Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah this whole "desperate" thing is making Shoes look a little... synonym? Mace beheaded Jango, Jango failed to kill Mace. Mace>>Jango.
But Jango COULD have killed Mace. Shoes is saying that he had a big chance to. I'm not sure if I agree with that, but Jango did have at least a plausible chance of winning, hence the "desperately" phrase.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
[b]A chance of hitting him. A fishbone that Mace chokes has a chance of killing him. One instance of desperation does not equate to a defined level of skill in a Mace-to-Jango ratio. [/B]
According to Mace, it was more than one instance of desperation, although Mace would still win an overwhelming majority.
You know what I meant.
"More than once the Jedi had to parry desperately to turn a bolt aside. He kept up his offensive flurry, though, keeping Jango on the defensive with sudden stabs and slashing cuts. One misstep... And then it happened, all of a sudden."
Parrying desperately a few times, and still keeping Jango on the defensive. Jango died. If Jango was as spectacular as Shoes is making him out to be, he wouldn't have been on the defensive so long and then f*ck up. Mace>>Jango.
A-HAAA! That entire quote is rendered non-canon becuase it describes events that don't happen in the movie. Mace does not, 'keep up his offensive flurry, though, keeping Jango on the defensive with sudden stabs and slashing cuts', he makes two strikes exactly: one to cut off his hand and one to cut off his head. No sudden stabs at all. You get NOTHING! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY SIR!
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....At least I think, I could be wrong and its a terrible shame.
On Mara's side of things: For her Jedi training, she went to Kyle Katarn. At one point, he fell to the darkside and she stalemated him.
Also, in her duel that killed her, she outfought Jacen to the point she had a shot at killing him and he only reversed it by using an illusion of her son to make him hesitate. Jacen's an extremely powerful and skilled duelist, so that speaks very highly of Mara's skills as well.
Okay, I will attempt to wrap this up in a nice little package, with a bow on it. I believe I've made a decent case for Jango. Give me a little credit. Since we have different opinions on what the word desperately implies, I submit, but I will make one last attempt to sway you.
Originally posted by Q99
I don't think you quite get "standards of evidence."1, 2, 3, 4- It's call human capacity to recognize facial expression, and of course it's canon, it's in the movies. It'd change things because if someone is calm then they aren't desperate and your argument relied on him being desperate, remember?
5, 6- I'm saying they were normal blocks. He puts his saber in the way and the blast deflects with no excessive effort shown, 6 times in a row, in the same way he does whenever he blocks a droid's blaster. Presumably he cut it closer with Jango's, but the manner in which he did so looked normal.
This is wrong on so many levels, the first of which would be it's accuracy . The second would be it's relevance in the particular subject. You have failed to prove that it is relevant in the slightest, and you have also failed to define a desperate facial expression, not that it differs from any other face Jackson puts on. Using your barely comprehensible logic, facial expressions dictate the fight, right? Dooku smiled the whole way throughout his battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin, and he ended up dead. I didn't see the expression of a losing man on his face, but look at that.
Assuming you could properly respond to the points above, you would still have to prove a contradiction, if any such exists. The novel states that Windu parried desperately, not that he used a desperate expression. No contradiction, ergo no argument.
Can=/=Will.
Theoretically, anyone with a blaster or viroblade can kill Mara, but just won't. Jango on the other hand, stands a good chance against her.
No, far from it. I'm saying in the novel it didn't say "Mace almost died" like you were harping, it used the word desperate on some shots.The movies, if you'll recall, are also canon and higher canon at that.
You're confusing your interpretation of the events for canon.
Your fail begins when you attempt to create an argument based on your interpretation of the film. Then, your fail subsequently increases every time you asssume you are Lucas.
You cannot prove that his parries weren't desperate. There just isn't any canon to go by. No statement specifically states that Mace handled him with ease. No statement specifically states that his shots were easily blocked. The novel states the exact opposite, and you are trying to use films > novels to get around that which inconveniences you. You are no longer using the film when you say they weren't desperate. You are using your interpretation of the film, directly contradicted by a canon source. This is not the same as the novel contradicting the film.
Here is what we can actually gather from the film, not your interpretation:
Windu blocked Jango's shots.
Windu killed Jango.
We do not know how difficult it was for Windu to block Jango's shots, merely that he did. In regards to Jango's speed, the film is unreliable. The microsecond it would take for Jango to shoot and for Windu to parry would leave the audience in a state of confusion. There is no contradiction between the novel and the film about this particular statement, as they both seem to move at the same speed (or at least realatively near each other), both in the film and in the novel. This means that Fett can compete with force-enhanced speed, robbing Mara of her advantage.
Here is what we can gather from the novel:
Windu blocked Jango's shots with great difficulty.
Windu killed Jango.
Only now do we know exactly how much it cost him, and how much trouble he was in. Again, no contradiction between the novel and the film. He still blocked the shots. He still decapitated Fett.
Provide some evidence that Jango is near the level of Mace (which is what your entire argument is wrapped around), or quit and post something else. Its become "yes, no" and its pointless.
Three statements exist which put Jango at Mace's level, and by extension, over Mara's.
The first of which has been under fire since I ever brought it up:
The man was good, Mace had to admit. Very good, and more than once the
Jedi had to parry desperately to turn a bolt aside.
Mace acknowledges that Jango was very good. This automatically puts him near Mace, if not higher, so anyone arguing that there is not enough proof can **** off. It's right there. While it's open to interpretation, it certainly means something. Once again, Windu wouldn't parry desperately unless he had no other choice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's only possible to be desperate when there are no other options to turn to. No other techniques to preform. This means that Jango pushed Mace to the edge, but it wasn't enough. This is where I get 90% from.
The next is in the opening of Shatterpoint:
Jango Fett bristles with weapons. An instinctive killer: the deadliest man in the galaxy. Jango can kill me in less than a second. I know it. Even if I had never seen Kenobi's report from Kamino, I can feel the violence Jango radiates: in the Force, a pulsar of death.
While this quote doesn't necessarily imply that Jango is at Mace's level, I infer that Mace holds him in the highest of esteem.
The thrid and final quote also lies in the 1st chapter of Shatterpoint:
In my dreams, the purple flare of my blade sizzles the gray hairs of Dooku's beard, and in the critical milisecond it takes Jango Fett to aim and fire, I twitch that blade and take Dooku with me into death.
This is key. Jango is so fast, that Windu can't block it. Windu can't cut through Dooku and deflect the shot too. What's more impressive is, Jango is not even aware Windu is there. He must unholster his pistol, turn, aim at a target whose location is unknown, all before Windu can raise his blade once more. And he can. He will. Windu acknowledges this. Force speed is irrelevant at this point; he is simply not fast enough. The obolate sphere of purple fire, fading in and out of existance cannot contend with Fett's speed.
Consider what we've seen. Consider what would have happened if Jango knew Mace's location. If Jango was facing him. If Jango's pistol was out. Windu will have time, sure. He can activate his lightsaber, sure, but by no means would he be able to raise it in order to deflect Jango's shots. Consider that Jango had just fended off a reek, and it was between him and the Jedi Master. Windu had the element of surprise. Still, Mace had trouble deflecting his shots. Still, Mace found himself to be desperate. These are not displays of weakness on Windu's part, but of skill and precision by Fett.
Nothing contradicts any of this. The evidence is solid. See reason, or conjure an argument for Mara.
Okay, I will attempt to wrap this up in a nice little package, with a bow on it. I believe I've made a decent case for Jango. Give me a little credit. Since we have different opinions on what the word desperately implies, I submit, but I will make one last attempt to sway you.
I think you've made a case that relies on interpreting several words in very specific ways, some of which are fairly large leaps to make.
You perhaps have a decent case for "This is one possible way to view it," but push it way too far by trying to claim it's definitely the way it is.
and you have also failed to define a desperate facial expression,
If you're incapable of recognizing human facial expression that is your issue.
I don't need to define what English words mean; that's what a dictionary is for.
Just because a piece of evidence goes against your point, you shouldn't start asking people to define the most basic terms, you can look for yourself and make a judgement, preferably while stepping back from your argument and trying to look at it objectively.
Using your barely comprehensible logic, facial expressions dictate the fight, right? Dooku smiled the whole way throughout his battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin, and he ended up dead. I didn't see the expression of a losing man on his face, but look at that.
When he actually started losing his facial expression sure as heck changed. I do remember a look of dread when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him (prior to that he probably even though he'd live through it no matter what, being captured if lost!).
Your fail begins when you attempt to create an argument based on your interpretation of the film. Then, your fail subsequently increases every time you asssume you are Lucas.You cannot prove that his parries weren't desperate. There just isn't any canon to go by.
I can prove how they looked; we saw them, after all!
You also cannot prove 'a few desperate parries' = almost lost.
So really, just turn your argument around, you need to examine your own POV more.
Here is what we can gather from the novel:Windu blocked Jango's shots with great difficulty.
Windu killed Jango.
But not, it should be noted, necessarily a low probability! Or even necessarily all of 'em being difficult, just more than one.
You're expanding far beyond the text and treating it as solid fact, then asking me to disprove your assumption.
Only now do we know exactly how much it cost him, and how much trouble he was in. Again, no contradiction between the novel and the film. He still blocked the shots. He still decapitated Fett.
Ah, but you're the only one who takes a few desperate parries as "Jango could've won/really pushed Mace to the edge/anything like that."
It's also been pointed out those were desperate parries from an offensive stance, not a defensive one. He wasn't even going full-defense, which may have been part of why those parries were tricky.
Mace acknowledges that Jango was very good. This automatically puts him near Mace, if not higher, so anyone arguing that there is not enough proof can **** off. It's right there.
It does not.
Recognizing someone is very good is not the same as saying they're a near-equal. Luke can recognize a pilot is very good, while still being far better. Vader called Luke flat-out impressive, them beat the heck out of him.
Even if he acknowledged Jango as an equal in skill, which is a sensible interpretation, that does not mean Jango is an equal in combat ability either, because Mace, of course, has the Force to allow him a major edge against even very skilled foes.
Again I think you're going beyond the text here.
While this quote doesn't necessarily imply that Jango is at Mace's level, I infer that Mace holds him in the highest of esteem.
Agreed.
This is key. Jango is so fast, that Windu can't block it. Windu can't cut through Dooku and deflect the shot too. What's more impressive is, Jango is not even aware Windu is there. He must unholster his pistol, turn, aim at a target whose location is unknown, all before Windu can raise his blade once more. And he can. He will. Windu acknowledges this. Force speed is irrelevant at this point; he is simply not fast enough. The obolate sphere of purple fire, fading in and out of existance cannot contend with Fett's speed.
But that is a literal dream. A nightmare. It's his fears, rather than what would necessarily actually happen.
Luke had a dream where he offed Vader and then turned out to be Vader, after all.
Windu had the element of surprise. Still, Mace had trouble deflecting his shots. Still, Mace found himself to be desperate. These are not displays of weakness on Windu's part, but of skill and precision by Fett.
Ah, Windu did *not* have the element of surprise, he was disarmed shortly before and Jango lept for his saber.
They were fully aware of each other's presence for, oh, probably 30 seconds before the final showdown.
Nothing contradicts any of this. The evidence is solid.
Ah, I believe this is the primary flaw in your approach.
For arguments, we need, not just what is not flat-out contradicted, but what is most likely, and it is quite possible to construct an argument that while technically not contradicted, is less supported than other arguments, even significantly so.
Several elements paint your view as unlikely. Windu's visible manner in the actual battle. Jango's performance in other fights. And so on.
Going by likelyhood and surrounding evidence, Windu just strikes me as a stronger fighter who had a few close moments but won very solidly and would do so similarly reliably if they were put against each other repeatedly.
Originally posted by Q99
I think you've made a case that relies on interpreting several words in very specific ways, some of which are fairly large leaps to make.
Find a dictionary. I don't see any problem.
If you're incapable of recognizing human facial expression that is your issue.
My issue is that you insist that Mace didn't use a desperate facial expression. My issue is that you can't even define what it is you are trying to disprove. My issue is that you claim it's relevant. If Mace put on a smile during his fight with Palpatine, does that mean Mace is in complete control? Does that mean Mace was in no danger at all?
I don't need to define what English words mean; that's what a dictionary is for.
No. It's not relevant at all. You brought up "Mace didn't use a desperate expression so he wasn't desperate".
Just because a piece of evidence goes against your point, you shouldn't start asking people to define the most basic terms, you can look for yourself and make a judgement, preferably while stepping back from your argument and trying to look at it objectively.
1 - It's not evidence.
2 - You brought it up, so I assumed you knew what a desperate epxression looked like. Wait, what does that look like again? I mean, we saw it in his Sidious fight, but not in his Jango fight, correct?
Unbelievable. You are arguing that facial expressions dictate the fight?
I can prove how they looked; we saw them, after all!
No, you cannot. I thought they looked desperate. You didn't. Those are our respective interpretations. However, mine has the advantage of being backed up by canon. This is where you fail. Again, read all of what I said, instead of attempting to find flaws in canon.
You also cannot prove 'a few desperate parries' = almost lost.
Of course I can. Read:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's only possible to be desperate when there are no other options to turn to. No other techniques to preform. This means that Jango pushed Mace to the edge, but it wasn't enough.
So really, just turn your argument around, you need to examine your own POV more.
There is nothing wrong with it. My POV is supported by canon. My POV has relevant facts to reinforce it. Yours... what is your argument again? Jango didn't come close to beating Windu? After Windu acknowledges Jango's skill? After Windu desperately parries?
Please. Spare me the psudo-intellectual BS and actually disprove me with canon.
Or even necessarily all of 'em being difficult, just more than one.
It's stated clearly, that Mace had to parry desperately multiple times. This cannot be disproven.
Ah, but you're the only one who takes a few desperate parries as "Jango could've won/really pushed Mace to the edge/anything like that."
Yes. This is correct. There is no contradiction there. It is a logical statement to make. It is supported by canon.
which may have been part of why those parries were tricky.
Prove his stance played a factor. All I know is that if Jango nearly killed Mace, he certainly would kill Mara.
It does not.Recognizing someone is very good is not the same as saying they're a near-equal.
This is reaching. Coupled with the two Shatterpoint statements, I do believe he meant them. I do believe he holds Jango in high regard. I do believe he was nearly killed by Jango.
But that is a literal dream. A nightmare. It's his fears, rather than what would necessarily actually happen.
This is what he wrote down. In his journal. What he knows, as Shatterpoint takes place after AOTC. What he gathered from his fight with Jango. This was for some reason completely ignored at the start. You can dispute the meaning of desperate, whatever. But this, this is exactly what he knows about Jango. You haven't read Shatterpoint at all, have you?
Mace, of course, has the Force to allow him a major edge against even very skilled foes.
See above. Mace states Jango's natural speed rivals his forced-enhanced variety.
For arguments, we need, not just what is not flat-out contradicted, but what is most likely, and it is quite possible to construct an argument that while technically not contradicted, is less supported than other arguments, even significantly so.
No. If a canon statement is not contradicted, that makes any argument 100% solid. Futhermore, if an argument is not contradicted, how can it be unlikely, as nothing opposes it? This is your primary flaw. You attempt to place your interpretation of the film above the novel, passing it off as the film itself.
Going by likelyhood and surrounding evidence, Windu just strikes me as a stronger fighter who had a few close moments but won very solidly and would do so similarly reliably if they were put against each other repeatedly.
What? You have failed to read Shatterpoint.
Mace acknowledges that Jango was very good. This automatically puts him near Mace, if not higher
The ****? No. No it does not. 😐
In my dreams, the purple flare of my blade sizzles the gray hairs of Dooku's beard, and in the critical milisecond it takes Jango Fett to aim and fire, I twitch that blade and take Dooku with me into death.This is key. Jango is so fast, that Windu can't block it
Its a dream. So it can't be used for an actual feat of Jango's. 😬
And the desperate quote is non-canon btw. awepedo
There are many many instances in the literature of people almost dying to different unworthy foes. This doesn't mean that all of those foes could automatically beat anyone that character can beat. Luke almost died in his fight to Lumiya. Mace almost lost to child Boba. It doesn't mean that, for instance, that Lumiya > Caedus (who threatened to kill Lumiya repeatedly) or that Child Boba > Mara, or ROTS Kenobi.
It could be said Mace did better against Sidious than Yoda did (this is trying to use your same train of logic)
If Child Boba==Mace, and Mace>Yoda, then Child Boba >Yoda is the kind of argument you are using.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The ****? No. No it does not. 😐Its a dream. So it can't be used for an actual feat of Jango's. 😬
And the desperate quote is non-canon btw. awepedo
nvm I agree.
How is it non-canon?
And this is what Mace wrote down. In his journal. What he thinks of Jango after he fought him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I wuldnt go by the argument that "Mace nearly got killed by Jango, so Jango would definetely kill Mara".. Simply because by that same argument Jango should have definetely defeated AOTC Obi-Wan, who was obviously no match for Mace.But he didnt, not even with a bit of help from SlaveI.
Perhaps PIS. Perhaps he wasn't looking to kill him, merely escape Kamino, as Wookipedia tells us.
Originally posted by truejedi
There are many many instances in the literature of people almost dying to different unworthy foes. This doesn't mean that all of those foes could automatically beat anyone that character can beat. Luke almost died in his fight to Lumiya. Mace almost lost to child Boba. It doesn't mean that, for instance, that Lumiya > Caedus (who threatened to kill Lumiya repeatedly) or that Child Boba > Mara, or ROTS Kenobi.It could be said Mace did better against Sidious than Yoda did (this is trying to use your same train of logic)
If Child Boba==Mace, and Mace>Yoda, then Child Boba >Yoda is the kind of argument you are using.
If this is directed at me, you must provide evidence that Mara is capable of holding back Jango, instead of attempting to disprove that Mace barely could.