FOTJ Luke Skywalker vs DE Darth Sidious

Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]Nobody's Barrier is permanent, as evinced by Palpatine having his hand cut off in DE.

Or maybe he simply didn't have his Barrier active at the time.

This makes no sense. DE proves that Palpatine is not above being bested in lightsaber combat by a superior swordsman ie. FotJ Luke.

I never said Palpatine couldn't be bested by a superior swordsman... He can, in a lightsaber duel.

I thought I had made it clear that a lightsaber is just a toy for his own amusement. He doesn't need it. He can block and produce stronger attacks with the Force. A good example would be his fight with Yoda where he was casually tanking his own Force Lightning. That is the equivalent of tanking multiple of lightsaber strikes per second.

And your comment strongly implied that Luke wouldn't be able to deal with Palpatine's own offensive powers. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

It's alright 🙂

1. Yeah, because nobody has them permanently active, lmfao. Unless you're suggesting that he deliberately lowered his defenses just 'cuz, lol.

2. He doesn't need a lightsaber, but it's not his choice once Luke engages him in a duel.

Nowhere does he casually tank his own Lightning in RotS. There's only that final explosion vs Yoda which sent him head-over-heels backward and didn't produce that much force anyway. He was clearly affected by his own Lightning in both RotS (vs Mace, where sources say that he was either unmasked or actually disfigured) and RotJ (when Vader lifts him up and the Lightning arcs between the two of them, where sources establish that he was in pain, to the point of being immobilized — although Vader's grip was also a factor).

Also, didn't Luke's Force Light hurt Abeloth? Palpatine will also be hurt. 👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Yeah, because nobody has them permanently active, lmfao. Unless you're suggesting that he deliberately lowered his defenses just 'cuz, lol.

2. He doesn't need a lightsaber, but it's not his choice once Luke engages him in a duel.

Nowhere does he casually tank his own Lightning in RotS. There's only that final explosion vs Yoda which sent him head-over-heels backward and didn't produce that much force anyway. He was clearly affected by his own Lightning in both RotS (vs Mace, where sources say that he was either unmasked or actually disfigured) and RotJ (when Vader lifts him up and the Lightning arcs between the two of them, where sources establish that he was in pain, to the point of being immobilized — although Vader's grip was also a factor).

1. Not seeing how this counters my point. You stated that nobody has their barriers active all the time... so it's a concession, then?

2. Yes it is, since Lightning will do just fine. Better than a saber would, actually.

3. Yes, he does, I've shown you this numerous times already, so I'll simply copy-paste it here:

Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus. But Yoda had faced Force lightning before. To deflect the first bolts, he had to stop his intended strike at the Emperor. Once his initial surprise was over, he reached out to the living Force. The lightning bent, arcing back toward the Emperor.

“Destroy you, I will,” Yoda said grimly. “Just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.”

The Sith Lord only redoubled his attack.

-Revenge of the Sith junior novel

Now, you claim Sidious wasn’t hit by it, but I ask you: What is this notion based on? I’d say if Sidious is described as ”doomed” (RotS script), the lightning is hitting him. Yoda’s comment about destroying Sidious also supports my case. Nowhere is it stated the lightning missed. Nowhere is it stated that Sidious dodged. Nowhere is it stated the lightning just stopped mid-air. And none of these would even make sense, as Sidious would clearly not look like he was doomed, if the lightning was not hitting him.

4. He was disfigured in Canon, but in Legends he was simply unmasked. And just because he was unmasked doesn't mean it was actually damaging him. It just means it broke his mask. I've also made the argument that Palpatine willingly dropped the mask, which is supported by evidence. But regardless, it doesn't contradict or debunk my argument in any way, unless you argue in Canon.

5. Quotes for you claims about the Vader scene?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, didn't Luke's Force Light hurt Abeloth? Palpatine will also be hurt. 👆

Quote?

1. Not seeing how this counters my point. You stated that nobody has their barriers active all the time... so it's a concession, then?

Not sure what you think I'm conceding to. Your point was that Palpatine would always be immune to lightsaber hits, which is demonstrably false as per DE. Nobody's Barrier is always active; hence, Palpatine will not always be immune to lightsaber hits.

2. Yes it is, since Lightning will do just fine. Better than a saber would, actually.

Again, that depends on whether he can do that or not. DE II, again, shows otherwise.

3. Yes, he does, I've shown you this numerous times already, so I'll simply copy-paste it here:

Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus. But Yoda had faced Force lightning before. To deflect the first bolts, he had to stop his intended strike at the Emperor. Once his initial surprise was over, he reached out to the living Force. The lightning bent, arcing back toward the Emperor.

“Destroy you, I will,” Yoda said grimly. “Just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.”

The Sith Lord only redoubled his attack.

-Revenge of the Sith junior novel

Now, you claim Sidious wasn’t hit by it, but I ask you: What is this notion based on? I’d say if Sidious is described as ”doomed” (RotS script), the lightning is hitting him. Yoda’s comment about destroying Sidious also supports my case. Nowhere is it stated the lightning missed. Nowhere is it stated that Sidious dodged. Nowhere is it stated the lightning just stopped mid-air. And none of these would even make sense, as Sidious would clearly not look like he was doomed, if the lightning was not hitting him.

That just means the actual stream of Lightning bent towards Sidious, nothing more.

For your script quote, that's a blatantly incorrect interpretation. Sidious looking doomed is this part, not him getting hit by Lightning.

4. He was disfigured in Canon, but in Legends he was simply unmasked. And just because he was unmasked doesn't mean it was actually damaging him. It just means it broke his mask. I've also made the argument that Palpatine willingly dropped the mask, which is supported by evidence. But regardless, it doesn't contradict or debunk my argument in any way, unless you argue in Canon.

No, in Legends, there's quotes supporting both. It's a topic fraught with inconsistencies.

5. Quotes for you claims about the Vader scene?

I'll find it for you.

Originally posted by Azronger
Quote?

It's in Vortex. Just look up Myth's Luke RT.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure what you think I'm conceding to. Your point was that Palpatine would always be immune to lightsaber hits, which is demonstrably false as per DE. Nobody's Barrier is always active; hence, Palpatine will not always be immune to lightsaber hits.

Right, but refer back to my second post. I'm not looking at what Palpatine would do in-character, or what plot elements the writers would use to make him have a weakness of some kind. When looking at all the abilities he has at his disposal throughout the established SW continuity, he would never have gotten his hand sliced off, and could have easily blocked Luke's attacks with the Force.

Again, that depends on whether he can do that or not. DE II, again, shows otherwise.

Palpatine doesn't even duel in DE II; not sure what you mean. He does do it in RotS just fine, though:

An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow.

Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus.

-Revenge of the Sith junior novel

Even after being disarmed and when Yoda is about to strike, he manages to fire a Lightning blast. It seems he can use Lightning in close quarters just as well as a saber, and given that it's a more effective weapon, I don't see why he wouldn't.

That just means the actual stream of Lightning bent towards Sidious, nothing more.

For your script quote, that's a blatantly incorrect interpretation. Sidious looking doomed is this part, not him getting hit by Lightning.

Nope:

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

The part you linked comes later:

YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber. YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.[quote]

As I said, Sidious would not look like he was doomed if the bolts weren't hitting him. You need stronger evidence.

[Quote]No, in Legends, there's quotes supporting both. It's a topic fraught with inconsistencies.

Mind providing the most recent one?

I'll find it for you.

Alright.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's in Vortex. Just look up Myth's Luke RT.

Not seeing it.

Hmm... it's this. Used to think it was Oneness but it doesn't seem like it:

Abeloth pulled in the opposite direction, and they dropped back to the floor. Luke opened himself more fully to the Force, using his love for Ben and his lost wife and the entire Jedi Order to draw it into him. The foul miasma of dark side energy, still swirling into Abeloth, seeped into him, filling him with greasy nausea. But the light side rushed in, flowing in from all sides, pouring through him like fire. A golden glow began to rise from his skin - cells literally bursting with the power of the Force-and Luke felt them both start upward again. Abeloth countered, hissing in anger, and they hovered a hand span above the floor. A tremendous crack echoed down from the vaulted ceiling.

-- Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

Seems like he's using Force Light to purge himself of the dark side that was seeping into him, and it also appears to repulse Abeloth and anger her, although I concede that she wasn't really "hurt". Still, Palpatine, as a lesser Force wielder, could well be.

And yeah, it's not on Wollf's RT.

1. Except this is a morals on scenario. And Palpatine losing a duel and getting his hand sliced off is not a plot device, lmfao. He simply lost. Just because you can deflect lightsaber attacks with the Force, which the likes of even Shaak Ti and Kylo Ren can do, doesn't mean you're permanently immune to lightsaber attacks, morals on or off.

2. Sorry, their second duel in DE. Palpatine clearly uses Lightning at the start but is still defeated in a duel and his Lightning didn't save him there.

3. Too bad Luke is faster than Yoda (and Palpatine).

4. Ah. However, once again, the quote is saying that the stream of Lightning between the two is bending towards Palpatine, that's all. In other words, at that moment, he's losing the Lightning-Tutaminis tug-of-war with Yoda.

Besides, Yoda, a near-equal to Palpatine, was clearly affected by Palpatine's Lightning. It doesn't make sense that the Emperor could casually shrug it off considering he's barely more powerful than Yoda to begin with.

5. Not sure what the most recent one is. I do know that some sources like The Complete Visual Dictionary seem to argue both.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And yeah, it's not on Wollf's RT.

I thought it was Oneness and didn't wanna add "Oneness" feats, tbh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Hmm... it's this. Used to think it was Oneness but it doesn't seem like it:

Seems like he's using Force Light to purge himself of the dark side that was seeping into him, and it also appears to repulse Abeloth and anger her, although I concede that she wasn't really "hurt". Still, Palpatine, as a lesser Force wielder, could well be.

And yeah, it's not on Wollf's RT.

That's definitely Oneness. Not sure why you think otherwise.

Because he's specifically summoning the light side to wash away darkness, not become one with the Force. Force Light is something you can actually summon on a whim, unlike Oneness. The only thing that suggests it might be Oneness is the cells bursting with power bit, but that might just be the degree of his usage of Force Light.

Um, the golden glow means it was Oneness, not Force Light, doesn't it?

Anyway, I'll respond to the rest of your points later.

It could just be him illuminating himself with Light.

I mean, if it's Oneness, then that's a seriously shit case of it. But then again, it's Troy Denning.

1. Nowhere does the OP say this is a morals on scenario. It specifically says CIS is off meaning Palpatine wouldn't even daw his lightsaber, since he isn't holding back here.

2. That's because he channeled his lightning through the blade. We know what his lightning does at maximum to lightsaber blades (see his fight with Mace) so logic would dictate he isn't using it at full potency when he is channeling it through an object he doesn't want to damage.

The only reason lightning didn't save him was because he was holding back, which he isn't here.

3. Unless you're suggesting Luke is so fast he'd blitz Sidious, I do not see the point of stating the obvious. So long as Sidious can contend with Luke in a saber duel, he can also use lightning in close quarters just as effectively as he would at a distance, and would use it against Luke over a lightsaber.

4. And as it's bending towards him, I wonder what happens next. As I have suggested numerous times (and backed them up), it would hit Palpatine. You have provided no alternative whatsoever here.

The only way in which Yoda was affected was getting thrown backwards. He tanked it otherwise just fine. In fact, I hadn't thought about this before, so thanks. If Yoda can tank Palpatine's lightning, then so can Palpatine himself. 👆

/case closed

5. Provide the quote saying he was scarred from the Dictionary, please.

1. I come from a debating background where we assume it's morals on unless stated otherwise. That being said, I agree for DE Palpatine that it should be CIS to engage in a duel, except it's worth noting that historically even extremely powerful people engage in duels with beings of or greater power than themselves. So that possibility is not entirely ruled out.

2. I'm talking about Palpatine sitting Luke down with a direct burst of Lightning. I didn't notice it being channeled through his lightsaber.

3. It proves the example you brought up isn't really feasible here since Luke is faster. If he disarms Palpatine, he could probably finish him off before the Emperor could fire Lightning.

4. You didn't back anything up. You gave me two examples of the Lightning stream itself bending towards him; again, this is the stream between the two of them. Just because it bends one way or another doesn't mean it's hitting anyone. The fact that you've yet to provide a source that actually proves that Sidious was hit is particularly telling. You proved that the stream between the two of them bent one way, which in of itself means nothing. You haven't proven that it hit the Emperor.

Nowhere has Yoda tanked it just fine. In the film he's briefly incapacitated by the initial Lightning surge, and even if he feigned unconsciousness, that doesn't mean he tanked it freely. The RotS novel notes that Yoda was being scorched into "smoldering huddle of clothing and green flesh" even when he was using Tutaminis. When he takes the full blast, he goes flying, smashes against a wall, and falls to the ground (presumably stunned since he couldn't do anything about it). Yoda's also noted to be stunned (or was it half-stunned?) by the final explosion in the RotS junior novel. He clearly can't just take the Emperor's Lightning to no ill effect.

5. Don't have access to it right now. Ask WolfRazer (ZenWolf here); he posted the quote, IIRC.

1. It is CIS for any iteration of Palpatine to engage in a duel, save for the pre-TPM ones. And no, there's no possibility for Palpatine to draw his saber here, since CIS is off

2. Palpatine would certainly be able to break Luke's lightsaber with lightning, but I'm not sure if he'd be able to down Luke with it.

3. Too bad Palpatine isn't going to draw his saber in the first place so this is a moot point.

4. I have told you that it would not make any sense for Sidious to be described as "doomed" in that situation if the lightning were not hitting him. More concrete evidence I cannot provide, but you've not even addressed that singular point which I've raised.

The definition of "smolder" is to burn without flames i.e. to have smoke come out of you. That's the extent of the damage Yoda took, without Tutaminis, so I'd definitely say he tanked it without much trouble, as he feigned unconsciousness, per the junior novel.

But more to the point: if Yoda, and Palpatine, can take hits from something more potent than a lightsaber to the face without much damage, then what's Luke's lightsaber going to do, in a scenario where Palpatine isn't holding back?

Luke and Sidious are pretty even at these points tbh, but I'm leaning slightly towards Luke.