Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No saying all I said without exceptoion is wrong without giving reasons is an opinion which wuldnt go down well in a "research paper"I on the other hand backed up my opinions with facts about Djem So which anyone can look up.
Heres what I wrote:
"It's a variant of Form 5 designed specifically for Saber Duelling.
Form 5 was an extension of Form 3. Whilst Form 3 concentrates on defence, Form 5 extends further to deflecting the attack back onto the opponent. So that also speaks very highly of Form 5's defences.Apart from Makashi, Djem So was the only other form designed specifically for duelling. It was "possibly" better due to it's sheer Force which could give Makashi users trouble."
If theres anything in that that your saying is false, then point it out and ask me for proof. But dnt just put it all down to my opinion without at least reading up on Djem So yourself. I mean seriosuly you think I just made up all that stuff on Djem So?? Lol.
tl;dr:
1 - You are saying that experience is worth nothing.
2 - You assume Djem So is the best dueling form because it was designed speicifcally for dueling.
3 - You don't know how the superconducting loop works.
4 - You discount Vaapad, which unlike Djem So, has been confirmed as the deadliest lightsaber form.
5 - You assume Mace Windu uses Makashi.
Originally posted by Shoes1 - You are saying that experience is worth nothing.
Not exactly what I said. Just that it didnt help Dooku "his decades of combat experience are irrelevant" ROTS novel. The fighting skills and the power of the individuals are much more relevant factors.
Originally posted by Shoes
2 - You assume Djem So is the best dueling form because it was designed speicifcally for dueling.
I never said its outright THE BEST. Just that its the only other form designed specifically for saber to saber duelling, and gives makashi trouble due to its sheer power applied specifically to saber to saber duelling, so id say its definetely up there as one of the great duelling forms.
Originally posted by Shoes
3 - You don't know how the superconducting loop works.
I beleive i said im not certain how it would work on lightside anakin. If you know as a fact please tell me providing proof how the loop would work on a jedi who occasionally taps into his rage for a power boost.
If you read the ROTS novel there was a point when he was beating Dooku, but still seriously holding back on his rage.
Dooku described him as being like "Half Sith", so at most you could call him a neutral force user at that point. Hasnt fully embraced the light or the dark.
Correct me if im wrong but as far as i understand it Vapaad creates a Loop between the user and the "dark" sider.
Like i said im not 100% the loop wuldnt come into play, but iv certainly not seen any proof from anyone here that it definetely would. So iv not made up my mind yet and am keeping an open mind on this one.
Originally posted by Shoes
4 - You discount Vaapad, which unlike Djem So, has been confirmed as the deadliest lightsaber form.
I havent discounted Vapaad anywhere. Nor have I denied its the deadliest form. It certainly gives Mace a power boost. And is fast and unpredictable.
Im just saying when it comes specifically to Saber to Saber duelling, Djem So is up there amongst the best, and Anakin is the finest Djem So user Dooku has ever seen, and he at least matches Obiwan blade for blade in skill.
So though Yes Mace probably still has an advantage in skill, I wuldnt go as far as saying "Mace destroys Anakin because Vapaad is awsome and uber."
Originally posted by Shoes
5 - You assume Mace Windu uses Makashi.
What?
Originally posted by truejedi
Vapaad uses the inner darkness of the practicioner. It is effective against both dark and light side users.
Like I said Vapaad certainly gives Mace a power boost, as well as fast, lethal and unpredictable movements. But I wuldnt count Djem So out in a sword fight automatically. Djem So also has powerful strikes, and Anakin has enough raw power of his own. And technique wise Djem So is one of only 2 forms designed specifically for Saber Dueling.
Neway I was actually talking about the "Superconducting Loop" whether that would work on Light Side Anakin.
Its the "Loop" that put him on par with Sidious, and allowed him to defeat him. I actually dnt see the "Loop" coming into play against LS Anakin, as he wasnt drawing ALL his power from the Dark Side.
He was still a Jedi and a good guy, so he must have still been drawing a considerable amount of power from the Light. If you take the "Half Sith already" thing literally then Maybe he was drawing about half his power from the dark side.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not exactly what I said. Just that it didnt help Dooku "his decades of combat experience are irrelevant" ROTS novel. The fighting skills and the power of the individuals are much more relevant factors.I never said its outright THE BEST. Just that its the only other form designed specifically for saber to saber duelling, and gives makashi trouble due to its sheer power applied specifically to saber to saber duelling, so id say its definetely up there as one of the great duelling forms.
I beleive i said im not certain how it would work on lightside anakin. If you know as a fact please tell me providing proof how the loop would work on a jedi who occasionally taps into his rage for a power boost.
If you read the ROTS novel there was a point when he was beating Dooku, but still seriously holding back on his rage.Dooku described him as being like "Half Sith", so at most you could call him a neutral force user at that point. Hasnt fully embraced the light or the dark.
Correct me if im wrong but as far as i understand it Vapaad creates a Loop between the user and the "dark" sider.
Like i said im not 100% the loop wuldnt come into play, but iv certainly not seen any proof from anyone here that it definetely would. So iv not made up my mind yet and am keeping an open mind on this one.
I havent discounted Vapaad anywhere. Nor have I denied its the deadliest form. It certainly gives Mace a power boost. And is fast and unpredictable.
Im just saying when it comes specifically to Saber to Saber duelling, Djem So is up there amongst the best, and Anakin is the finest Djem So user Dooku has ever seen, and he at least matches Obiwan blade for blade in skill.So though Yes Mace probably still has an advantage in skill, I wuldnt go as far as saying "Mace destroys Anakin because Vapaad is awsome and uber."
What?
Once again, everything you just said right there, without exception, was wrong.
Originally posted by Shoes
Once again, everything you just said right there, without exception, was [b]wrong. [/B]
Originally posted by Shoes
4 - You discount Vaapad, which unlike Djem So, has been confirmed as the deadliest lightsaber form.
This is why that argument and the specific other thread don't work. There is no "superior" lightsaber form. It completely depends on who the blade wielder is.
Mace Windu using Vaapad isn't the same as any other.
Shi Cho is stated to be the least difficult of the forms to master and would therefore be assumed to be the least deadly. However, Fisto fared pretty well against Grievous with it on his own.
You can't compare Yoda to Qui Gon as duelists b/c they primarily use the same form. Yoda is a far superior swordfighter.
So, to be blunt, saying Shien/Djem So>Makashi or Vaapad>Soresu is rediculous.
Makashi IS at a disadvantage somewhat when faced against Djem So because of the brute force of the attacks, yet, someone as skilled as Tyranus would pwn any Djem So primary user not named Anakin or Vader.
Many people in the PT Order use Soresu. I seriously doubt if anybody is near as skilled with it as Kenobi is by ROTS.
It all depends on the fighters, not so much there form.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I think that you guys are misinterpreting Darth Power and Darth Martin.Forgive me if I'm wrong, but they're not saying that Anakin would in any way win, but that he'd come close, and that Djem So is a formidable form.
You are forgiven.
Proof for any of this? Your simply saying he is wrong without proof. Hardly a good argument.
Argument? Argument? I don't have to prove he is wrong, he must prove he is right. For more information, consult this:
1 - You are saying that experience is worth nothing.
2 - You assume Djem So is the best dueling form because it was designed speicifcally for dueling.
3 - You don't know how the superconducting loop works.
4 - You discount Vaapad, which unlike Djem So, has been confirmed as the deadliest lightsaber form.
5 - You assume Mace Windu uses Makashi.
Nothing DP says makes any sense.
This is why that argument and the specific other thread don't work. There is no "superior" lightsaber form. It completely depends on who the blade wielder is.Mace Windu using Vaapad isn't the same as any other.
Shi Cho is stated to be the least difficult of the forms to master and would therefore be assumed to be the least deadly. However, Fisto fared pretty well against Grievous with it on his own.
You can't compare Yoda to Qui Gon as duelists b/c they primarily use the same form. Yoda is a far superior swordfighter.
So, to be blunt, saying Shien/Djem So>Makashi or Vaapad>Soresu is rediculous.
Makashi IS at a disadvantage somewhat when faced against Djem So because of the brute force of the attacks, yet, someone as skilled as Tyranus would pwn any Djem So primary user not named Anakin or Vader.
Many people in the PT Order use Soresu. I seriously doubt if anybody is near as skilled with it as Kenobi is by ROTS.
It all depends on the fighters, not so much there form.
Everything you just said right there, without exception, was wrong.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Like I said Vapaad certainly gives Mace a power boost, as well as fast, lethal and unpredictable movements. But I wuldnt count Djem So out in a sword fight automatically. Djem So also has powerful strikes, and Anakin has enough raw power of his own. And technique wise Djem So is one of only 2 forms designed specifically for Saber Dueling.Neway I was actually talking about the "Superconducting Loop" whether that would work on Light Side Anakin.
Its the "Loop" that put him on par with Sidious, and allowed him to defeat him. I actually dnt see the "Loop" coming into play against LS Anakin, as he wasnt drawing ALL his power from the Dark Side.
He was still a Jedi and a good guy, so he must have still been drawing a considerable amount of power from the Light. If you take the "Half Sith already" thing literally then Maybe he was drawing about half his power from the dark side.
No.
Read ROTS
Read Shatterpoint
How about a quote for this?
Don't have ROTS with me, but I'm 99% sure that when Mace is fighting Sidious, the novel says something along the lines of "Vaapad, the seventh and deadliest form of lightsaber combat, is named after ..."
Originally posted by Darth Martin
Unfortunately, I'm quickly finding that out.What's even more disturbing is the debator(or lack of) won't say how it's [B]wrong
. [/B]
I assume by debator you mean me. It's quite simple really, and has been explained to you several times. Everything is wrong. And I never just throw around words. I'm responsible with my keyboard. When I say everything, I really mean everything. Every word is false, every assumption is wrong and every comma is improperly placed.
Originally posted by Shoes
I assume by debator you mean me. It's quite simple really, and has been explained to you several times. [b]Everything is wrong. And I never just throw around words. I'm responsible with my keyboard. When I say everything, I really mean everything. Every word is false, every assumption is wrong and every comma is improperly placed. [/B]
LOL. How much do you want to bet?
Mace Windu would beat Anakin, the latter might put up a fight, but Windu wins.