Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Dooku was winning against Light Anakin, and he whooped Obi-Wan. Then Dooku lost to Zone Anakin. Obi-Wan lost to Vader.See the differences? Either way Dooku>>>Obi-Wan.
Obi-wan won, last time I checked.
They don't seem to be entirely different tiers at the least.
And I don't think this "Zone" Anakin is any stronger than Vader.
Originally posted by Q99
Obi-wan won, last time I checked.They don't seem to be entirely different tiers at the least.
And I don't think this "Zone" Anakin is any stronger than Vader.
"Zone" Anakin will always be stronger than Vader because he's not fully DS (against Mace this is the deciding factor) and he's not overconfident (Mustafar).
Originally posted by mattatom
"Zone" Anakin will always be stronger than Vader because he's not fully DS (against Mace this is the deciding factor) and he's not overconfident (Mustafar).
He's also not drawing on as much darkside. Also... is he really not fully darkside/not overconfident? We're talking, pretty much, one fight, during which he did brag about his power.
He might be better against Mace if he's not drawing on as much, but why is he stronger?
And that aside, what is there to put Dooku on Mace's level at all?
Originally posted by Q99ABC logic.
Lower?Dooku lost to Anakin, Obi-Wan beat Anakin...
In any case, not the same tier as Mace.
IMO Overall:
Tyranus>Anakin>/=Kenobi
When you have a fight go 7/10. You lose 3 times. ROTS displayed one of those losses for Tyranus.
He's more skilled with a blade and much more refined in the force.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
ABC logic.
I'm not saying that Obi-Wan is stronger than Dooku because of that or anything. What I am saying is they're close enough for ABC of different styles to matter- i.e. not in the same tier as Palpatine and Yoda.
Anakin, Dooku, and Obi-Wan have their advantages and disadvantages compared to each other, as I see it, and Palpatine or Yoda or Mace would beat any of them.
IMO Overall:Tyranus>Anakin>/=Kenobi
When you have a fight go 7/10. You lose 3 times. ROTS displayed one of those losses for Tyranus.
He's more skilled with a blade and much more refined in the force.
Why Tyranus over Anakin at all, though? I don't know of anything to put him over Anakin, or to think he'd win the majority.
He may be refined, but Anakin had more power he could handle by RotS. It wasn't a lucky shot or anything, he was just overpowered.
I mean, am I missing some showings of his? I can't think of what'd put him on a level with Mace.
Originally posted by Q99
Obi-wan won, last time I checked.
Did Obiwan outduel Anakin?? No. In fact Obiwan was tiring, whilst Anakin was getting stronger. If not for Anakin's clumsiness theres no way Obiwan was gna win.
Originally posted by Q99
They don't seem to be entirely different tiers at the least.
They(Obiwan and Anakin) dnt "seem" like they are in entirely different tiers because they know each others moves inside out, so can not get past each other's defences.
Originally posted by Q99
And I don't think this "Zone" Anakin is any stronger than Vader.
"Zone" Anakin was as strong as DS Anakin, but was much less conflicted, less arrogant, less clumsy, and overall had much more control.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Did Obiwan outduel Anakin?? No. In fact Obiwan was tiring, whilst Anakin was getting stronger. If not for Anakin's clumsiness theres no way Obiwan was gna win.
ROTS novelization begs to differ. Kenobi controlled the duel. (I've given the quotes on this duel 1/2 dozen times, if you care enough, look it up yourself, or search for it any number of threads here.)
They(Obiwan and Anakin) dnt "seem" like they are in entirely different tiers because they know each others moves inside out, so can not get past each other's defences.
This is exactly true.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi beat someone he trained(and that while Anakin was deeply conflicted emotionally). Doesnt make him a more powerful jedi or a more skilled warrior.
You are just all full of straw-men today, aren't you? What does this have to do with my point that Kenobi won? I didn't imply any of the things you have listed. Someone listed earlier that Anakin won, i countered with the obvious truth. What is YOUR post based on?
Originally posted by truejedi
ROTS novelization begs to differ. Kenobi controlled the duel.
he controlled the duel in that he was constantly on the defensive and backpedaling until a situation that favored him would arise; thats the nature of soresu in itself though.
he wasnt controlling the fight in the sense that he could have ended whenever he wanted, though. his bladework isnt superior to anakins
Originally posted by truejedi
You are just all full of straw-men today, aren't you? What does this have to do with my point that Kenobi won? I didn't imply any of the things you have listed. Someone listed earlier that Anakin won, i countered with the obvious truth. What is YOUR post based on?
Well you seemed like you were implying that because Kenobi won he is better, or in the same league as Anakin. If thats not what you meant, then ignore what I said.
Originally posted by truejedi
ROTS novelization begs to differ. Kenobi controlled the duel. (I've given the quotes on this duel 1/2 dozen times, if you care enough, look it up yourself, or search for it any number of threads here.)
Iv got the novel. And according to the novel they were fighting like "two halves of the same warrior" because they knew each other's moves so well.
So when fighting each other they are quite equally matched. However that doesnt mean they ARE equally powerful or skilled Jedi. Thats my point.
Oh and the Movie showed Kenobi Panting like mad towards the end of the fight, so if Kenobi wasnt able to outsmart Anakin, then yeah he would have lost, due to Anakin simply having much better stamina due to his seemingly limitless supply of Force Reserves.
Originally posted by ares834
No... Mace is not on Yoda/Sidious level. Mace and Dooku were stated to be equal swordsmen in Y: DR... And Dooku is beyond Kenobi.
Y: DR?
It's just I've never seen Dooku do anything to put him in Mace's league. Mace was a younger, stronger duelist who also looked like he was better with the force to me.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
he controlled the duel in that he was constantly on the defensive and backpedaling until a situation that favored him would arise; thats the nature of soresu in itself though.he wasnt controlling the fight in the sense that he could have ended whenever he wanted, though. his bladework isnt superior to anakins
But that's how he always fights- that's how he beat Grievous too, stay on the defensive until there's an opening. It took a lot longer with Anakin but it went exactly as planned.
Obi-Wan is the defensive specialist of the duelists in the order. Anakin, a much more offensive type, couldn't get though.
Originally posted by ares834In the novelization, once Mace fully gave himself over to Vapaad, the fight between he and Sidious became "effortless" [for him.]
No... Mace is not on Yoda/Sidious level. Mace and Dooku were stated to be equal swordsmen in Y: DR... And Dooku is beyond Kenobi.
Meh, I don't know what the general consensus is, but what I took from the novel is that Mace /w/ full Vapaad-immersion = Sidious. Mace /w/ full Vapaad-immersion, AND Shatterpoint > Sidious.