Originally posted by Tha C-MasterWhile that is true, it is irrelevant to my earlier point. I'm talking about the character's motivation to fight, not their qualification as a hero. Both Ryu and Mega Man fulfill the hero definition.
Although hero has many terms. On top of the one mentioned above. A hero can also portray ideals of inner strength or something. A person who won a battle against a deadly disease or illness may be seen as a hero without actually "rescuing" anyone per se.
Originally posted by AcrosurgeI thought we were talking about "who" was more of one.
While that is true, it is irrelevant to my earlier point. I'm talking about the character's motivation to fight, not their qualification as a hero. Both Ryu and Mega Man fulfill the hero definition.
In a different case, some sadist could consider someone like Dr. Wily or M. Bison their hero as well.
Originally posted by Tha C-MasterLikely, Akuma and Sigma as well. For my part, I respect Sigma. His overwhelming power, intelligence, leadership, and charisma are amazing attributes. His original desire to protect reploids was admirable, but his notion that Reploids should annihilate the humans (due to reploids being superior in every way) was downright evil. And from there, Sigma became obsessed with possessing, destroying, or manipulating X and Zero, the only one's able to stand against his power.
I thought we were talking about "who" was more of one.In a different case, some sadist could consider someone like Dr. Wily or M. Bison their hero as well.
Originally posted by AcrosurgeI'm a martial artist (Muay Thai, Jiu Jitsu, Wing Chun). I've studied quite a few of the philosophies surrounding the traditional arts of fighting.
Same on both accounts, I irregularly study Judo and Koryu Ju-Jutsu.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
But Ryu's goals (including the one's implied by Classic NES: self-restraint, heath, and self-defense) are self-focused, because their benefits are primarily for Ryu's own enlightenment. Because the journey is for Ryu and the goals are for Ryu, Ryu's motivations for fighting are, by definition, self-centered.
Your missing the gist of what I'm saying.
Even if we assume Megamans goal is "greater" than ryu's. The idea of it being a stronger motivation is only true within the confines of his universe. Because Megaman is a superhero in superhero fiction where the common trope of good prevailing over evil is omnipresent. He represents the strongest force in his fictional universe: Good/Justice. Street Fighter being martial arts fiction has different focuses. The strongest people are martial arts Masters or "True Warriors" E.G.: Gen, Oro, Gouki, and Bison. Despite the fact that most of them aren't good and in oro's case ambivalent to evil. Ryu's motivation is the strongest in his universe. and the same is true for megaman.
Originally posted by Phoenix3068
Then this thread is irrelevant because the one who would be stronger/better doesn't matter, it's which universe they are in. The Megaman universe or the Street Fighter universe sense they both have different relativity when it comes to which is the strongest.
That's only in regards to stronger motivations.
I think one thing that's different is how the two worlds handle specs. Megaman being a battle robot has everything mapped out and on the table for the audience. While Ryu is much more vague, he's considered a good fighter with alot of room to improve. You really can't get much from that lol. It's easier to make Megaman the winner.
Originally posted by Classic NESI can see your point, however Ryu's motivations have their flaws and the Street Fighter plot actually points this out from time to time. Ryu himself states that he must become stronger and that he strives to understand why he fights. This is why he spends so little time resting and pushes on his journey to the next fight. Ryu strives to understand the purpose of the fight. He knows that when he reaches that knowledge, he will have become stronger, but he doesn't have it yet. Akuma sees this lack of knowledge (weakness) as well, but believes that Ryu can surmount this obstacle by relying on the dark hadou.
Even if we assume Megamans goal is "greater" than ryu's. The idea of it being a stronger motivation is only true within the confines of his universe. Because Megaman is a superhero in superhero fiction where the common trope of good prevailing over evil is omnipresent. He represents the strongest force in his fictional universe: Good/Justice. Street Fighter being martial arts fiction has different focuses. The strongest people are martial arts Masters or "True Warriors" E.G.: Gen, Oro, Gouki, and Bison. Despite the fact that most of them aren't good and in oro's case ambivalent to evil. Ryu's motivation is the strongest in his universe. and the same is true for megaman.
Now, can you honestly state that the protection of others is a "lesser" motivation than the physical/spiritual knowledge of oneself? If you are facing an opponent stronger than yourself, a hopeless battle, will you fight harder simply to understand your own strength? What if by your failure in the fight, your loved ones will die? I fight to strengthen my body and mind, but a fight would become completely different if I'm protecting someone, say, my sister. Ryu hasn't found his final motivation yet. It is why he is still on the journey. Therefore, IMO, his motivation to fight is still less than Mega Man's. Someday, however, he will find it.
Originally posted by The ScenarioKirby even wins against yarn.
But yes, Kirby wins everything everywhere forever.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
I can see your point, however Ryu's motivations have their flaws and the Street Fighter plot actually points this out from time to time.
Yeah, they do have their flaws just like everything. But, unless it's actually flawed they aren't worth mentioning.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
Now, can you honestly state that the protection of others is a "lesser" motivation than the physical/spiritual knowledge of oneself?If you are facing an opponent stronger than yourself, a hopeless battle, will you fight harder simply to understand your own strength? What if by your failure in the fight, your loved ones will die? I fight to strengthen my body and mind, but a fight would become completely different if I'm protecting someone, say, my sister. Ryu hasn't found his final motivation yet. It is why he is still on the journey. Therefore, IMO, his motivation to fight is still less than Mega Man's. Someday, however, he will find it.
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IRL, the strongest motivations are those tied to survival instinct. If your life is in danger generally, you will become stronger, faster, and mentally sharper. Now while protecting someone will trigger that instinct, it ultimately depends on who you are protecting. If it's just a random stranger IRL it's unlikely that you'll get that added boost, but if it's someone close like in your example a close relative then it can happen. But even if that instinct were to happen for a complete stranger, that's irrelevant because at the end of the day if we consider Ryu to be comparable to a human being and we seem to since you brought a real life analogy. Then his motivations would be no different then mines or yours. Furthermore, you go on about Megaman fighting to protect. . .but, why would he be motivated to protect if he's fighting Ryu? Who would he have to protect from Ryu other than himself?
Originally posted by Classic NESAgain, I'm talking about the motivation that each character has to fight in his own universe and which of those motivations would prove stronger. I'm not speaking of instinct or adrenaline or any other material reaction, but simply the act of will to fight when up against insurmountable odds. The fact remains that most of the time, Ryu's motivation to continue fighting centers on his journey of self discovery and search for strength. Mega Man's motivation to continue fighting is to protect other people (humans and robots, but specifically his creator, Dr. Light as well as his sister Roll). Make of that what you will.
Furthermore, you go on about Megaman fighting to protect. . .but, why would he be motivated to protect if he's fighting Ryu? Who would he have to protect from Ryu other than himself?
Perhaps my example was too specific a situation, but then, the comment was made earlier that Ryu was a superior warrior to Mega Man. That simply isn't true and my earlier point was meant to illustrate this.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
Again, I'm talking about the motivation that each character has to fight in his own universe and which of those motivations would prove stronger.
Already addressed this, different universes will make different focuses stronger. We should compare what can be compared.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
but simply the act of will to fight when up against insurmountable odds. The fact remains that most of the time, Ryu's motivation to continue fighting centers on his journey of self discovery and search for strength. Mega Man's motivation to continue fighting is to protect other people (humans and robots, but specifically his creator, Dr. Light as well as his sister Roll). Make of that what you will.
Earlier, you brought up a real life analogy and in the real world the instinct for preservation is what allows you to fight insurmountable odds. It makes you stronger and faster for a reason.
Furthermore, there is no greater will that correlates to fighting for a greater cause. Zealots who fight for a cause irl, only do so because their ideology is ingrained in who they are and how they function so much that any threat to it triggers fight/flight responses.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
Perhaps my example was too specific a situation, but then, the comment was made earlier that Ryu was a superior warrior to Mega Man. That simply isn't true and my earlier point was meant to illustrate this.
I believe the comment was trying to imply that because Ryu is a true warrior he would be stronger. I don't really see how that works, Megaman is a combat robot that fights Dr. Wily's war machine. Ryu is a vagabond that gets into street fights to challenge himself. I don't think they can be compared to each other in regards to how they fight or even why. At this point it's more about who can dish out the most damage and who can take more. In that regard Megaman wins because of his tech-specs.
Originally posted by Classic NESThere is also such a thing as the will to continue a fight when the body has exhausted its resources. This includes the exhaustion of the body's natural fight/flight instinct. Even when your body has exhausted its adrenaline supply, you can force yourself to keep going by an act of will. The will to continue a fight is exactly what I'm speaking about and differs depending upon the fighter. When two fighters are near equivalent in skill and physical conditioning, the will to fight is what decides the victor.
Earlier, you brought up a real life analogy and in the real world the instinct for preservation is what allows you to fight insurmountable odds. It makes you stronger and faster for a reason.
Originally posted by Classic NESIn this regard, at least, we are agreed. Mega Man simply has superior stats.
At this point it's more about who can dish out the most damage and who can take more. In that regard Megaman wins because of his tech-specs.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
There is also such a thing as the will to continue a fight when the body has exhausted its resources. This includes the exhaustion of the body's natural fight/flight instinct. Even when your body has exhausted its adrenaline supply, you can force yourself to keep going by an act of will. The will to continue a fight is exactly what I'm speaking about and differs depending upon the fighter. When two fighters are near equivalent in skill and physical conditioning, the will to fight is what decides the victor.
Your will to keep fighting is your survival instinct, as long as you desire to live in a traumatic situation your survival instinct can be considered to still be in effect. There's really no such thing as "Running on empty" because if your moving, fighting and in this case acting on something then you still have something left even if it's minuscule. You can't muster up strength if you have none. Real fights rarely come down to will, if someone shanks you with a blade or hip throws you head first into bare concrete. Then the fights over, doesn't matter how much fight you had in you.
Originally posted by Classic NESI'm speaking specifically of adrenaline, here. This is a chemical reaction that you can physically exhaust. Yet, by an act of will, you can keep operating after that chemical high is gone.
Your will to keep fighting is your survival instinct, as long as you desire to live in a traumatic situation your survival instinct can be considered to still be in effect. There's really no such thing as "Running on empty" because if your moving, fighting and in this case acting on something then you still have something left even if it's minuscule. You can't muster up strength if you have none. Real fights rarely come down to will, if someone shanks you with a blade or hip throws you head first into bare concrete. Then the fights over, doesn't matter how much fight you had in you.
There's no such thing as "Running on empty"? You might need to talk to more folks in the army as well as various special forces. They are often put in grueling situations over long periods of time where the body becomes exhausted, but they must keep going. For those that operate alone to fulfill their orders, what keeps them going is will. Various operatives have various will motivations. The strongest are friends, family, or husbands/wives. You can argue semantics here and say that they're simply stimulating energy their bodies had all along, but medically speaking, their adrenaline reserves deplete after a set time. I don't think you can call this "survival instinct" either because men/women who have been pushed like this will tell you it isn't instinctual, rather it is a conscious act of the mind to continue the mission. The body's instinct for survival would be to get to safety rather than continue to put oneself in harms way.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
I'm speaking specifically of adrenaline, here. This is a chemical reaction that you can physically exhaust. Yet, by an act of will, you can keep operating after that chemical high is gone.
The survival instinct isn't just adrenalin, though. It doesn't end due to adrenal fatigue. It's a set of cognitive programs designed to allow you to keep going.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
There's no such thing as "Running on empty"? You might need to talk to more folks in the army as well as various special forces. They are often put in grueling situations over long periods of time where the body becomes exhausted, but they must keep going.
There are also alot of myths as well in regards to military history. Operating on resolve only is easily one of them. If your wounded in battle, you're no going to go far. You're literally bleeding out your strength. Being determined won't change that, nor is there any deeper will that you can act on to transcend your limitations. Most people don't even know their limitations. So, they can't imagine they could go so far.
Originally posted by Acrosurge
For those that operate alone to fulfill their orders, what keeps them going is will. Various operatives have various will motivations. The strongest are friends, family, or husbands/wives. You can argue semantics here and say that they're simply stimulating energy their bodies had all along, but medically speaking, their adrenaline reserves deplete after a set time.
I don't think you can call this "survival instinct" either because men/women who have been pushed like this will tell you it isn't instinctual, rather it is a conscious act of the mind to continue the mission. The body's instinct for survival would be to get to safety rather than continue to put oneself in harms way.
Except that it is a survival instinct. It doesn't end because your consciously thinking, since it effects your conscious decisions making in the first place And, like I said before the instinct is not adrenalin, rather it's the program that causes you to release adrenalin. Big difference, it means that even if you exhaust your chemical supply you're still running on that mode.
Family motivations are as primal as you can get, in nature the male mammals are generally motivated to protect their family when they're available. The instinct can manifest as both selfish or selfless action, depending on how your brain is wired at any given time.
Originally posted by Classic NESPerhaps I'm just not communicating precisely enough. Have you been in the military or any branch of special forces? I've had three friends in spec forces including one who later became my biology professor. Another good friend of mine served in Afghanistan for two ToDs. They describe utilizing the will to pull the most from your body during highly strenuous conditions. One thinks that one is exhausted, but one isn't really exhausted and rather than give up (which is what the mind wants to do) one uses the will to continue fighting or working under fire. If you like, you can say that you are willing yourself to draw on the resources already present in the body. The same thing can happen in a fight, unless it mirrors the surprise attack situation described earlier, in which you really don't have time to react at all.
There are also alot of myths as well in regards to military history. Operating on resolve only is easily one of them. If your wounded in battle, you're no going to go far. You're literally bleeding out your strength. Being determined won't change that, nor is there any deeper will that you can act on to transcend your limitations. Most people don't even know their limitations. So, they can't imagine they could go so far.
Originally posted by Classic NESAt some points, I think we're talking semantics about the same thing, then at other points I think we're talking about different things. I think I'm getting hung up on your term "instinct". This refers to something wired into your biology, akin to the same instincts that animals possess. In a dangerous situation, your "survival instinct" would be to get as far away from danger as fast as possible, much like the gazelle's instinct to run from a lion. But what if your mission is to run toward a lion? A gazelle would never do that, since it operates on pure instinct. A human, however, might have to run into heavy enemy fire and it takes a mental act in order to do so. This is not instinct, but intellect at work.
Except that it is a survival instinct. It doesn't end because your consciously thinking, since it effects your conscious decisions making in the first place And, like I said before the instinct is not adrenalin, rather it's the program that causes you to release adrenalin. Big difference, it means that even if you exhaust your chemical supply you're still running on that mode...Family motivations are as primal as you can get, in nature the male mammals are generally motivated to protect their family when they're available. The instinct can manifest as both selfish or selfless action, depending on how your brain is wired at any given time.
As interesting as this conversation is, we're getting too far from the topic. If you feel that you would like to further discuss the nature and ramifications of human cognitive process, feel free to PM me.
As I recall, you and I both agreed that Mega Man and Ryu are both true warriors, so this point needs no more discussion.