Mace v Anakin

Originally posted by Q99

Y: DR?

It's just I've never seen Dooku do anything to put him in Mace's league. Mace was a younger, stronger duelist who also looked like he was better with the force to me.

Really? Youve seen nothing from Dooku puting him in Mace's league?? How about putting up a decent fight against Yoda?? In the force and in sabers.

Or how about disposing of Obiwan with a simple flick off his wrist while simultaneously kicking lightsaide anakin on to his ass. That was no where near Mace's league in fighting skills or in the Force??

Originally posted by Q99
But that's how he always fights- that's how he beat Grievous too, stay on the defensive until there's an opening. It took a lot longer with Anakin but it went exactly as planned.
Obi-Wan is the defensive specialist of the duelists in the order. Anakin, a much more offensive type, couldn't get though.

He didnt outduel Anakin. He outsmarted him. And that was an Anakin who wasnt exactly in his best mental state. As far as the duel was going, Anakin could have carried on fighting all day, but Obiwan was getting tired.

Originally posted by Galan007
In the novelization, once Mace fully gave himself over to Vapaad, the fight between he and Sidious became "effortless" [for him.]

Meh, I don't know what the general consensus is, but what I took from the novel is that Mace /w/ full Vapaad-immersion = Sidious. Mace /w/ full Vapaad-immersion, AND Shatterpoint > Sidious.

Actually they were equal when Mace was immersed in Vapaad. But Mace won based on experience, not shatterpoint. Shatterpoint's no guarantee of victory in a saber fight. Never was.

And Vappad created a superconducting loop between Mace and Sidious, allowing Mace to match Sidious in speed and power. So Mace wuldnt be that fast or powerful while fighting anyone else.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually they were equal when Mace was immersed in Vapaad. But Mace won based on experience, not shatterpoint. Shatterpoint's no guarantee of victory in a saber fight. Never was.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Vappad created a superconducting loop between Mace and Sidious, allowing Mace to match Sidious in speed and power. So Mace wuldnt be that fast or powerful while fighting anyone else.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really? Youve seen nothing from Dooku puting him in Mace's league?? How about putting up a decent fight against Yoda?? In the force and in sabers.

He... really struck me as just holding off Yoda until he could escape, but standing no real chance, Yoda was not pushed very hard. Compare Mace and Palpy's fight.

So no, I don't see how that's in the same league at all.

I don't think there's a single fight he's been in that Mace couldn't have done a noticeably better in.

Yeah, Dooku fought two battles against Yoda that went badly for him. This does not put him on Yoda's level.

However, Mace beat sidious with sabers, so that DOES put him on Sidious's level. Since Yoda and Sidious are often presumed to be more or less equals as of ROTS, then it would put Mace above Dooku.

Originally posted by Q99
He... really struck me as just holding off Yoda until he could escape, but standing no real chance, Yoda was not pushed very hard.

Yeah I admit he had no chance of defeating Yoda, and he was just holding him off until he could escape, but that in itself is a huge accomplishment. Yoda IS the "MOST Devastatingly Powerful Foe the Darkness has Ever faced" (ROTS novel).

The Vast Majority of Jedis/Dark Jedis cant even last 1 second against Yoda, e.g. Ventress who was just completely paralyzed by Yoda. And Yoda gave as good as he got against the Emporer who can take out some of the best Jedis in a Saber fight in literally a second.

So you think Mace would fair much better than Dooku did against Yoda?? I dnt see that happening.

Originally posted by Q99
Compare Mace and Palpy's fight

Big difference is Vapaad's superconducting loop, which helped Mace to equal Sidious in Speed and Power. He wnt be THAT Fast or THAT Powerful while fighting Anakin or Dooku, or anyone else for that matter.

Before being fully submerged into Vapaad Sidious had Mace backing off, quite fast, and had him fully on the defence.
Dooku held Yoda off till he could escape, whilst Mace held Sidious off till he could fully submerge into Vapaad. So yeah I do see them in the same league. Now im not saying Dooku would beat Mace in a fight. Because theres a strong possibility that Vapaad's superconducting loop would cause Dooku serious problems being a DarkSider himself.

However in terms of Saber skills, Power and Mastery of the Force... Yes I definetely do see Dooku in Mace's league.
Iv never seen Mace own the likes of Ventress, Bulq, Vos or Obiwan, or anyone similarly powerful with the Force like Dooku has on many many occasions.

Originally posted by Galan007
Granted, but it does allow for weakness exploitation. And after all, Mace did angle the entire battle so that it would eventually end up on the window ledge. Doing so made Sidious have to use his powers to maintain sturdy footing, rather than use them offensively against Mace (which could be viewed as Shatterpoint.)

Yeah he did do that. But it seemed to be experience, not shatterpoint. Sidious's shatterpoint was Anakin. He completely trusted Anakin, so if Anakin chose Mace's side over Sidious's then Sidious would be dead. Thats a major weakness and interestingly enough it was that weakness that did lead to his death.

Originally posted by Galan007
If Mace could use Vapaad to feed on Sidious' fear/hesitation, he could certainly use it to feed on Anakin's fear/hesitation (which is abundant.)

Im not sure if Vapaad's loop would work on Pre-Sith Anakin. But im staying out of the Mace vs. Anakin debate after the last thread on it. Im just commenting on why Dooku shuldnt be discounted as being in Mace's league just because Dooku culdnt defeat Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah he did do that. But it seemed to be experience, not shatterpoint. Sidious's shatterpoint was Anakin. He completely trusted Anakin, so if Anakin chose Mace's side over Sidious's then Sidious would be dead. Thats a major weakness and interestingly enough it was that weakness that did lead to his death.

Im not sure if Vapaad's loop would work on Pre-Sith Anakin. But im staying out of the Mace vs. Anakin debate after the last thread on it. Im just commenting on why Dooku shuldnt be discounted as being in Mace's league just because Dooku culdnt defeat Sidious.

Vaapad isn't fueled solely on the basis of the opposition's anger/hatred/rage. Remember that Mace's own inner darkness provides a hell of a boost as well. Also, keep in mind that Mace Grievous mimicked the movements of Vaapad after dueling Mace (hence; Mace used Vaapad against a non force user). Vaapad will be a factor against any version of Anakin, be it LS, DS, or t3h zoNE Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah he did do that. But it seemed to be experience, not shatterpoint. Sidious's shatterpoint was Anakin. He completely trusted Anakin, so if Anakin chose Mace's side over Sidious's then Sidious would be dead. Thats a major weakness and interestingly enough it was that weakness that did lead to his death.

"[Mace] angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Im just commenting on why Dooku shuldnt be discounted as being in Mace's league just because Dooku culdnt defeat Sidious.

Originally posted by truejedi
However, Mace beat sidious with sabers, so that DOES put him on Sidious's level. Since Yoda and Sidious are often presumed to be more or less equals as of ROTS, then it would put Mace above Dooku.

I personally feel that Mace is the superior swordsman by a fair margin, but that's just me.

Originally posted by ares834
Then your wrong as Y: DR specifically says the were equals. This does not mean Mace can't beat Dooku, he would for sure, but that would be due to the benefits of Vaapad.

So confused.

Vapaad is Mace's style. Saying he would beat Dooku with Vapaad is exactly the same as saying he is better than Dooku. Its like saying that Anakin is better than Kenobi if Kenobi can't use Soresu.

Originally posted by Galan007
If you're admitting that Mace would beat Dooku, then how can you also be of the opinion that they are equals?

So confused.

And here is the thing Mace and Dooku are equal in skill, yet Mace Windu has an advantage due to his form being "Super effective" (lol Pokemanz) against Dooku. We see examples like this in real life, Cobra's for example are far more dangerous and deadly than a mongoose, yet a mongoose can kill a Cobra as it is well suited to klling it. This is similar to Dooku and Mace. Both are equals, yet Mace can beat Dooku because his form allows him to channel Dooku's darkness as well as his, this it is well suited for battling Dooku.

Originally posted by truejedi
Vapaad is Mace's style. Saying he would beat Dooku with Vapaad is exactly the same as saying he is better than Dooku. Its like saying that Anakin is better than Kenobi if Kenobi can't use Soresu.

Mace > Anakin. That should be as clear as day. Even "In the Zone" Anakin would still lose imo

Originally posted by ares834
And here is the thing Mace and Dooku are equal in skill, yet Mace Windu has an advantage due to his form being "Super effective" (lol Pokemanz) against Dooku. We see examples like this in real life, Cobra's for example are far more dangerous and deadly than a mongoose, yet a mongoose can kill a Cobra as it is well suited to klling it. This is similar to Dooku and Mace. Both are equals, yet Mace can beat Dooku because his form allows him to channel Dooku's darkness as well as his, this it is well suited for battling Dooku.

Originally posted by Galan007
If one of them is superior to the other in battle, then they are not equals. Simple.

Originally posted by ares834
🙄 If you want to go with that than Mace can't beat Dooku... Its a tie.

You're a hard guy to follow.

If Mace > Sidious with Sabers, he is by all accounts also going to be able to handle Dooku, who could only marvel at the power of the Sith Lord in Dark Rendevous.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How about putting up a decent fight against Yoda?? In the force

Yoda clearly doesn't return fire in that instacne, it's quite obvious he was gauging Dookus power level, and let go the appropriate power to fizzle away Dookus - quite frankly - lame attemp at battling Yoda.

movie verse ofcourse.

I didn't see Dooku put up a decent fight against Yoda in the force, Yoda was casually dismissing everything Dooku threw at him.