Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by Accel
I guess you wouldn't mind citing some examples for me then?

Sure. Birds of Prey #68, Dinah vs Diana. Dinah comments inside her head while sparing that she might be able to do real damage with her cry, but then it'd be powers-on (mentally mentioning both strength and speed) and be knocked to Pluto. Black Canary also clearly respects Diana as her superior in skill and is somewhat disbelieving when she gets a hit in (again, with Dinah commenting in her head that there's no super-speed involved!).

When Wonder Woman spars, it's pretty obvious. Batman doesn't normally try chokeholds on super strong people, but says he'd try it against her in one of their matches (Tower of Babel), logically because it's powers off (though she rightly points out he wouldn't have the time to make it work anyway against her skill, but it hardly seem the kind of thing he'd try in a powers-on match).

Yeah, again that's holding back, but she can't simply turn off her vastly superior strength, speed, reflexes, yada, yada.

Her showings in sparring sessions against street-levelers are skewed because she always has a stat advantage over them.

Not to mention Black Canary still beat her in their sparring session.

Originally posted by Juk3n
edited

Black Panther (T'challa) to the same level as Cap and DD, if not, why not? And "only space for a limited amount" can take a flying leap, he's not 'just about' top tier 'on the bottom rung' he is equal to Matt and Steve period.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm guilty of this as well, but I just realized that we're all only tossing out suggestions. We'll have to contribute votes as well if changes will be made.

Notes:
-This is what I've managed to discern from the posts. If I've misinterpreted your intentions please let me know.

-comicfan11, I've noted all your proposed changes, however since you proposed quite a lot I will reserve them as the next round of changes.

-Smurph's old votes removed. My old vote removed. Accel would you like me to remove your old vote?

-If the two vote majority holds Jubilee's movement will be defeated, unless there are more votes in her favor.

-Thanos, Gamora, Mar-Vell and Hawkeye changes are new, so they should probably get a bit more time. However they're close to being a consensus opinion, imo. Green Arrow and Starfire are in a similar situation to an extent.

Proposed Additions
Darkseid to second tier: 1 [Gecko4lif] /
Nemesis to second tier: 1 [Style]

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 2 [Cresh, Q99] / 4 [llag, Nataku, Bran, Style]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Bran, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Bran]
Midnighter to second: 2 [Soljer, Bran] / 3 [Style, endrict, srank]
Blade to second: 3 [endrict, Darth Martin, Bran] / 4 [Style, llagrok, capt, srank]

New Proposed Changes
Replace Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman: 1 [Q99] / 2 [srank, Accel]
Orion to uber tier: 1 [comicfan11] /
Starfire to second: 2 [Q99, Konton] / 0
Tim Drake to second: 1 [MM] /
Alpha to second: 1 [Q99] /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 [Q99]
Thanos to second: 3 [Boubonmaster, Q99, srank?] / 0
Captain Mar-Vell to second: 3 [Boubonmaster, Q99. srank?] / 0
Gamora to uber: 3 [Boubonmaster, Q99, srank?] / 0
Hawkeye to second: 3 [Smurph, Accel, Q99] / 0
Green Arrow (Oliver) to third: 2 [SAccel, Q99] / 0

My vote for Kingpin can stay I guess. Never said any thing about Nemesis though.

Originally posted by Accel
My vote for Kingpin can stay I guess. Never said any thing about Nemesis though.

I'm for the Thanos, captian Mar-vell, and Gamora move down also

Maybe 'Bump Constantine Down' and 'Bump Wonder Woman up' should be split up. There's more than one person who people want bumped to top tier after all.

I don't think Orion should be uber-tier. I mean, he may have some showings that suggest it, but most of the time he's not portrayed as a skill monster.

Originally posted by Accel
Yeah, again that's holding back, but she can't simply turn off her vastly superior strength, speed, reflexes, yada, yada.

What precisely is the difference between 'not using any superior speed, strength, reflexes, etc.' and turning them off? It feels to me like you're splitting hairs.

Diana said she wasn't holding back in skill in that fight, and Dinah noted she wasn't using powers at the same time.

Not to mention Black Canary still beat her in their sparring session.

You should also note it was a pure challenge to see if Dinah could get one hit in, with Diana just hanging on the defense, and Dinah still disbelieved the result at first. Even with powers off/totally held back Dinah felt she was the better fighter, and it took a lot of effort for her to get that one shot. So they aren't that far in ability.

Hm... let's go with another one. Diana recently had her powers turned off when thrown into another dimension. No powers, at all, not so much as her lasso. While there, she was able to hold the edge in combat with legendary warriors like Beowulf and Hrothgar.

Originally posted by Accel
Yeah, again that's holding back, but she can't simply turn off her vastly superior strength, speed, reflexes, yada, yada.

Her showings in sparring sessions against street-levelers are skewed because she always has a stat advantage over them.

Not to mention Black Canary still beat her in their sparring session.

Diana was upgraded (in a sense) by Circe to be able to completely shut down her powers whenever she takes the WW mantle off. She always powers down when she goes into Diana Prince mode and in her sparring match with Canary she was in street clothes.

I vote for Blade to be moved to master martial artist. I also am wondering why Silver Samurai is ranked so high. Is this weapons or H2H skills? What has he done H2H?

Originally posted by Q99
Maybe 'Bump Constantine Down' and 'Bump Wonder Woman up' should be split up. There's more than one person who people want bumped to top tier after all.

When everybody is special, nobody is.

It's set at 90th percentile, i.e. everyone in the top tier should be roughly equal or better than everybody top tier or below.

The top tier will expand as the list expands, it is nearing the point where an additional slot will open for a Marvel character and a DC character.

-----

On an aside I want to propose adding Cinderella and Boy Blue from Fables to the list somewhere.

Originally posted by Q99
What precisely is the difference between 'not using any superior speed, strength, reflexes, etc.' and turning them off? It feels to me like you're splitting hairs.

If Diana is sparring with Batman, yes she can hold back. She doesn’t have to move the fastest she can or punch the hardest she can. But to someone who can block multiple bullets, a punch or a kick coming from someone like Black Canary would be moving in slow motion. So how do you negate that factor?

Or to put it in a real-world hypothetical scenario, say you were sparring with a ten-year-old. You’re obviously going to be much stronger, tougher, and faster. So how exactly do you fight on the kid’s level?

Originally posted by Q99
You should also note it was a pure challenge to see if Dinah could get one hit in, with Diana just hanging on the defense, and Dinah still disbelieved the result at first. Even with powers off/totally held back Dinah felt she was the better fighter.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm... let's go with another one. Diana recently had her powers turned off when thrown into another dimension. No powers, at all, not so much as her lasso. While there, she was able to hold the edge in combat with legendary warriors like Beowulf and Hrothgar.

Originally posted by Konton
Diana was upgraded (in a sense) by Circe to be able to completely shut down her powers whenever she takes the WW mantle off. She always powers down when she goes into Diana Prince mode and in her sparring match with Canary she was in street clothes.

I doubt she'd think about any of that if WW was powerless in that scene.

Really? You don’t know the difference? Okay then, riddle me this: how exactly does one just turn off one’s own superhuman strength, speed, durability, and reflexes? You claimed earlier that she fights at human-strength level- how the hell does that work?

If Diana is sparring with Batman, yes she can hold back. She doesn’t have to move the fastest she can or punch the hardest she can. But to someone who can block multiple bullets, a punch or a kick coming from someone like Black Canary would be moving in slow motion. So how do you negate that factor?

She throws a punch but doesn't channel her divine might into it (as Dinah *said she didn't*). She takes a step but doesn't send the nerve signals that trigger the speed of Hermes. Think of her powers like additional muscles- she can send the signals to use those, or she can not. That seems to be consistent with how it works, just like some super speedsters don't perceive fast constantly and have to kick it in.

Durability is the only one of those that is constant-on.

And I understand you have a problem with the mechanics, but it's still self-evident that she did.

And again, it’s simply a matter of Diana not going all out.

Not going all out all the way down to human level and never going above 'em during the entire course of the fight.

but she’ll still have speed and strength edge no matter what.

A speed and strength edge that is not used in a fight might as well not exist in that fight.

Lovely. This means shit-all to me though.

Well, Beowulf's one of the greatest warriors in history. Take from that what you will.

Originally posted by Accel
Canary also mentions that Diana is holding back her strength and speed,

Canary mentioned she wasn't using her super strength and speed. What more do you need?

Originally posted by Q99
She throws a punch but doesn't channel her divine might into it (as Dinah *said she didn't*). She takes a step but doesn't send the nerve signals that trigger the speed of Hermes. Think of her powers like additional muscles- she can send the signals to use those, or she can not. That seems to be consistent with how it works, just like some super speedsters don't perceive fast constantly and have to kick it in.

Originally posted by Q99
Not going all out all the way down to human level and never going above 'em during the entire course of the fight.

Originally posted by Q99
A speed and strength edge that is not used in a fight might as well not exist in that fight.

This just goes back to that example of fighting a kid I mentioned before. You can try to fight the kid on his level but you’ll still be able to see his moves coming a mile away and that’s something you can change.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, Beowulf's one of the greatest warriors in history. Take from that what you will.

Originally posted by Q99
Canary mentioned she wasn't using her super strength and speed. What more do you need?

Again, this something that someone like Superman can do. You don't have to move a ridiculous speeds to be just fast enough to avoid every punch or kick a street-leveler throws your way.

Against Mar-vell moving down, against Gamora moving down (lol), against the Wonder Woman move, against Orion (lol), and ya, that should be all.

For Gamora, against Orion, against Tim Drake, for Jubilee.

She said she wasn’t using a tenth of her speed and strength. But even if she was using 1% of her speed or strength she’d still be much faster and much stronger than Canary.

Again, this something that someone like Superman can do. You don't have to move a ridiculous speeds to be just fast enough to avoid every punch or kick a street-leveler throws your way.

And yet, Dinah and Bruce both treat it like fair fights, and Wonder Woman does too. She is very much the type not to cheat, and she said it was a fair test. What's preventing her from going at precisely human level, and not going above that once if she desires to? Sure, she can amp it up, but it'd be out of character for her to do so (as for the perception thing: Even Flash moves in and out of super perception and only kicks in when something really fast happens or he wants to. There's no sign she's in hyper-speed perception all the time either).

Wonder Woman *knows* how fast a human moves, and how fast she moves as a human (having been depowered at times).

Plus when depowered, she fight at or above the level of legendary heroes, and when powered, she beats even extremely experienced and skilled similarly powered fighters like Barda in hand to hand.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
I vote for Blade to be moved to master martial artist. I also am wondering why Silver Samurai is ranked so high. Is this weapons or H2H skills? What has he done H2H?

----

I'm not sure whether skill in unarmed martial arts may take a slight precedent though. That's up to the discretion of the consensus.

-This is what I've managed to discern from the posts. If I've misinterpreted your intentions please let me know.

-Thanos, Gamora, Mar-Vell and Hawkeye changes are new, so they should probably get a bit more time. However they're close to being a consensus opinion, imo. Green Arrow and Starfire are in a similar situation to an extent. But I'll make some sort of "Last call" before modifications are made.

-I'm proposing adding three characters from Fables: Cinderella, Boy Blue and Prince Charming, into the Fourth Tier purely to get them on the list. They may deserve higher placings.

-Just noticed Big Barda should probably be on here somewhere as well. Suggestions on placement?

Proposed Additions
Darkseid to second tier: 1 [Gecko4lif] /
Nemesis to second tier: 1 [Style] /

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 [Cresh, Q99, Konton] / 4 [llag, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket]
Midnighter to second: 2 [Soljer, Blanket] / 3 [Style, endrict, srank]
Blade to second: 4 [snoop, endrict, Darth Martin, Blanket] / 4 [Style, llagrok, capt, srank]

New Proposed Changes
Replace Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman: 1 [Q99] / 3 [srank, Accel, Blanket]
Orion to uber tier: 1 [comicfan11] / 3 [Q99, Blanket, Konton]
Starfire to second: 2 [Q99, Konton] / 0
Tim Drake to second: 1 [MM] / 1 [Konton]
Alpha to second: 1 [Q99] /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 [Q99] /
Thanos to second: 4 [Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 0
Captain Mar-Vell to second: 4 [Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 1 [Blanket]
Gamora to uber: 4 [Konton, Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 1 [Blanket]
Hawkeye to second: 3 [Smurph, Accel, Q99] / 0
Green Arrow (Oliver) to third: 2 [SAccel, Q99] / 0