Originally posted by Master Han
If you compare the force and work needed to do both...not really, no.A Kamehameha looks more overpowered, because it's flashier. But it's actually a less impressive feat.
Nah, the kind of force needed to completely shatter a rock wall and throw rubble a good 30 feet through the air:
Is more than is needed to lift an X Wing very slowly.
Its also way, waaaaaay greater in terms of combat applications, wtf are you smoking?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, the kind of force needed to completely shatter a rock wall and throw rubble a good 30 feet through the air:Is more than is needed to lift an X Wing very slowly.
On average, is it now?
When you consider the fact that Satele Shan implicitly absorbs energy from Malgus's lightsaber, takes several seconds to charge her attack, and then still requires several charge-ups and hand motions to deliver the coup de grace, whereas a near-death Yoda expects Skywalker to do it with barely a year of training...
The X wing has to weight at least 15 or so tons just by its size, ignoring the possibility that durasteel is heavier than conventional metals. Then you have to take into account its reactor, either fusion or hypermatter depending on the source, which, at full power, can output multiple times the energy released in Hiroshima every second (examine its circumnavigation of Yavin Prime in a matter of minutes)...
I haven't done the math, but you can see that it's not exactly a case of one being "roflamo overpowered" and the other being subtle and indicative of classic OT brilliance.
Its also way, waaaaaay greater in terms of combat applications, wtf are you smoking? [/B]
Um, it's not just lifting X wings out of swamps to dazzle enemy troopers. You can apply the needed telekinetic force to, say, crush someone's windpipe, or multiple at once.
Originally posted by Master Han
On average, is it now?When you consider the fact that Satele Shan implicitly absorbs energy from Malgus's lightsaber, takes several seconds to charge her attack, and then still requires several charge-ups and hand motions to deliver the coup de grace, whereas a near-death Yoda expects Skywalker to do it with barely a year of training...
The X wing has to weight at least 15 or so tons just by its size, ignoring the possibility that durasteel is heavier than conventional metals. Then you have to take into account its reactor, either fusion or hypermatter depending on the source, which, at full power, can output multiple times the energy released in Hiroshima every second (examine its circumnavigation of Yavin Prime in a matter of minutes)...
I haven't done the math, but you can see that it's not exactly a case of one being "roflamo overpowered" and the other being subtle and indicative of classic OT brilliance.
I know she does. I'm talking about the actual attack, not the circumstances around it. That she has to motion and power up is irrelevant given that while she's doing that she's also pushing Malgus back with the Force.
Yes, I know. Shattering a rock wall like that would still require greater physical force than lifting a 15 ton ship. And what the hell are you mentioning the reactor for? :?
Yeah it is.
Originally posted by Master Han
Um, it's not just lifting X wings out of swamps to dazzle enemy troopers. You can apply the needed telekinetic force to, say, crush someone's windpipe, or multiple at once.
Unless you have evidence or feats proving that you can focus your TK like that and use it in that manner, no you can't. Force users whould be capable of tearing their opponents in half with the forces they're throwing around, yet they don't do so.
Besides which obviously a feat of Satale actually pwning someone with a huge shockwave of energy is a lot more impressive in terms of combat applications than Yoda lifting a ship slowly out of the swamp. Yoda needed to really concentrate to do that and required a lot of time to perform that feat.
His stubbornness. Or at least that was a trait of his, maybe not anymore. But his was tempered by an ability to infer text-based tone and intention, so it was never a frustrating thing. Unlike this new guy, he never had the uncanny knack of misconstruing things to such SMHing degrees.
I miss that Gideon. I hope he'll come back to TV soon.
I didn't analyze the work needed to push the star destroyers out of the star system because I thought you were exclusively referring to literal power when you said "overpowered". I did so because "overpowered" usually is defined by having an excess of capability to do something, and since telekinesis is quantified by how well you can accelerate objects...well, force seemed to be a nice starting point. And it has nothing to do with the attack's being magic or not; magic is still quantified by its ability to affect things, just like any mode of influence.
Furthermore, when we come to your example of Sion's hatred-regeneration, I'd point out that Obi Wan's blue space ghost ability from the OT is more overpowered in every conceivable criteria.
[list]
[*]it has greater tactical applications
[*]it can't be defeated with dun moch
[*]it can't be neutralized via incapacitation...or high explosives
[*]it can literally appear anywhere in the galaxy
[*]it doesn't require undying hatred
[/list]
----oh, and also, it's significantly cheesier to boot, with the dated visual effects and all. But that doesn't matter, because it's from the Original Trilogy, so you apply wholly separate standards to it.
Do you actually have any criteria or logical basis to label half of your examples as overpowered beyond "it just superficially appears so on face value"?
It all comes down to your wanting the Force to be more subtle from an aesthetics standpoint, which has nothing to do with anything being "overpowered".
Furthermore, if you think that the Force Kamehameha is too flashy for your own taste, it must have killed you when Palpatine revealed his Force lightning in RotJ - oh, wait, that's from the original trilogy, so it's just fine, right? Just like how blue space ghosts that can go anywhere aren't "overpowered", but space zombies that you can presumably kill easily with sufficient explosives are.
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Originally posted by Nephthys
I know she does. I'm talking about the actual attack, not the circumstances around it. That she has to motion and power up is irrelevant given that while she's doing that she's also pushing Malgus back with the Force.
But we're discussing whether or not the attack is overpowered, and even if we assume for a moment that the blast is more energetic, that she has to charge it for several seconds and absorb a lightsaber's energy really dampens its combative applications, doesn't it?
I concede that I had not watched the entire video, and did not notice the massive collateral damage after Shan completes her hand-motions, but my primary contention still stands.
Yes, I know. Shattering a rock wall like that would still require greater physical force than lifting a 15 ton ship. And what the hell are you mentioning the reactor for? :?Yeah it is.
The reactor would add a significant amount of mass to the ship, given that it uses a ridiculous amount of energy.
Unless you have evidence or feats proving that you can focus your TK like that and use it in that manner, no you can't. Force users whould be capable of tearing their opponents in half with the forces they're throwing around, yet they don't do so.
Um, Vader and Dooku have both ripped bolted machinery, applying massive amounts of force to areas smaller than the human figure.
In combat, this is certainly more useful, especially if you can do it through a camera, than a Kamehameha that really is redundant when you have explosives.
Besides which obviously a feat of Satale actually pwning someone with a huge shockwave of energy is a lot more impressive in terms of combat applications than Yoda lifting a ship slowly out of the swamp. Yoda needed to really concentrate to do that and required a lot of time to perform that feat.
Yoda was near death. In RotS, he would have been able to lift it casually. But again, 15 tons (conservatively) applied to an enemy commander's neck through a hologram conference is vastly more potentially "overpowered" than a slow charging Kamehameha.
Wow, you must be no fun at parties. An egotistical ass who takes everything literally, has limited flexibility when it comes to language, has no appreciation of the use of artistic license, doesn't care about overuse of plot devices, and who apparently only watched Dragonball and never got in to Z. What an unlikeable, combative, narrow-minded pedant you are.
So that said; My Give up. My Give up.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wow, you must be no fun at parties. An egotistical ass who takes everything literally, has limited flexibility when it comes to language, has no appreciation of the use of artistic license, doesn't care about overuse of plot devices, and who apparently only watched Dragonball and never got in to Z. What an unlikeable, combative, narrow-minded pedant you are.So that said; My Give up. My Give up.
You know, I was going to type up a detailed response to your reply, but I realized that you clearly have no desire or ability to actually debate arguments and contentions using any semblance of logic or evidence. You know, like this.
The fact is that you've continuously flip-flopped and backtracked on your positions, covering up factual errors ("laws of motion don't exist in Star Wars"😉 and suddenly shifting avenues of analysis (you were initially analyzing the quote just as literally as I was). You don't understand the difference between "overpowered" and "thematically inconsistent", employ double standards to dismiss obvious examples in the OT, etc.
And you think dismissing long replies and arguments with one liners makes you intelligent?
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IDK wtf is up with you anyway, since I maintained an entirely cordial and apologetic attitude after your "I hate cardinal numbers" attack, and yet you continued to display a ridiculously haughty and hostile tone.
Originally posted by Master HanLol this just sums up your mentality perfectly.
What kind of dumbass response is this? We're in a ****ing discussion forum, not a party.
But nah, man. I'm done. I can't compete with someone like you. Don't have the energy or the patience for it. There was a guy on this forum a few years back with an ironic name that you remind me of (I called him Rudy). An older, more aggressive version of him. He wore me out just like you have. I know better than to keep arguing ad nauseam with someone like Rudy 2.0.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Lol this just sums up your mentality perfectly.<snip>
Whether I'm "aggressive" or even "unlikeable" has no relevance to the validity of my arguments. To suggest otherwise would be to employ an "ad hominem".
Originally posted by Nephthys
The answer is Tulak Hord btw.
No, it's my level 50 Revan.
Originally posted by Nephthys
My level 55 Hero of Tython would **** your Revan uuuuuup!
Revan is the heart of the Force. Everybody since the Ancient Egyptians has known that the heart controls emotions, so Revan controls the Force's destiny. Your Hero is a Jedi. Jedi serve the Force. Ergo, per transitive deduce ad absurdum, your hero serves Revan. Everybody serves Revan (except the Exile).
So, are you convinced that Hord is Yoda or even Windu level yet?
Are you kidding me? Yoda can lift five muntuur stones. Hord is a pansy in comparison.
Originally posted by Master Han
Perhaps I'm being a hypocrite for calling you out on this, but it's quite arbitrary to rank Abeloth above the son and the daughter.
The Son's source of strength is Font of Power.
The Daughter's source of strength is Pool of Knowledge.
NOTE: The Son and The Daughter are equally strong.
Abeloth's source of strength is both aforementioned special kind of nexuses.
Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, no. Luke Skywalker and Yoda should be here.
Originally posted by Master Han
Why is Luke two tiers below Sidious/Vitiate?
Originally posted by Master Han
Why is Luke three tiers below an entity whose ass he routinely kicks?
Originally posted by Master Han
Plagueis should move up. Yoda should be in the same tier as Palpatine and Luke, or possibly one lesser.
I will need to check Plagueis's novel in this regard to learn more about his relative standing.
Originally posted by Master Han
Aside from getting his ass kicked by holograms of ancient sith lords (one of which was Bane), what has Krayt done to put him on Bane's level?
Krayt helped Luke defeat the main avatar of Abeloth, which is very impressive accomplishment since he didn't die in that encounter. He have some other impressive showings as well; he defeated Wyyrlok in single combat, who in turn, defeated Andeddu in single combat. Krayt got ample time to hone his skills in the dark side and he became the top dog among the Sith eventually, at least in his era.
Bane could be stronger then Krayt but not by a big margin, IMO.
In a much more comprehensive list, I might be able to rank characters more realistically then I have done currently.
Originally posted by Master Han
In terms of raw Force power, I'd put Vader above Krayt and possibly Bane. He's 80% of OT Palpatine, and has ridiculous feats in TFU.
Fair enough?
Originally posted by Master Han
Also, you're forgetting Satele Shan, Malgus and Caedus, all of whom are possibly at or above Bane's level.
Originally posted by Master Han
That's...not a very fair comparison to Jedi such as Skywalker that wouldn't unleash such levels of raw power even if he wanted to.
Originally posted by Master Han
Also, the Sith Emperor drains Nathema using a rituals involving hundreds of sith lords - Nihilus's feat is arguably more impressive, as he appears to be able to drain planets without any prep time.
Originally posted by Master Han
But in terms of raw power, Wankatine is massively above them both, and even above what we've seen from Abeloth (although she is probably capable of far worse), with his "destroy a NR fleet" Force storms.
Originally posted by Master Han
It's suggested that UnuThul is actually more powerful than Luke, but that Skywalker was simply the more skilled combatant.
Originally posted by Master Han
Satele and Revan, possibly. Malgus is implied to be less powerful in the Force than Shan.
Originally posted by Master Han
"very impressive feats" doesn't mean much in the way of qualifying him. His almost-dies-to-six-mandalorians sort of dropped him down in my book.
Originally posted by Master Han
Are you kidding me? Yoda can lift five muntuur stones. Hord is a pansy in comparison.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Abeloth is stronger then both The Son and The Daughter individually; Abeloth probably matches their combined might.
Ah, I forgot.
Vitiate and Sidious acquired relatively much superior Force abilities.
Have they really?
Luke Skywalker has a rather impressive set of feats and accolades that may put him above them both.
[list]
[*]He absorbs an AT-AT's laser cannons, and knocks it down with the Force
[*]He rebuilds and destroys Vader's fortress
[*]He manipulates dorvin basals
[*]He has his last-hundred-pages TUF pwnage
[*]He renders himself literally immovable, to even a supermassive black hole
[*]He Force pins a sith lord more powerful than Darth Vader to a chair like a joke
[*]With a glance, he uses hurls a shuttle at a platoon of soldiers
[*]He fools Darth Caedus (more powerful than Darth Vader), his fleet's crew, and his ships' sensors into detecting an imaginary fleet
[*]He amps Jaina and casts a holographic projection of himself onto the Anakin Solo that drives Caedus insane. He also makes Jaina look like Luke. This all fools Caedus, a himself master of illusions.
[*]He develops a frightening level of foresight that allows him to precisely predict the outcome of a mission before it happens, and jams and manipulates Caedus's own.
[*]He knows shatterpoint, fold space and a variety of other esoteric abilities, most of which he literally learns in a day, or discovers himself
[*]Luceno states that he intentionally described Skywalker's fighting style in TUF to resemble vaapad
[*]He matches RotJ Vader in sabers in a few years of informal training
[*]Caedus considers him "perhaps the greatest swordsman there ever was"
[*]He disarms Valin Horn with a single strike
[*]He removes an 800 meter spaceship from sight
[*]He creates a lifelike copy of the Falcon to fool enemy ships
[*]He uses presumably some variation of sever Force to free Calllista's soul from Abeloth
[*]I'm probably missing something.
[/list]