Originally posted by Demonic PhoenixMy mistake, i was wrong!
He states, and I quote "Even if I did defeat Ozai, [b]and I don't know that I could..."How is that Iroh saying he could beat Ozai? He never states that. What he does state is that he doesn't know if he could beat Ozai.
Iroh's only real advantage over Ozai is that he can redirect lightning, which Ozai probably knows since he saw Zuko do it. [/B]
However, the only thing that has done, is solidified my point that Iroh doesn't stand a chance against Aang... which is what this thread is about.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He states, and I quote "Even if I did defeat Ozai, [b]and I don't know that I could..."Iroh's only real advantage over Ozai is that he can redirect lightning, which Ozai probably knows since he saw Zuko do it. [/B]
The way I see that, is that Iroh knew he'd been lazy for a while, and he was much older than Ozai, who stayed in top physical shape the entire series. He didn't know if he was up to par at the moment...plus nobody wants to go up against a guy voiced by Mark Hamill, that's bad for business.
And I doubt Ozai could redirect lightning, even if he saw Zuko do it, he doesn't know the process or prerequisites, if he tried it could kill him like it almost did Zuko.
Originally posted by KingD19he didn't mean that Ozai could redirect lightning; he meant that since he saw Zuko do it against him, it would be obvious that Iroh is the one who taught him the technique. Therefore, the only surprise or edge Iroh would have in fight with Ozai, is no longer a surprise.
The way I see that, is that Iroh knew he'd been lazy for a while, and he was much older than Ozai, who stayed in top physical shape the entire series. He didn't know if he was up to par at the moment...plus nobody wants to go up against a guy voiced by Mark Hamill, that's bad for business.And I doubt Ozai could redirect lightning, even if he saw Zuko do it, he doesn't know the process or prerequisites, if he tried it could kill him like it almost did Zuko.
Originally posted by SamZED
And that means Iroh can kill Ozai with ligning while Ozai can't do the same to Iroh. We've never seen Ozai do anything impressive witout the comet amp so those feats cant be used. Heck, Zuko almost killed Ozai(by surprise but still).
Lightning is still avoidable. Aang demonstrates that. Heck, Zuko intercepts lightning shot by Azula.
While flying, Ozai was nearly as fast, if not as fast as Avatar State Aang.
Originally posted by marwash22
My mistake, i was wrong!However, the only thing that has done, is solidified my point that Iroh doesn't stand a chance against Aang... which is what this thread is about.
For the most part, yes. Avatar State Aang would stomp Iroh.
Aang with his personality intact is still in Aang's favour IMO, as Aang wouldn't have to kill Iroh to defeat Iroh.
The situation would be different. The only reason Aang didn't want to kill Ozai is because he knew he would have to kill him in order to end the war; in other words, there was no other way to end it, at least not until he decided to Energy Bend.
That's not the case in this fight. Aang doesn't have to kill Iroh to defeat him.
Originally posted by KingD19
The way I see that, is that Iroh knew he'd been lazy for a while, and he was much older than Ozai, who stayed in top physical shape the entire series. He didn't know if he was up to par at the moment...plus nobody wants to go up against a guy voiced by Mark Hamill, that's bad for business.And I doubt Ozai could redirect lightning, even if he saw Zuko do it, he doesn't know the process or prerequisites, if he tried it could kill him like it almost did Zuko.
Occam's Razor man!
As for him being up to par, I think his firebending was always up to par, it was just his physical shape that wasn't. Post-Day of the Black Sun, that's no longer an issue.
Originally posted by Demonic PhoenixYes but only because of the comet amp. We dont know if he can fly at all without it. Sure the lightning can be dodged but thats one heck of advantage.
Lightning is still avoidable. Aang demonstrates that. Heck, Zuko intercepts lightning shot by Azula.
While flying, Ozai was nearly as fast, if not as fast as Avatar State Aang.
It's highly likely that Ozai didn't just come up with that propulsion move on the fly and has done it in the past. Besides, we have seen Azula use propulsion in the past... without an amp. It's completely within logic to assume that the Firelord is better at it than his teenage daughter. He may not be able to fly as fast, but I'm betting he can still do it.
Originally posted by SamZED
Yes but only because of the comet amp. We dont know if he can fly at all without it. Sure the lightning can be dodged but thats one heck of advantage.
I was under the impression that we were using them when Sozin's Comet was around? Since that's the only time we are shown Ozai fighting anyway.
Azula was able to move herself through the air when not under the comet. Ozai is a better Firebender and demonstrated more raw power than Azula did.
He only achieved true flight because of the comet, otherwise he's like Azula, jump jets and boosts. The sheer output of the flames should have made it clear that only during the comet could he do that.
And Iroh's my boy(RIP Mako), but Aang has too much going for him all at once. Earthbending, Metalbending, Airbending, Firebeding, Waterbending, Energybending, and the ability to access the Avatar State at will? Too much for any one person, White Lotus or not.
Originally posted by KingD19you have no proof to back up that assertion. The final episode of the show is the one and only time we see Ozai fight... except for that one little exchange with Zuko during the eclipse.
He only achieved true flight because of the comet, otherwise he's like Azula, jump jets and boosts.
You don't think it's likely that if Azula can glide a foot or so off the ground with ease... her father, who is twice her age, has tons more experience and who is overall just more powerful, can fly? The level of maneuverability and precision he used in that fight should be a clear indicator that he has practiced propulsion on that level without the comet amp.
All the comet did was allow him to do it for a longer period of time and at a greater intensity.
Originally posted by KingD19On a production level... having people use propulsion on that level all throughout the series would have been counterproductive to the developments of the final battle between Aang and Ozai.
If skilled Fire Benders could fly....why didn't they do it throughout the entire series? Iroh, Jeong-Jeong, Admiral Zhao, Azula, Zuko, Ozai, etc....?
Iroh - Please inform me of a time where the opportunity to showcase that particular skill presented itself? Why would he just do it for no reason?
Jeong Jeong - He DID use it. During the lotus battle in Ba Sing Se. You have kinda burned yourself by bringing his name up. In your estimation, both Jeong Jeong and Ozai figured "Hmmm, the comet is boosting my powers, why not try flying for the first time in my life". All the people who are considered masters of firebending in the show, can use propulsion on that level. Jeong Jeong never did it before, because pre-Ba Sing Se, we had never seen him fight.
Admiral Zhoa - He's not even close to being a master, he got owned by Zuko. Also, it has been said explicitly, that all he ever bothered to learn is how to inflict damage... propulsion takes technique and discipline, something he isn't interested in.
Azula - Not skilled enough/ The extent of her propulsion power, as i already pointed out, is getting a foot or so off the ground.
Zuko - see Azula
Ozai - Have you been paying attention? The fight with Aang is the only time in the entire series that he participated in battle. It would have made no sense to have him use propulsion for no reason.
Iroh doesn't ever demonstrate the ability, even when under Sozin's Comet.
Azula merely uses it for propulsion. Even under the comet, most of what she did was propel herself, and she was mostly a few inches off the ground. She never demonstrated the level of movement that Ozai did.
Heck, when flying, she was about as fast as Katara was surfing.
Zhao? A skilled firebender 😆? Sure, by Book 1 standards.
Once Azula was introduced, and by Zuko's level from CoD-onwards, he is nothing more than an upgraded version of a regular Fire Soldier.
Zuko doesn't use the skill at all in his fight with Azula.
Jeong-Jeong's only appearance apart from the Sozin's Comet finale, was an episode in Book 1. Not to mention, what he did was hover and move a bit. That's a lot less strenuous and taxing than what Ozai was doing.
Ozai? Srsly? You're wondering why he couldn't fly throughout the entire series when he's only shown Fire-Bending in the last episode?
~ We can't really discuss Ozai when not under the comet amp.
Originally posted by SamZEDFlawed logic. Conversely, there is no proof that master firebenders could not preform the feat pre-comet. However, given that two different people preformed the act with a high level of expertise, one can infer that they had previous experience doing so.
But there's really no evidence that Ozai (or any other firebender for that matter) can fly under normal conditions. If we say that he can its gonna be an assumption. Also Iroh had plenty of opportunities to demonstate the ability to fly using fire bending.
Originally posted by SamZED
But there's really no evidence that Ozai (or any other firebender for that matter) can fly under normal conditions. If we say that he can its gonna be an assumption. Also Iroh had plenty of opportunities to demonstate the ability to fly using fire bending.
Obviously they wouldn't be able to fly like Ozai did in the finale. That much is obvious.
Flying itself though is something someone powerful enough can do. Like Marwash said, Ozai showed a lot of expertise while flying which suggests experience. He doesn't have an Avatar State where knowledge simply comes to him. Zuko was also under the amp, yet he never demonstrates flying.
Maybe Iroh isn't someone who likes to fly. He was never in a situation where the need to fly was necessary, in other words, a situation which he couldn't control with his normal firebending and stuff. Besides, he seems to hold a passive approach to Firebending, so an aggro move like propelling/flying seems out of the ordinary for him.
~ This is all still useless though. We can't use Ozai in a fight unless he's under the Comet.
While it's clear that he's the most powerful Firebender currently alive, barring Avatar State Aang and perhaps Iroh, we don't know just how powerful he is when not amped by the comet.
^Agreed.Also Iroh is not the kind of person who'd go all out with the new power just because he got it all of a sudden.
Originally posted by marwash22Actually that^ is flawed logic. There's no proof that they CAN do it so we'll have to assume that they can't untill proven otherwise. You can't ask for proofs that they can NOT do something. Going by that logic- there's no proof that Iroh CAN'T burn the whole planet with a snap of his fingers, doesnt mean we'll have to assume that he can.
Flawed logic. Conversely, there is no proof that master firebenders could not preform the feat pre-comet. However, given that two different people preformed the act with a high level of expertise, one can infer that they had previous experience doing so.