How is it non-canon?And this is what Mace wrote down. In his journal. What he thinks of Jango after he fought him.
Then he's obviously lying or bending the truth becuase he describes things that contradict the movie:
A-HAAA! That entire quote is rendered non-canon becuase it describes events that don't happen in the movie. Mace does not, 'keep up his offensive flurry, though, keeping Jango on the defensive with sudden stabs and slashing cuts', he makes two strikes exactly: one to cut off his hand and one to cut off his head. No sudden stabs at all. You get NOTHING! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY SIR!
And if something contradicts the movie, its null and void.
Originally posted by Shoes
F
Wow. I guess I thought too highly of you.My issue is that you insist that Mace didn't use a desperate facial expression.
My issue is that you can't even define what it is you are trying to disprove.
Yes, because you should know very well what a desperate facial expression is. You're nitpicking, not really arguing.
My issue is that you claim it's relevant. If Mace put on a smile during his fight with Palpatine, does that mean Mace is in complete control? Does that mean Mace was in no danger at all?
It would mean at that point he had reason to smile.
It could be because he got in a lucky strike, it could be because he though he had a chance, or whatever. But when fighting Palps in actuality, he looked strained and showed the effort he put into the fight.
Jango, his expression didn't flicker throughout.
No. It's not relevant at all. You brought up "Mace didn't use a desperate expression so he wasn't desperate".
Not desperate enough to show strain at the least. Not so desperate to break his mask of calmness.
Not as desperate as Palpatine clearly made him. We've seen what Mace looks like when pushed to the edge.
1 - It's not evidence.
Strait from the movie.
Your idea that human emotions aren't evidence is *weird*.
2 - You brought it up, so I assumed you knew what a desperate epxression looked like. Wait, what does that look like again? I mean, we saw it in his Sidious fight, but not in his Jango fight, correct?
Here you're arguing you don't know what expressions are again. Quite frankly I don't believe that you need it defined.
No, you cannot. I thought they looked desperate. You didn't. Those are our respective interpretations. However, mine has the advantage of being backed up by canon. This is where you fail. Again, read all of what I said, instead of attempting to find flaws in canon.
Mine has the advantage of being backed by higher canon, and has *also* been pointed out, doing a desperate block doesn't mean 'about to lose'.
There is nothing wrong with it. My POV is supported by canon. My POV has relevant facts to reinforce it. Yours... what is your argument again? Jango didn't come close to beating Windu? After Windu acknowledges Jango's skill? After Windu desperately parries?
After Windu beat him.
You seem to be under the misapprehension that because someone is skilled and requires two desperate parries from an offensive stance, that it still can't be a major advantage to Mace.
Very skilled mundanes are at a disadvantage against powerful force users, Jango being skilled does not mean he came close to beating Mace.
It's stated clearly, that Mace had to parry desperately multiple times. This cannot be disproven.
Yep, but you're taking big leaps to translate that to 'almost lose,' as has been pointed out by a couple people.
A couple kinda desperate blocks does not equal 'equal to Mace'.
There are other interpretations that fit with known information better than yours.
When you have multiple interpretations that all fit, you cannot say "THIS one is definitely true." Especially when you're taking a few blocks when he's on the offensive (and Mace's style is very offensive to begin with! Other people, even those of lower skill, may have better defense than him. Like Obi-Wan quite possibly) as signs of being pushed to the edge, which is never said.
We have Jango in several other fights, and Mace in other fights. Jango doesn't overwhelm Obi-Wan in the least, he doesn't last 10 seconds against Mace, and his performance in pretty much every other showing does not place him at Mace level. Thus, the rest of the evidence from everything else indicates they are not all that close and that even with Jango's skills Mace is still the stronger.
And just to get on Mara: She is an *extremely* skilled Jedi Master. She outdueled Jacen, who was, what, maybe the second most powerful force user in the galaxy at the time? Even with him using force TK?
She also was able to take on Kyle "Incredible Badass" Katarn on even terms.
So while she's not in Mace's force power range, in terms of sword skill they might be very close, at least she may be in Obi-Wan range.
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, because you should know very well what a desperate facial expression is. You're nitpicking, not really arguing.
Facial expressions (or lack thereof) mean nothing. They do no dictate the fight. They have no impact on either warrior's performance. A smiling Palpatine would have still lost to Windu. Go home.
Moreover, just in case that's still not clear enough for you to understand, I thought his facial expression looked desperate. That is my interpretation. You thought it didn't. Your interpretation. Guess whose interpretation of the film has actual canon to back it up?
Mine has the advantage of being backed by higher canon, and has *also* been pointed out, doing a desperate block doesn't mean 'about to lose'.
This is the last time I will explain this to you.
You interpret that his blocks weren't desperate.
I do.
The novel says his blocks were desperate. I have something to back up my interpreatation. You have no canon to back up your interpretation. You think Mace's blocks in the film weren't desperate, therefore, Mace's blocks weren't desperate, and that is final because you think it happened in the film.
You seem to be under the misapprehension that because someone is skilled and requires two desperate parries from an offensive stance, that it still can't be a major advantage to Mace.
1 - You have failed to prove his stance had anything to do with the blocks.
2 - Prove it was two. And not three. And not five.
3 - See below.
Very skilled mundanes are at a disadvantage against powerful force users, Jango being skilled does not mean he came close to beating Mace.
Welcome to my ignore list.
In Shatterpoint, he acknowledges his speed, which rivals his.
In Shatterpoint, he acknowledges his skill, which rivals his.
In AOTC, his speed and skills are put to the test. They push him to the edge, but not over it.
Want to know why?
Mace did find Jango's shatterpoint.
Put simply: when I look at you through the Force, I can see where you
break.
I looked at Jango Fett on the sand in the Geonosian arena. A perfect
combination of weapons, skills, and the will to use them: an interlocking
crystal of killer. The Force hinted a shatterpoint, and I left a headless
corpse on the sand. The deadliest man in the galaxy.
Now: just dead.
I don't know if he could have even won without it. I don't know if he would have lost either. We can't. But one thing is clear; the fight was much closer than TJ and you make it out to be. Mara doesn't have this advantage.
Yep, but you're taking big leaps to translate that to 'almost lose,' as has been pointed out by a couple people.A couple kinda desperate blocks does not equal 'equal to Mace'.
I acted on your advice and consulted a dictionary. Here is what it states:
a. 1 hopeless, lawless, regardless of danger or consequences. 2 affording little hope of success, recovery or escape; tried as a last resource.
Any interpretation of desperately does in fact imply Mace was pushed to his limits. No longer can this point be argued.
There are other interpretations that fit with known information better than yours.
1 - See above. It's no longer an interpretation.
2 - Even if it was, you can't prove that yours overrides the novel's.
We have Jango in several other fights, and Mace in other fights. Jango doesn't overwhelm Obi-Wan in the least, he doesn't last 10 seconds against Mace, and his performance in pretty much every other showing does not place him at Mace level. Thus, the rest of the evidence from everything else indicates they are not all that close and that even with Jango's skills Mace is still the stronger.
Wow.
You know what you just did?
You just disregarded two canon statements from Shatterpoint that put Jango on Mace's level. The only relevant thing you did do is question the meaning of desperate. I have posted exactly what desperate means above.
1 - If Mace didn't find Jango's shatterpoint, you can't prove he would have still won.
2 - If Mace gave Jango such a high evaluation, you can certainly assume he is on par with him.
3 - Desperately has been posted above. Even though my interpretation was correct, I don't even need desperately even more. Those two quotes from Shatterpoint are enough.
why does mace's in-universe POV overrule the movie itself
It doesn't overrule the movie in the slightest. Show me the contradiction.
Then he's obviously lying or bending the truth becuase he describes things that contradict the movie:
Nph, you seem to be an intelligent guy. Tell me, can you tell me exactly how any of this contradicts the movie? And why would he lie about a dead opponent's skill? Or speed?
Guess whose interpretation of the film has actual canon to back it up?
Not yours?
Nph, you seem to be an intelligent guy. Tell me, can you tell me exactly how any of this contradicts the movie? And why would he lie about a dead opponent's skill? Or speed?
ugh3
I've told you twice. Go and get your eyes checked then read your own quotes or my damn posts.
'"More than once the Jedi had to parry desperately to turn a bolt aside. He kept up his offensive flurry, though, keeping Jango on the defensive with sudden stabs and slashing cuts. One misstep... And then it happened, all of a sudden."
The highlighted part directly contradicts the movie, making the whole thing null and void.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not yours?ugh3
I've told you [b]twice
. Go and get your eyes checked then read your own quotes or my damn posts.'"More than once the Jedi had to parry desperately to turn a bolt aside. He kept up his offensive flurry, though, keeping Jango on the defensive with sudden stabs and slashing cuts. One misstep... And then it happened, all of a sudden."
The highlighted part directly contradicts the movie, making the whole thing null and void. [/B]
What?
I just checked all my posts. Never have I disputed this. I haven't even used that quote. The desperately part is the one I'm using.
Go on then, apologize.
Also mine does.
I think I've missed something here.I know that Mace only slashed twice.
I know that Mace desperately parried multiple times.My argument isn't retarded
Tis. And you wouldn't be confused if you'd read my original post. Cracker. uhuh
The quote sets up a scenario which directly contradicts the movie, casting the entire thing either into non-canon or a highly questionable light. Either it is ruled out entirely on N-canon grounds, or we have absolutely no reason to believe a word it says becuase A) its the opinion or a fallible, faulty human being B) it demonstrates its fallibility in the very next line by describing something that never actually happened and C) common sense would say that the effortlessly casual way Windu kills him with on-screen itself and the fact that Jango does absolutely nothing that would give even a padawan pause is ample proof that the quote is stupid and baseless, should be ignored and that Jango Fett is absolutely nowhere near Windus level.
Okay, what I gathered from that, is that because the novel failed to accurately discribe one line, the entire fight is void? I don't care about that one line. I care about the one that predeces it. I never made the claim that Windu kept Jango on the defence. I never made the claim that that Windu made any sudden stabs. Although I don't fully understand your post, true, but this line is canon, this line is not contradicted, by anything:
More than once the Jedi had to parry desperately to turn a bolt aside.
So one single line is not important yet you happily hinge your entire argument on a seperate single line? Lulz.
I don't pretend to know much about canon and whats considered it or not. I'm just going with the concept that theres a similar case where some of the Windu, Palpatine fight in the ROTS book is non-canon becuase Anakins there when he shouldn't be. You'd have to ask Lucien or Nemesis or Beefy about that.
It doesn't really matter though, becuase that quote is useless anyway for the reasons I posted above and I will post again below.
'or we have absolutely no reason to believe a word it says becuase A) its the opinion of a fallible, faulty human being B) it demonstrates its fallibility in the very next line by describing something that never actually happened and C) common sense would say that the effortlessly casual way Windu kills him with on-screen itself and the fact that Jango does absolutely nothing that would give even a padawan pause is ample proof that the quote is stupid and baseless, should be ignored and that Jango Fett is absolutely nowhere near Windus level.'
Facial expressions (or lack thereof) mean nothing. They do no dictate the fight. They have no impact on either warrior's performance. A smiling Palpatine would have still lost to Windu.
They're indicative of a fight.
It is additional evidence, when you're disregarding.
There's degrees of desperation. Mace was more desperate against Palpatine than against Jango and still won.
You interpret that his blocks weren't desperate.
Actually, no. You didn't even read my argument, did you?
I said they weren't desperate enough to indicate Mace was in real trouble.
The novel says his blocks were desperate. I have something to back up my interpreatation.
The information you have is: "There is some desperation." That is your solid evidence.
The information you don't have is: Degree of desperation.
This is important since your argument relies on the degree, see?
In Shatterpoint, he acknowledges his speed, which rivals his.
In Shatterpoint, he acknowledges his skill, which rivals his.
In AOTC, his speed and skills are put to the test. They push him to the edge, but not over it.
Whoa whoa whoa, he never said Jango's skill rivaled his, only that he was skilled. He never said he was at the edge during the fight.
Again, degrees.