Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by Q99
And yet, Dinah and Bruce both treat it like fair fights, and Wonder Woman does too. She is very much the type not to cheat, and she said it was a fair test. What's preventing her from going at precisely human level, and not going above that once if she desires to? Sure, she can amp it up, but it'd be out of character for her to do so.

Is not a fair test if Cassandra Cain uses her superior speed in a fight against the Question. Or should she slow herself down to his level?

And…

“What's preventing her from going at precisely human level, and not going above that once if she desires to?”

...really? You still don’t get it? The fact that she’s much stronger and much faster than a normal human in the first place is what’s preventing her. That’s it. Taking it easy on someone who’s your physical inferior does NOT equate to fighting on his/her level.

Again, this just goes back to my example: what's to prevent me from fighting at the level of an 11-year-old who attends after-school karate lessons?

For one, I can't just make myself weaker. Secondly, I'm naturally much faster than the kid; sure, I can slow myself down so he can keep up, but that doesn't mean I'm fighting him on equal terms.

You're talking about who is naturally faster and stronger to the point where she'd have to pull her punches to avoid taking Batman's head off and yet she would have to moving relative slow motion for Batman to even keep up with her. The fact that her superpowers are present at all skews any showings while sparring with others.

Originally posted by Q99
Wonder Woman *knows* how fast a human moves, and how fast she moves as a human (having been depowered at times).

And yet his speed advantage came into full play when facing Mr. X. Guess Pietro is more skilled than I thought.

Originally posted by Q99
Plus when depowered, she fight at or above the level of legendary heroes, and when powered, she beats even extremely experienced and skilled fighters like Barda in hand to hand.

Superman = Top-Tier?

Also, since you seemed to miss it with your last response...

Originally posted by Q99
She throws a punch but doesn't channel her divine might into it (as Dinah *said she didn't*). She takes a step but doesn't send the nerve signals that trigger the speed of Hermes. Think of her powers like additional muscles- she can send the signals to use those, or she can not. That seems to be consistent with how it works, just like some super speedsters don't perceive fast constantly and have to kick it in.

...I'm still waiting for evidence on this. I don't want it to be conveniently forgotten.

Against Gamora, for all your Fables placements (thought I reckon at least Cindy should be higher)

Against Gamora

Clint to 2nd tier 👆

Originally posted by Accel
A powered Superman can fight Wonder Woman in H2H as well.

Superman = Top-Tier?

In the hand to hand section of the Sacrifice fight, she pretty clearly was doing better than him despite being out-powered.

Heck, it's shown she can take most of the justice league at once in hand to hand when blindfolded.

When it comes to powered fighting there aren't many people with skill fights as good as hers.

...I'm still waiting for evidence on this. I don't want it to be conveniently forgotten.

That's just a possibly explanation on how it'd work that's consistant with what's shown.

She pretty visibly is fighting at human level.

What’s “human speed” exactly?

Diana's non-powered speed.

Anyway, it's pretty clear you aren't budging, so I'm for moving on to discuss other martial artists.

Originally posted by Accel
But to someone who can block multiple bullets, a punch or a kick coming from someone like Black Canary would be moving in slow motion. So how do you negate that factor?

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batbulletblock.jpg

haw-som

Originally posted by batdude123
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batbulletblock.jpg

haw-som

Wait, did *Batman* just do the 'bullets and bracers' thing? How does that work?

*Grumbles to self about arguing on even though I just said I'd drop it*

For one, I can't just make myself weaker. Secondly, I'm naturally much faster than the kid; sure, I can slow myself down so he can keep up, but that doesn't mean I'm fighting him on equal terms.

You can't, she can and does, that's what I'm saying.

You're talking about who is naturally faster and stronger to the point where she'd have to pull her punches to avoid taking Batman's head off and yet she would have to moving relative slow motion for Batman to even keep up with her. The fact that her superpowers are present at all skews any showings while sparring with others.

Only if they're being used. If they aren't being used then it doesn't matter if she has them.

Quicksilver knows how fast human are too. He was depowered once.

And yet his speed advantage came into full play when facing Mr. X. Guess Pietro is more skilled than I thought.

But he was *using* his speed. He doesn't have to. He could move at human speed and take punches if he wanted to.

Flash moves at human speed and turns off his hyper-reaction all the time (and he'd likely go insane if he didn't). Hyper-speed perception is something most people in DC with super speed can just turn off in mundane life.

Originally posted by Q99
Wait, did *Batman* just do the 'bullets and bracers' thing? How does that work?

Because he's the God damn Batman.

Also, lulz @ the idea of Wonder Woman "turning off her powers" when sparring with Batman and the like.

Originally posted by Q99
Anyway, it's pretty clear you aren't budging

I think you've both made your points and it's likely best to leave that move to the vote now.

An update on the votes for changes.

-This is what I've managed to discern from the posts. If I've misinterpreted your intentions please let me know.

-Hawkeye and Thanos to second appears to have a strong consensus behind it. Unless there's a major change in the votes these moves will be implemented in the next update.

-Mar-Vell, Green Arrow and Starfire changes are close to being a consensus opinion, either unopposed or a reasonable majority. But I'll make some sort of "Last call" before modifications are made.

-Just noticed Big Barda should probably be on here somewhere as well. Suggestions on placement?

Proposed Additions
Darkseid to second tier: 1 [Gecko4lif] /
Nemesis to second tier: 1 [Style] /
Cinderella, Boy Blue and Prince Charming to fourth (to begin): 2 [Smurph, me]

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 [Cresh, Q99, Konton] / 4 [llag, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket]
Midnighter to second: 2 [Soljer, Blanket] / 3 [Style, endrict, srank]
Blade to second: 4 [snoop, endrict, Darth Martin, Blanket] / 4 [Style, llagrok, capt, srank]

New Proposed Changes
Replace Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman: 1 [Q99] / 3 [srank, Accel, Blanket]
Orion to uber tier: 1 [comicfan11] / 3 [Q99, Blanket, Konton]
Starfire to second: 2 [Q99, Konton] / 0
Tim Drake to second: 1 [MM] / 1 [Konton]
Alpha to second: 1 [Q99] /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 [Q99] /
Thanos to second: 4 [Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 0
Captain Mar-Vell to second: 4 [Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 1 [Blanket]
Gamora to uber: 4 [Konton, Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 2 [Blanket, Smurph]
Hawkeye to second: 4 [Stilt, Smurph, Accel, Q99] / 0
Green Arrow (Oliver) to third: 2 [Accel, Q99] / 0

Big Barda above whatever tier orion is on

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
Big Barda above whatever tier orion is on

Also count me in on the move Thanos to second initiative.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Nah. Orion > Barda.

Also count me in on the move Thanos to second initiative.

Originally posted by Accel
It's pretty clear you don't know what you're talking about.

There would literally be no point to the fights if it was as you said, yet Batman, Dinah, and Diana all treat them as if they're real challenges that either side could win.

Perhaps a better way to state my point is: "Does everyone who would know treat it as a real, serious contest of martial arts skills? Yes? Then it probably is."

Iron Fist needs to be bumped up to uber. ASAP.

Originally posted by dmills
Iron Fist needs to be bumped up to uber. ASAP.

How much of that is his chi powers, though?

Originally posted by dmills
Iron Fist needs to be bumped up to uber. ASAP.

Ummm... no? Sure he is powerful and versatile, but in terms of technique and application of skill he is slightly below Daredevil (equal at the most generous), and Daredevil isn't the top dog in that tier.