE....... His agility and dexterity allowed him to KEEP THEM BOTH AT BAY, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defence."
are our opposing viewpoints, using the novel to back us up.
Both of these views have more validity than our personal opinions of what happened.
This is the last chance I am giving you to understand the importance of backing up your argument with a source. You might not be old enough to understand this, but your opinion means nothing in the real world, and it means nothing here.
Facts only.
You surmising from what you saw onscreen that Maul was far-superior is NOT a fact. It is your opinion, and nothing else.
Any further posts with a total lack of evidence will be ignored.
Which film did you watch?
Martin..... How did Maul lose and die?
Seriously, your relying on the movie, and now your telling me that Kenobi didn't kill Maul? Yes, Kenobi did get knocked over the edge, but in a single move from an entirely untennable position combat wise, he catapaulted himself over Maul, grabbed Qui-Gon's saber, and sliced Maul in two. All the while, Maul had every advantage possible over Kenobi at that point. A single force push would have sent Kenobi to his doom in the shaft.