Originally posted by NephthysSince when the f*ck was Juyo a defensive stance?
There was a truly frenetic feeling to the combat. My fights always had a desperate quality that I've only ever felt in 1 or 2 other games.Too bad the developers are doing crappy games right now.
Huttball exclusive. Haha, I watch Totalbiscuit's StarCraft stuff, hes great. Hopfully a good look at the gameplay.
Edit: Either totalbuscuit is really good (he isn't), the Jedi Knight is OP or the Sith player suck ass.
Juyo's defensive? Are we sure? Doesn't sound like it on the advanced classes section.
If so thats some baffling research fail.
'The Juyo form active fighting attack will cause damage by the knight when used by combining 2% damage each time he hits a enemy with his lightsaber. The effect can be triggered one time every one and a half seconds and can be stacked up for 5 times. The effect will last for 6 seconds and the duration will reset each time that you strike with your lightsaber causing damage. For the length of the fight, the Jedi Sentinel will hit harder each time the fight goes on.
When playing with the Dual wielding lightsabers, you can cause enemy damage to your opponent causing high damage bleeding over 15 seconds when playing with this ability. The damage will be effective over a period of time and can be used to fight upfront when looking to cause a good amount of damage quickly.'
I can't confirm this, and I know they've changed a few skills, but it doesn't look defensive to me. The Jedi Sentinel is DPS if I'm not mistaken.
I dunno if the second paragraph is included in the Juyo stance. As you can see it looks like it which is why I included it, but I'm not sure and if it is then thats pretty haxxed.
Heres all the lightsaber forms and what they all do. Warning, some of this stuff may have been changed.
I meant the guy playins is a jackass he said "Yeah this is Juyo, clearly a defensive form." Also like wtf?
Just cos i can i'd like to include this semi related quote as its just epic xD
Lord Lucien
That's right. Even when you're playing sports, so long as you're on the defensive you're applying Soresu. Or whenever people dance---using Makashi. Whenever someone has a violent seizure full of sporadic and erratic twitching---Juyo.
I love how the original Fightsaber article has gone through the telephone game and forms have morphed over the years. I especially love how Shien and Djem so are now separate forms even though they're both based on one user in AotC - Anakin, and how KotOR II's game balancing has corrupted Juyo and Makashi. And really, Makashi weak against strong blows? I guess all those Jedi and Sith fighting in the schisms had some kind of honor system about using physical strength.
Originally posted by ares834
Makashi was never stated to be weak against strong blows. All that is stated is that Dooku's Makashi can't go head to head with Anakin's Djem So.
Right.
As their one-on-one duel reached the main floor, Dooku taunted Skywalker, remarking he felt fear, hate and anger, but that he did not use them, a typical Dun Möch application.[2] This proved to be a mistake, however: Anakin was indeed afraid, but afraid of losing Obi-Wan. The taunt enraged Skywalker, and he channeled his hatred of Dooku into his swordplay, momentarily tapping into the dark side of the Force. Refusing to be intimidated by the Sith Lord's casual token victory over Kenobi, Skywalker came at Dooku in a frenzied demonstration of Djem So, hammering and breaking through Dooku's display of Makashi.[88]
The problem here is that Anakin's "Djem So" consisted of getting angry and hammering really hard.
However, the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its lack of kinetic energy; the focus on precision and blade control hampered the ability to generate momentum in both its offensive and defensive maneuvers, leaving the attacks easily shunted aside and its parries easily battered aside. This lack of physical force left Makashi practitioners vulnerable to duelists utilizing more contemporary forms, which emphasized power and brute strength.[2]
What this tells me is that the penultimate dueling style developed specifically to combat Jedi and Sith is weak against... brute strength.
That's like designing a submarine that can't detect destroyers or depth charges.
Furthermore, if brute strength could overpower Makashi in itself, combatants like Mace, Ventress, and Grievous should not have had real trouble toppling Dooku, who relied almost solely upon the form. It seems to me that the events in RotS were exploded into a brain bug which then tricked into the description of Makashi to somehow explain how the most refined dueling form lost to some dude who lost to Obi-Wan, rather than to make a sensible 'weakness' in the form.
I find it difficult to believe that Jedi and Sith were learning to be more precise but somehow lacking common sense to build defenses against brute strength. This is even more fun when you consider that the Sith built their tenets around raw power and anger, which fuels strength.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Furthermore, if brute strength could overpower Makashi in itself, combatants like Mace, Ventress, and Grievous should not have had real trouble toppling Dooku, who relied almost solely upon the form. It seems to me that the events in RotS were exploded into a brain bug which then tricked into the description of Makashi to somehow explain how the most refined dueling form lost to some dude who lost to Obi-Wan, rather than to make a sensible 'weakness' in the form. [/B]
Completely disagree. First, unlike Mace, Ventress, and potentially Greievous, Anakin's form relies on strength. Djem So is meant to blow or "hammer" through other people's defenses. It's not so much a weakness of Makashi as it is a strength of Djem So and Anakin. Secondly, let's not get carried away. Anakin isn't just "some dude who lost to Obi-Wan" but rather one of the mightiest knights the order has ever produced. I really don't see how it's stretch that Dooku lost to Anakin.
Also I agree with what both Neph and Lightsnake said.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I would believe the quality of the strength is a factor. The finesse of Makashi can be broken if the person with Djem So is good enough. In that case, Anakin gave in to darkness and broke Dooku
That's a tall order though. How do you determine "quality" of strength as opposed to just measurements of it? It sounds like semantics to me. This needs to be elaborated upon.
Wookiepedia
Immediately after defending against an opponent's strike, a Djem So stylist followed with an attack of their own, bringing the force of the opponent's own blow against them and seeking to dominate the duel. Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength and pure power, with wide, powerful strikes and parries followed immediately by a counterattack.[1]
Unlike Soresu or Ataru, Djem So required the user not only to counterattack, but also to press the assault, combining Force-enhanced strength with powerful blade combinations to overpower and overwhelm an opponent's defenses. Djem So's sheer power, when combined with physical and Force-imbued strength, was capable of defeating a user of Makashi, a lightsaber form focused on dueling, finesse, and elegance, when employed by a skilled practitioner.[14]
So basically, just swing back really really hard with Force-aided strength, a great way to dumb down a fighting style into what few moves we see on screen.
And Makashi never found a counter to this, in the thousands of years it was practiced. I mean really, way for SW writers to take one situational victory and argue it into an absolute fact of SW. When I read this, here's what I see:
"Anakin did really well against Dooku in that one pivotal scene. Because Dooku and Anakin are the primary focus on their respective saber forms as of this writing, Anakin's victory is entirely characteristic of Djem So's superiority over Makashi, refinement of the ultimate lightsaber form be damned. Also, swinging really hard equates to unstoppable kinetic energy and clearly is the reason why Anakin won, but H2H moves that abruptly end the fight aren't taken into consideration because my crackpipe is running low. Oh yeah, Djem So > Makashi, lol."
I happen to believe that Fightsaber's original description was crucial: Makashi was THE form of forms in saber dueling. Hence it's the best at what it does. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable, but arguing that it's rendered entirely useless against something so basic as brute strength is mind-boggling. Again, I'm sure there were quite a few berserker Jedi and Sith swinging really hard throughout the Jedi schisms and Civil War, etc. If Djem So and retard strength was the only requirement to defeat Makashi, no one would practice the style.
That's like saying Han Solo hit Boba Fett's jetpack and sent him into the Sarlaac; ergo, all smugglers in TOR can defeat airborne Bounty Hunters because of an inherent weakness in jetpacks.
Completely disagree. First, unlike Mace, Ventress, and potentially Greievous, Anakin's form relies on strength.
The point is this: those beings have some considerable brute strength, Mace and Opress most of all. Yet it didn't turn into a "Beat Makashi for free" card. If Makashi was easily defeated by wide sweeping strong blows and counters, I'm sure it'd be the norm for Jedi and Sith in the Old Republic era, don't you? The above examples were, unintentionally on my part as I was just trying to think of strong characters, beaten by a Makashi user.
Anakin isn't just "some dude who lost to Obi-Wan" but rather one of the mightiest knights the order has ever produced. I really don't see how it's stretch that Dooku lost to Anakin..
Let's clarify before I continue:
I think it's ridiculous to assume that an inherent weakness in Makashi to brute strength directly lead to Dooku's downfall and thus is a binding weakness for the form as a whole. That is my primary stance. This isn't about Dooku vs Anakin, the Return.
Anakin's powerful strikes pushed the Count back, but ultimately it was his in-close maneuver which won the battle. This is Anakin employing Djem So, according to most sources. The fight was won not by superior strength with powerful saber strikes, but specifically in his way of grabbing Dooku's arm, pulling his saber down physically, and then cutting off his hands.
What does this tell us? That Makashi itself wasn't the weakness here. Dooku left himself open to a physical grapple move that ended the fight, probably because he's arrogant and doesn't consider Anakin a threat. It's not as if Anakin battered Dooku onto the ground like Luke did Vader in RotJ and then defeated him; his stronger blows were met with parries right up until the very end, when he strongarmed Dooku by hand.
Is this victory any less legit? No! In a real fight, if I could, I'd employ the same. A swordsman who doesn't use unorthodox moves to win is asking for pain, but the point is that it wasn't form weakness which undid Dooku; it was Anakin literally pulling his arms down and hacking his hands off that did the trick.
If Bruce Lee is killed by a Karate expert because he underestimates his opponent or makes a technical error in his style, this does not conclusively prove said mistake is a universal weakness in Jeet Kun Do. I'm not sure why the brain bug above is so rabidly clung to, except for appreciation for the heretical RotS novel.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
That doesn't mean it's unbeatable, but arguing that it's rendered entirely useless against something so basic as brute strength is mind-boggling.
I don't think any of us have said or supported this assertion. At all.
We're saying that as a lightsaber form, Makashi is designed for parries and glancing blocks rather than direct competition. This is obvious. Makashi is reminicent of fencing and Djem So is reminicent of someone with a battleaxe. A fencer would never try to block someone trained to use a battleaxe in a direct competition of strength. The person with the battleaxe has trained to utilise their strength and speed to bully their way through an opponents guard with powerful strikes while a fencer has trained to get around their opponents guard with precision and skill. Of course Makashi has a counter to Djem So and of course Djem So doesn't automatically defeat Makashi. The two styles have different strengths and weaknesses and differ in how they're typically implimented. But a Makashi user will not typically be able to match a Djem So user in raw kinetic power, just as a Djem So will not match a Makashi in grace. Thats all we're, or I'm at least, saying.