Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Because your condescending disposition is rather droll in light of your own fallacies.
Translation: "I have no f*cking idea, Borbarad. Probably I'm afraid to get verbally abused for being a nobody who can't come up with a coherent argument, even if it would bite my ass off". Yup. That sounds right.
Let's review shall we? First, you claim entire screenplays are G-canon, when they very clearly are not.
The scripts are G-Canon much like everything seen in the movies that is included in the novelizations is G-Canon. And it remains G-canon until a ret-con happens. Point being: You listed ret-cons and attempted to attack the status of the scripts from there. Does that make sense? Hell no. You lose.
Second, you are now claiming that Sidious sought additional powers in Empire's End. I can only assume you've either never read Empire's End, or possess insufficient memory of the material. Palpatine never pursues new powers; instead, he seeks out the ancient Sith spirits on Korriban in order to command that they restore his contaminated flesh.
Oh. And by what means would the actually have done this, pal? Maybe by using force techniques that Sidious believed to exist but he didn't know about? Maybe the same technique that Nadd used to heal Kun? That would make sense, wouldn't it?
That aside they could have equipped him with a technique to generate himself a new body, which appeared to have existed in the knowledge trove of Naga Sadow. If Sidious was aware of that (and mastered it!!!), why would he need a clone body at all? Hell. Exar Kun, as mentioned in the JA-sourcebook was about to turn his spirit form back into a regular being by draining force power from Luke's students. Why wouldn't Sidious in his spirit form able to do the same, provided he must have mastered that technique too?
But back to the original point: The Sith Lords didn't have any means to do something to Sidious beside using their force abilities, which translates into Sidious wanted to use knowledge / power that he didn't have access to himself but that the Ancient Sith had access to. Point being: I'm completely right, you're wrong.
When this fails, they inform him of the location of Anakin Solo, whom he's planned to use as his new host body since the first Dark Empire. The power he needs to accomplish this--transfer essence--has been known to him for quite some time prior to Dark Empire.
So after begging them to heal his clone body, which he wasn't capable of, he begs him to track the Jedi Children for him, which means that they are again using the force in a manner that Sidious couldn't?
Wow. You've just added another instance to torpede your own opinion to the scene. Damn effective debating there, jabroni. Maybe I should just lean back and keep watching your self-ownage here.
Third, you claim that the material present in the Dark Empire Sourcebook is S-canon. This rebuttal is dubious at best, given that S-canon generally covers material predating the Thrawn trilogy, such as the Marvel comics. Give me a statement from Leland Chee explaining how the DESB is S-canon, and I will concede. While you're at it, give me the quote from Mr. Chee saying that background information provided by sourcebooks is not C-canon.
You do realize that I already knocked you little quote out, thereby destroying your entire argument. Do you really want me to keep humiliating your lack of debating skills and ability to use logical reasoning?
The Holocron database was created in the year 2000. Before that, there wasn't any real database for SW canon, leading to the possibility that all works released prior to that year (with exception of the movies) may actually contain S-Canon elements or be judged as S-Canon. The only - apparent - way to check canon status is if elements from a certain source re-appear in C-Canon (or G-Canon) material.
For this one would need to check the editor history of certain elements present in certain sources, which you apparently wouldn't give a crap about doing, provided that you take anything literal.
Which would still completely ignore the fact that a statement given at point in time "X" does not include information relased at a later point in time "Y". And also the entire intention behind the Sourcebooks.
But who cares about that? It doesn't matter at all, because whether the quote is canon or not: it still can't be used to prove anything because of it's vague nature. Again: I win, you lose.
N
I recall a training exercise in either DN or LOTF. I don't recall it that well but I think it was the other council members vs Luke. I think he handles them easily. Kind of like Yoda's thing.
I think that was Legacy of the Force. Fury? (I never bought that one, but I did flip through it.)
I'd like to see the whole passage, though. The problem is that while Luke's superiority over the rest of the Council is pretty much unquestionable, it also happened to be a training exercise.
Originally posted by Gideon
As something of a spectator in this argument, since my opinion on this issue is well-known (I think Palpatine is absolutely capable of killing Skywalker, even as far as Fate of the Jedi, for those who don't know), I'll tell you this: I'm not even sure why the extent of Leia's intervention was brought up at all. The fact that Luke had help at all is what matters.
Because if there was just a small intervention of Leia, leading to Luke defeating Sidious, his post-DE persona could most likely score that victory on his own, given the dramatic increase of power / ability / knowledge Luke went through in the 30 years after that.
I agree that he could (as in is capable of) kill the Emperor, but I read the majority of Legacy of the Force (with the exception of Fury) and I saw Luke lose badly to a a Vader-esque cyborg-woman he defeated before Dark Empire.
That formula isn't absolute and it's certainly not enough (for me, at least) to conclude this discussion.
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm curious to see more of Skywalker's positive lightsaber duels. Having argued this contest for so long, the more prominent examples are from the Legacy of the Force series, where he fails to defeat Lumiya, then defeats her a second time, and struggles against Jacen in the middle of battle-rage.
NJO also provides some darn good examples. Unless you want to suppose that Luke's victories were inferior to Sidious's victories. FOTJ alone said that Jacen was the 2nd greatest swordsman in the galaxy. You can't find anyone better than that for Luke to test his mettle against, and he won.
I mean, Sidious's ability with a saber pretty much comes down to his owning of the B team, ability to prolong a duel with Mace, and getting disarmed by Yoda, am I right?
There are many many many accolades about Luke's lightsaber prowess, in ADDITION to his feats.
Originally posted by Gideon
I agree that he [b]could (as in is capable of) kill the Emperor, but I read the majority of Legacy of the Force (with the exception of Fury) and I saw Luke lose badly to a a Vader-esque cyborg-woman he defeated before Dark Empire.That formula isn't absolute and it's certainly not enough (for me, at least) to conclude this discussion. [/B]
You yourself conceded before that Luke would take sabers/all out but not Force.
Luke also needed luck and an extra light saber, and mara jade's help to defeat a single destroyer droid. The one most ridiculous moment in perhap all of star wars. The combat formula isn't concrete. We can't ever really say for sure that Luke is going to win 10 out of 10 fights over anyone, even say, Han Solo. Han might get in a lucky shot.
TJ
NJO also provides some darn good examples.
I'd like to see them and please be as detailed as possible.
TJ
Unless you want to suppose that Luke's victories were inferior to Sidious's victories.
Possibly.
TJ
FOTJ alone said that Jacen was the 2nd greatest swordsman in the galaxy.
Source and exact quote, please.
TJ
You can't find anyone better than that for Luke to test his mettle against, and he won.
He won the fight, there's no denying it. But he also was in the middle of battle-rage (we all know how that tends to enhance one's skills), the element of surprise (which enabled him to focus on the confrontation ahead, unlike Jacen), and he had assistance from Ben.
TJ
I mean, Sidious's ability with a saber pretty much comes down to his owning of the B team,
Careful. Those swordsmen were acclaimed for their ability; I've provided the statements and sources before.
If you'd be so kind as to provide similar accolades for Lumiya and Jacen?
TJ
ability to prolong a duel with Mace,
The novelization indicates that his out-of-practice skill was sufficient enough to equal Mace's Vaapad, the deadliest fighting form.
TJ
and getting disarmed by Yoda, am I right?
Prove he was disarmed.
TJ
There are many many many accolades about Luke's lightsaber prowess, in ADDITION to his feats.
Me
I'd like to see them and please be as detailed as possible.
Originally posted by Gideon
I agree that he [b]could (as in is capable of) kill the Emperor, but I read the majority of Legacy of the Force (with the exception of Fury) and I saw Luke lose badly to a a Vader-esque cyborg-woman he defeated before Dark Empire.That formula isn't absolute and it's certainly not enough (for me, at least) to conclude this discussion. [/B]
Are you talking about the fight on the space station where Lumiya was rigged with explosives? Luke was damaged badly in that fight, and by no means controlled it, but if I remember correctly, he DID beat her,right? He just couldn't kill her or she would have exploded.
Edit: Luke lost the duel (he was disarmed and on his back), but won the fight (he shot her).
TJ
Luke also needed luck and an extra light saber, and mara jade's help to defeat a single destroyer droid. The one most ridiculous moment in perhap all of star wars. The combat formula isn't concrete. We can't ever really say for sure that Luke is going to win 10 out of 10 fights over anyone, even say, Han Solo. Han might get in a lucky shot.
Which is why there needs to be more of a discussion than just repeating "Luke nearly beat Sidious in DE, he got better, therefore he wins."
we have done those SOOO many times Gideon. I don't think there is ENOUGH out there to satisfy you, because you have been aware of them in the past, even if you have, like me, forgotten some of them.
I'm not planning on hunting them down. I'd have to go to a library probably to find NJO, i have most of the LotF, but finding the page numbers and typing them out again? And Dark Nest? I'd need to amazon it.
Before I do that much, I'll settle for you being unconvinced.
🙂
If anyone else wants to do the work, be my guest.
Oh, also, in reference to the Sidious post:
The B team was referred to as "Perhaps some of the greatest swordsbeings the jedi order had ever produced." Keyword: Perhaps. Then they went in, and proved it wasn't true.
Kit Fisto is the only one to have any other accolades to his name at all.
What you said about Mace is true. its why I posted it as a feat, i was not meaning to belittle sidious by saying it.
With Yoda: You yourself posted the place from the screenplay where Sidious was disarmed. It also says he disarmed him in the Jr. Novelization if what Elok posted is correct.
TJ
The B team was referred to as "Perhaps some of the greatest swordsbeings the jedi order had ever produced." Keyword: Perhaps. Then they went in, and proved it wasn't true.
No, I was referring to the line in the Complete Visual Dictionary where it calls the three of them "celebrated swordmasters," in addition to the opinions of Obi-Wan Kenobi from the Stover novelization and their individual accolades from either the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia or the official databank.
It helps when you're aware of all the evidence before you make blind assumptions about "the B team."
Now where are your accolades for Jacen and Lumiya?
TJ
Kit Fisto is the only one to have any other accolades to his name at all.
False. All three of them are given accolades in their respective entries in both the Encyclopedia and databank; Kit Fisto is the one with the most notable feats to his name.
TJ
With Yoda: You yourself posted the place from the screenplay where Sidious was disarmed.
Go back to where I posted it and read the subsequent points that discredit the screenplay, in that instance, as a credible source.
TJ
It also says he disarmed him in the Jr. Novelization if what Elok posted is correct.
Where are junior novelizations in the canon hierarchy?
Originally posted by Gideon
I agree that he could (as in is capable of) kill the Emperor, but I read the majority of Legacy of the Force (with the exception of Fury) and I saw Luke lose badly to a a Vader-esque cyborg-woman he defeated before Dark Empire.
I attempted to explain this once: Luke had his son first "brainwashed" and then threatened by his very own nephew. Then he had his beloved wife killed. And we both know that Luke is always best when he's able of maintaining a clear focus on the force. This is a pivotal point in pretty much all of his "over the top" showing. He remains calm, focused - even if in danger - and solves the situation with a DXM manouver.
There has to be an explanation for Luke being inable to overcome an opponent that he has beaten before under apparently much less favorable circumstances from his point of view.
That formula isn't absolute and it's certainly not enough (for me, at least) to conclude this discussion.
Well. Of course there isn't an absolute in that debate, because absolutes don't exists in the realm of VS fights (remember my words?), even when you have a rematch (change of circumstances, surroundings) or stake the odds against one character (hell: Han Solo blinded accidentally nearly killing Boba Fett by swinging a stick around, anybody?).
But in a VS-fight, the general rule is to take the character in his "top shape" capable of executing all abilities he used (with the exception of such unreasonable in 1vs1 situations - e.g. force storms) that he could perform all by himself before.
That would leave Luke with:
- invisibility
- turning himself unsenseable in the force
- becoming an immoveable object (translation: impenetrable force defense)
- at least one instakill ability (green sparks)
- force offense enough to pin somebody with the power of at least Vader (Caedus) down with apparent ease
So ignoring Luke's character traits, PIS / CIS and the fact that SW stories need a plot that lasts longer than the three words "Simply call Luke", Master Skywalker could simply wipe anybody from existance because, technically, they can't even fight him (invisibile, unsenseable, impenetrable force defense), while he could simply assault any opponent like a WoW Rogue on crack aimed with a lightsaber.
Of course, that wouldn't happen in universe and it's pretty pointless to have a VS-match without anything that could be recognized as a fight happening. But technically, every match involving past Black Fleet Crisis Luke should end with a lightsaber blade out of nowhere through one of his opponents vital spots.
Couldn't Luke just cloak himself in the Force whilst making himself invisible as well, and then just decapitate Palpatine?
And in the Force fight, he could just root himself in the Force like he did in Dark Nest; Palpatine won't be able to TK him, and if he uses Force lightning Luke just activates his lightsaber to block it, and, sense he's rooting himself in the Force so that a supermassive black hole can't move him, the lightning will just bounce off.